PMTS Two Footed Release

[JSDOS]

If the head is over the "stance foot" (PMTS term) and weight balanced on down hill ski, there is no PUSH, just a release of edges simultaneously without holding the CoM back or trying to counter balance or contort. ..... In real skiing don't we want the CoM to move smoothly and uninterrupted through transition? ....

I understand one of the primary differences we see in this exercise is the emphasis placed on counter balancing vs. more inclination at edge change. ...

I want to own the whole spectrum not just the piece that somebody believes is "the way" to ski.

CUT / EDITED BY JSDOS for discussion...

I see what you mean. The intention or action of the belly button is not meant to create push. By which, I think you mean extra pressure on one or both skis to launch the COM down the hill, with a muscular move. I suppose there's some reactive tension that pushing the hips forward creates which moves down the legs and pressures the skis. And pushing the belly button towards the fall line needs some supportive pressure from the ground to happen. I'm not good enough with physics to detail it. Anyway, same happens with tipping / untipping. Although, I'd argue that it is easier to control or fine tune movements for the feet/ski unit with the feet than other parts of the body.

The hip, or belly button, move starts in the middle. The intent of the PTMS drill is to focus on feet first and go up the kinetic chain from there. Everything else that is noted or happened in the drill derives from foot movement - a specific foot movement. What is the intent of the drill? Of the instruction? So what should the feet do? That seems to me the essential difference in technique and organization of instruction.

A belly button, hip, extension move is a different skill, a different motion, and uses, as you point out, different drills. And of course we should consider the fact that Harb doesn't really like extension moves as a prime mover in general. So, he's not necessarily going to present it in his progression set.

Still, really like the spectrum concept. Just keep adding skills and tools and having fun playing with them.

 

[JSDOS]

I don't know. You've learned to recognize a blocking pole plant?
Blocking pole at 3:12. Same thing. Diana is so far over the downhill ski that there's a lot of momentum that's released. The pole is connected to the hand connected to the arm connected to the shoulder which pushes the body. Just like the bus below at 3:12.

Is it possible to create a static position from which a skier can stand in one place and reach downhill to touch or hold a pole upright without using the pole as the third leg in a tripod? If she could lift the pole out of the snow just before starting the drill would it still be a blocking pole plant?

You know what? Nevermind.... this sidebar would just move the thread off point. Thanks.

 

[bud heishman]

How much tension do you need and why?

I don't believe anyone has answered my question?...

Regarding "pushing" the CoM into the release, I do not feel any push? I don't really understand this insistence that a push needs to occur? When you perform the PMTS release do you feel you are holding you CoM back? Why can't this be one fluid movement where the edges are released with the feet while the CM simultaneously follows along? This is how I want to ski.

Is it possible to create a static position from which a skier can stand in one place and reach downhill to touch or hold a pole upright without using the pole as the third leg in a tripod? If she could lift the pole out of the snow just before starting the drill would it still be a blocking pole plant?

You know what? Nevermind.... this sidebar would just move the thread off point. Thanks.

I think we would all agree, Yes it is possible and no it wouldn't be a blocking plant if it wasn't there. The skier can block muscularly as well though not as strongly.

 

[bud heishman]

CUT / EDITED BY JSDOS for discussion...

I see what you mean. The intention or action of the belly button is not meant to create push. By which, I think you mean extra pressure on one or both skis to launch the COM down the hill, with a muscular move. I suppose there's some reactive tension that pushing the hips forward creates which moves down the legs and pressures the skis. And pushing the belly button towards the fall line needs some supportive pressure from the ground to happen. I'm not good enough with physics to detail it. Anyway, same happens with tipping / untipping. Although, I'd argue that it is easier to control or fine tune movements for the feet/ski unit with the feet than other parts of the body.

The hip, or belly button, move starts in the middle. The intent of the PTMS drill is to focus on feet first and go up the kinetic chain from there. Everything else that is noted or happened in the drill derives from foot movement - a specific foot movement. What is the intent of the drill? Of the instruction? So what should the feet do? That seems to me the essential difference in technique and organization of instruction.

A belly button, hip, extension move is a different skill, a different motion, and uses, as you point out, different drills. And of course we should consider the fact that Harb doesn't really like extension moves as a prime mover in general. So, he's not necessarily going to present it in his progression set.

Still, really like the spectrum concept. Just keep adding skills and tools and having fun playing with them.

