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PMTS Two Footed Release

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Josh Matta

Josh Matta

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@LiquidFeet Diane ski tips do not stay even, they diverge and due to the minimilazied hip socket rotation their hips turn with their ski.

I know what I am doing is not a 2 footed release in that video.

If I am have groomed snow today Ill get a video from a stop but my tips will not diverage like Diane's.
 

bud heishman

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And why is push off bad in and of itself? PSIA has a task in the level II test called "leapers" where the skier extends aggressively and changes edges in the air. The task requires the skier develop a strong platform from which to leap then demonstrate and accurate trajectory of the CoM to change edges in the air and land on the new set of inside edges, carving cleanly around the next turn. This task demonstrates a strong push off yet there is absolutely no stemming? An extension to change edges does not necessarily cause a stem as PMTS would suggest!

A "rotary push off" IS bad, while a fulcrum turn (braquage) is good, two different mechanisms.

The key to avoiding stemming is an accurate trajectory across the skis with the CoM whether that be with an extension to release or a flexion to release.
 
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LiquidFeet

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Diana is happy to have her tips diverge. She tips both skis to their LTEs, going bow-legged, to begin the TFR. Then she flattens the inside/downhill ski to release, holding that uphill/new outside ski on its LTE long enough to make sure that it does not get onto its new edge before the new inside ski does. This is all intentional.

PMTS has a drill called "Ride the Pig" which has the skier holding both skis on their LTEs while doing a straight run. Learning to do this increases the skier's ability to purge the habitual flattening of the new outside ski first. Skiers are taught to hold the uphill/new outside ski on its LTE while flattening the new inside ski with flexion as they begin new turns.

Diana is especially good at holding that bow-legged stance, and it shows up clearly in her videos. As a consequence her tips diverge. I suspect that for the PMTS folks, diverging tips are preferred over converging tips.

Much of PMTS teaching is focused on getting rid of the stem entry that so many people have because they focus on the new outside ski instead of the new inside ski. PMTS attributes the predominance of this outside ski focus among recreational skiers to the turn entry extension move off of that ski. I'm not sure this is the fault of any lessons people had in the past. However, it is common around here for recreational skiers who don't take lessons regularly to focus exclusively on the new outside ski and pretty much ignore the inside ski.

I'm sure the people who are committed to the PMTS way of doing things will be able to improve on my explanations. Everything PMTS has a very rigid way of being done correctly, and HH makes sure people know that there are the incorrect ways of doing things, almost correct ways, and the one and only actually correct way. Only the actually correct way counts. I don't know enough to get those details right in my explanations, since I'm not one of those committed people.
 

bud heishman

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Much of PMTS teaching is focused on getting rid of the stem entry that so many people have because they focus on the new outside ski instead of the new inside ski. PMTS attributes the predominance of this outside ski focus among recreational skiers to the turn entry extension move off of that ski. I'm not sure this is the fault of any lessons people had in the past. However, it is common around here for recreational skiers who don't take lessons regularly to focus exclusively on the new outside ski and pretty much ignore the inside ski.

I'm sure the people who are committed to the PMTS way of doing things will be able to improve on my explanations. Everything PMTS has a very rigid way of being done correctly, and HH makes sure people know that there are the incorrect ways of doing things, almost correct ways, and the one and only actually correct way. Only the actually correct way counts. I don't know enough to get those details right in my explanations, since I'm not one of those committed people.

"one and only correct way"? Therein lies the problem. While eliminating the stem is something ALL organizations strive to achieve and is an honorable goal, the truth lies in the accuracy of the movement across the skis which can be done with extension or relaxation or retraction. Who made Harb the supreme authority? Oh, that's right.... Harb did.
 

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And why is push off bad in and of itself? PSIA has a task in the level II test called "leapers" where the skier extends aggressively and changes edges in the air. The task requires the skier develop a strong platform from which to leap then demonstrate and accurate trajectory of the CoM to change edges in the air and land on the new set of inside edges, carving cleanly around the next turn. This task demonstrates a strong push off yet there is absolutely no stemming? An extension to change edges does not necessarily cause a stem as PMTS would suggest!
Bud,
Take a look at the below Harb video demonstrating the "leaper" movement you describe. Perhaps, it is the only time where he can be seen extending, or pushing-off, to start a turn. It is very well known that Harb is fully committed to flexing legs to release and tipping skis as the most efficient movements to start turn. We all know his coaching mechanics have been beaten to death in the Epic ski forums. What I'd really like is for this forum to focus on ways of helping the members ski better.

 

bud heishman

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I whole heartedly agree LP! and Harb and PSIA and CSIA and NZSIA, etc... all have valid thoughts on doing just that! PMTS has some great stuff, nobody denies this. It would be nice if the devout PMTS'ers would recognize and embrace other organizations merits too! Just because one person says there is only one correct way to ski well, doesn't mean it is so. Keep an open mind and your skiing will continue to progress.
 

JSDOS

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...I don't think the rotation is the general of cause stemming, the extension/push off would be.

I agree, and would add that first there is a skier's poor balance skill which is enabled and supported by a tripod - the wedge. Add fear, and the stem move is ready whenever needed. Extension and push off is a means to the stem.

..Much of PMTS teaching is focused on getting rid of the stem entry that so many people have because they focus on the new outside ski instead of the new inside ski. PMTS attributes the predominance of this outside ski focus among recreational skiers to the turn entry extension move off of that ski. I'm not sure this is the fault of any lessons people had in the past. However, it is common around here for recreational skiers who don't take lessons regularly to focus exclusively on the new outside ski and pretty much ignore the inside ski.

This too makes a lot of sense to me. Learning a new way to use the inside ski was a huge benefit for me. I thank Harb for that.

"one and only correct way"? Therein lies the problem. While eliminating the stem is something ALL organizations strive to achieve and is an honorable goal, the truth lies in the accuracy of the movement across the skis which can be done with extension or relaxation or retraction. Who made Harb the supreme authority? Oh, that's right.... Harb did.

I don't know if PTMS so much blames extension as the cause for stemming as it prescribes a specific treatment for the cure. In all fairness, if Harb creates the systematic progression and prescriptions of moves and drills for his vision of the path to expert skiing, then he would be the authority. I don't think he asked for supreme authority over all skiing systems. Just his own. The dynamics of skiing are like the humans that use them, and probably more flexible.

Much can be created through flexibility.
 

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It would be nice if the devout PMTS'ers would recognize and embrace other organizations merits too! Just because one person says there is only one correct way to ski well, doesn't mean it is so. Keep an open mind and your skiing will continue to progress.

Bud,

It's the rare PMTS adherent who hasn't first been exposed to some country's local mainstream ski instruction or race coaching system or in fact many of them. We switch because we found something that works ... and works much better and faster than what we had before. Given those circumstances, many don't see much to embrace and recognize positively in the old way.

Personally, I have skied near and observed in clinic action all of the current PSIA national alpine team members except for the freestyle specialists (park n pipe's not my thing.) Given the option of a free private with my choice of demo teamer or paying full price for a random PMTS black level instructor, I have no doubt which would be a better investment of my time and energy. It's a pity because I'd love to be able to get top quality ski instruction without flying long distances. But it just ain't available.

What you don't seem to grok, Bud, is that we kept an open mind and that's how we discovered PMTS and that's why we were willing to give it a serious test run. And if anything better than PMTS were to come along, we'd be all over it. To date, nothing has.
 

bud heishman

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Can't blame you, but if you would like a list of names, just let me know. A coach and mentor who has a great understanding of skiing performance and all that contributes to optimum performance is not easy to find. I understand this, but know that there are these people in the ranks of PSIA, CSIA, etc.. Harb has done an excellent job of carving out a niche for himself and I applaud his marketing savy. I totally understand your view. Unfortunately it is only the very elite PSIA instructor who gets it. Take a run with Josh Matta at Stowe and start a conversation with him, you may be surprised!
 
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Josh Matta

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It not whether its better or worse it about what works for people. PSIA does not force people to teach a certain way or ski a certain way, there are ton of people who basically run their own program based on tons of different information, clinics and real world observations working/skiing basically every day. If you follow what I have been going for years if anything I have been more harsh towards the PSIA because of their lack of acknowledgement of aligning people, their lack of understanding simple idea such as the PMTS phantom move(sure we have everything in our skills concept to describe it but until it happens all at once you get stems/wedge that infect even the highest level of PSIA instructor) , and the issue I have with basically every instructional org that they refuse to acknowledge modern free ride equipment. I do not let PSIAer off any easier.