It is possible to release the edges and keep the predominance of our weight over the down hill ski while allowing the hips to move over the feet which would demonstrate absolutely no push off is needed. In practice I allow the pressure to transition as I release edges so at approximately "skis flat" my weight is 50/50 but again this requires NO push off though as momentum builds a more active weight shift would occur more to balance than to cause any redirection. Good skiing should not require any significant push off if the edge change was begun before the extension.

 

[JSDOS]

It is possible to release the edges and keep the predominance of our weight over the down hill ski while allowing the hips to move over the feet which would demonstrate absolutely no push off is needed....

OK. This is much clearer. Thanks.

I read this as simply another way to create edge transition rolling from ski to ski - in this case, downhill to uphill, right?

Much of the adamant differences between the two systems really drill down to method. PMTS (and the Austrians) see the kinetic chain rising from the feet - and only from the feet. PSIA is more fluid (freaking revolutionary Americans!) and lets controlled athletic forces introduce movements as needed within a differently defined model.

 

[razie]

Did a bunch of them today... I am curious if you guys tried any and have confirmed that the respective pole plant has absolutely no rotational role in this...?

 

[LiquidFeet]

In Diana's video, watch the tails of her two skis. Expand the video so you can see details. Find a shadow on the snow near the two ski tails as she starts. Then watch how close the tails remain to that shadow as the skis turn to point downhill. They don't move away from the shadow I'm watching more than an inch or so until both skis are pointing pretty much downhill.

When I did the stationary two-footed release, that was my goal -- to keep the tails as stationary as possible for as long as possible as the skis pivoted.
I was able to do it, but not as slowly as Diana. Most of my weight was on the inside/downhill ski. I definitely used the pole. The pivot happened as a result of my body unwinding, and the pole plant worked as the stabilizer.
But I am no PMTS expert. Heluvaskier is.

If he says he can do the stationary two-footed release without any poles, I suspect he can. And if he can, so can Diana and HH. I expect it would look a little different, though, without the body leaning so far downhill to start the whole thing. And I don't know if the ski tails would stay put for so long.

 

[Josh Matta]

well I can do these with rotating my pelvis just like Diane but my skis to not diveage like hers do.

If I add no rotary and just tip my feet I either sideslip or if I keep tipping I end up rail road tracking down the hill.

 

[razie]

So @LiquidFeet - you did use the poles for rotational purposes, i.e. on top of just support? I didn't think that's possible, it being so far forward. I did a few and certainly did not use the pole for rotational purposes. In fact I lightened the pole and pulled it out just as the skis released, before they had a chance to start rotating at all, 2-3 times just to make sure.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Nope. I leaned on that darn pole. I did not push myself around it, I just leaned on it to get my COM out there like Diana. Notice that the pole is placed downhill at or slightly behind the heel piece of the downhill ski.

Once the skis started turning I picked the pole up.

The rotational action was provided by my body untwisting. I allowed that to happen. Choosing to allow the body to unwind played a part, as did the pole tip placement and the fact that my arm was attached to the pole.
The untwisting of the body dragged the inside ski around, once it was released. The tails of the skis did not move much, as in the video. I got at least that part right. Muscle tension was required to drag the uphill ski, still on its LTE, alongside the turning inside ski so they both turned at approximately the same time.

Diana intentionally maintains a bowlegged stance, with the inside ski flat and the outside ski staying on its LTE for a bit. For that reason some muscle tension is necessary to keep that outside ski moving alongside the rotating inside ski.

You need to know that the PMTS folks will have ONE WAY to do this right.
Anyone doing it differently will be seen as doing it the wrong way.
We both probably fall into that category, Razie.

 

[Rod9301]

Liquid, you don't need any rotation in this.
If you just flatten the skis, and you are centered or maybe a bit forward, your tips will seek the fall line, and as you reach it, start tiping the inside ski.
The Pole plant is definitely not blocking.

I cab du a tfr without poles.

 

[Monique]

Okay, watching that video - whether that pole plant is blocking or not, I don't see why it's needed. If anything it seems like it breaks momentum. And stabby poles as opposed to gentle poles seem like wasted effort to me. Maybe I've been brainwashed by PSIA.

 

[markojp]

Okay, watching that video - whether that pole plant is blocking or not, I don't see why it's needed. If anything it seems like it breaks momentum. And stabby poles as opposed to gentle poles seem like wasted effort to me. Maybe I've been brainwashed by PSIA.

There's no PSIA pole plant per se. 'Versatility' is the word. Chose the pole plant/touch/brush according to terrain, tactics, and desired outcome. A big tool box is better than a small one.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Liquid, you don't need any rotation in this.
If you just flatten the skis, and you are centered or maybe a bit forward, your tips will seek the fall line, and as you reach it, start tiping the inside ski.
The Pole plant is definitely not blocking.

I cab du a tfr without poles.

Rod,
Can you do it without the pole and without the counter?
As in, standing with shoulders facing the same way the skis are pointed, either centered or a bit forward?
While keeping the uphill ski on LTE as the downhill ski starts to turn simply by being flattened?

I can do something like this, but I have my upper body turned to look downhill when I start.
I flatten the skis and my body unwinds as the skis start to move.
They turn to point downhill instead of doing a sideslip because the body unwinds.
And the tails of my skis travel as they start turning.
When I do this, I call it a "dead-stop turn."

The tails don't stay put, as in Diana's video. And there's still the upper body unwinding.
How do you get the skis to turn instead of doing a sideslip?

 

[razie]

yeah - I think the purpose of that TFR pole plant is to give some support in the beginning and make sure the body flows the right way - forwards down the hill.

I don't think that's how you're meant to ski all the time - they usually use a flowing pole touch concept for every day skiing, rather than a full strong "plant" - which is for use in bumps etc - depending on situation.

p.s. just double checked and the two kinds discussed there are the "flowing pole swing" and the "stabilizing pole plant".

cheers

 

[James]

"stabilizing" pole plant = blocking pole plant
Just as
"Lift Line Maneuver Device", "LMD" = Wedge
But that goes back to either the 1st book or instructors manual and never caught on for obvious reasons.

So Diana's video is called "Stationary Release" perhaps there's a difference?
She's "forward" in that start position? .

 

[Rod9301]

I can do the tfr with my upper body perpendicular to the slope.
There is no unwinding needed. When you look back, the tails leave a track that's just forward and down, done with rotation, the tails go up a little, no bueno

 

[Living Proof]

My .02 on the stationary release, with the caveat that I read and try to use Harb's movements.

The intent of the drill is to learn how to release the skis, start the ski tips sliding downhill, which starts a a completed brushed or skidded turn. Harb states no rotational forces are present in the exercise. The reason the turn works is that the hips are pre-rotated or countered prior to releasing the skis creating a great amount of stored body energy just waiting to be released. My thinking is the pole plant helps to get into a position that creates the energy and helps direct it downhill. When the skis are released, the stored energy provides rotating energy for the brushed turn without additional body movements on the part of the skier. During the turn, it is necessary to start moving the hips in a counter direction to the turn to a) start to check the rotation of the skis, and, b) to provide the highly countered position at turns end to begin the next turn. How much can be seen in video vs what the demonstrator is trying to do the hips is open to interpretation. That's my story and I am sticking to it.

@James my experience is that the pole plant does not provide any energy per se, it is much more about balance support and creating a position favorable for the outcome. Blocking vs Stablizing vs tapping etc could be worthy of an independent thread, but, I don't think it is relevant here.

I'm hoping that Bud and Phil can produce a video of the PSIA equivalent. Just my guess, but I think if the hips are not countered prior to release, then, somehow the body has to provide rotational movement. I know someplace on the net there is video of Josh doing some nice Falling Leaf, a movement not to far from what Diana is trying show during release ( IMHO).

My criticism of the Diana video is that it attempts to show too much. That drill is much more about the release and sliding of the skis. It gets screwed up with emphasis establishing countered positions at turns end. The keep-it-simple-stupid philosophy gets over-complicated. Yeah, the end is part of the entire Harb movement pattern , but, there are plenty of other Harb drills that focus on setting up for release.

 

[James]

@James my experience is that the pole plant does not provide any energy per se, it is much more about balance support and creating a position favorable for the outcome. Blocking vs Stablizing vs tapping etc could be worthy of an independent thread, but, I don't think it is relevant here.

Well it's relevant only in that it's there. Not only there but emphasized. Saying there are "no rotational forces" present is saying from muscular input of the skier. The blocking pole is an outside force on the skier. It's most definitely there.
The solution is to do it without the pole.

 

[bud heishman]

Just because "someone" says any type of rotation or pivoting is not there, does not necessarily make it so!

If there is anticipation or any muscular twisting and the edges are released there will be an affect. If the pole tip is in the snow down the hill from the feet and any pressure is put on that pole, there will be an affect. If you want to sell me on this rotationless release, begin with your hips and shoulders facing the ski tips and don't use a pole plant and let me see what you can do?

This argument seems so pointless and changing the terminology does not change the mechanics, sorry.