I am not so sure that a site that moderate out any varying point of view leads to open minds though, its sounds more like how an authoritarian would run a place, and not someone who is classical liberal seeking greater understanding.
 

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I am not so sure that a site that moderate out any varying point of view leads to open minds though, its sounds more like how an authoritarian would run a place

Recall that the reference site is not an open forum. It is a support and learning site for skiers who want to learn about that specific methodology for improving their skiing. It is not an avenue to debate [or attack in select cases] the material, author, or presentation. If someone wishes to debate/attack, there are plenty of open forums that can satisfy that obsession.
 
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Monique

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the issue I have with basically every instructional org that they refuse to acknowledge modern free ride equipment.

Could you please elaborate? Curious what specific types of equipment you mean.
 

Monique

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Recall that the reference site is not an open forum. It is a support and learning site for skiers who want to learn about that specific methodology for improving their skiing. It is not an avenue to debate [or attack in select cases] the material, author, or presentation. If someone wishes to debate/attack, there are plenty of open forums that can satisfy that obsession.

It occurs to me that when someone is first learning (and for skiing, that could be years), it might be best not to confuse them with multiple points of view, even if ultimately it leads to a better understanding of what is possible. Of course, you can't really control this since most people take lessons at multiple ski schools that may have divergent approaches ... but in theory, it might be better to gain a certain amount of expertise, or at least comfort, in one approach before trying something else.
 

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Could you please elaborate? Curious what specific types of equipment you mean.

I'm puzzled as well and I'm in PSIA. :) Skis? Horses for courses.
 

JSDOS

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It occurs to me that when someone is first learning (and for skiing, that could be years), it might be best not to confuse them with multiple points of view, even if ultimately it leads to a better understanding of what is possible. Of course, you can't really control this since most people take lessons at multiple ski schools that may have divergent approaches ... but in theory, it might be better to gain a certain amount of expertise, or at least comfort, in one approach before trying something else.

This would be cool. Really really hard to create a straightforward 5 step program to skiing when so many people have so many different steps !
 

razie

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If anyone was still wondering why the pole plant is done the way it is - I just stumbled over a nice, complete overview of that specific pole plant... while in the context of the pivot slips not TFRs, it covers the basics of how we use the pole in that situation (FF to 0:54).


As someone I think mentioned, indeed, being able to recognize the different uses of pole plants (i.e. blocking rotational movement versus promoting forward movement) is important for one's MA ability...

No doubt experts can make do without it, for that type of drill.

cheers
 
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James

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It's still a blocking pole plant when done from a standstill in the tfr. Sorry. Obviously that's not the point of the drill but denial of that is Orwellian.

There are no distinctions between types of block. Feel free to make them, but they're all referred to as blocking. Ie, planting the pole directly below feet or up by tips. The block in the tfr helps cause rotational movement.
Tried it this weekend. Very obvious.
 

razie

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Maybe so... but it's not just me and Warren S ... also Mikaela and Ted don't seem to agree with you though... about the use of the forward pole plant (i.e. reaching down the slope):

Ted-pole-forward.png


Here's her take on it (and Burke's):


She explicitly ties it to the forward double pole plant, of course it is... in contrast to the blocking pole plants, which are very different.

In racing we use them all, as needed, keen to match the different uses of the pole with the tactical needs...

cheers
 

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It's still a blocking pole plant when done from a standstill in the tfr. Sorry. Obviously that's not the point of the drill but denial of that is Orwellian.

There are no distinctions between types of block. Feel free to make them, but they're all referred to as blocking. Ie, planting the pole directly below feet or up by tips. The block in the tfr helps cause rotational movement.
Tried it this weekend. Very obvious.
Okemo Kid,

"Very obvious" is clear proof that you failed the exercise. You did something on snow, but it wasn't the PMTS two footed release. (You're not alone. It's rare for someone with your background to perform the exercise properly without lots of coaching)
 

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