PMTS Two Footed Release

[James]

Okemo Kid,

"Very obvious" is clear proof that you failed the exercise. You did something on snow, but it wasn't the PMTS two footed release. (You're not alone. It's rare for someone with your background to perform the exercise properly without lots of coaching)

It's all in the video of Diana, Harald and in the book by Harald.
You're all about video. It's all there.
I never said it can't be done without the pole either.
Your insistence on this matter does not help your cause.

So, what happens if you do it with the pole planted near your tips?

 

[James]

Maybe so... but it's not just me and Warren S ... also Mikaela and Ted don't seem to agree with you though... about the use of the forward pole plant (i.e. reaching down the slope):

Here's her take on it (and Burke's):


She explicitly ties it to the forward double pole plant, of course it is... in contrast to the blocking pole plants, which are very different.

In racing we use them all, as needed, keen to match the different uses of the pole with the tactical needs...

cheers

What are you talking about?
Different issue. Those are not blocking pole plants.

I really don't see the big deal. For some reason "blocking pole plant" incites denials, pm's with no explanations or lengthy explanations of other things. It's a small part of this drill. Y'all are making it a large part by being willfully blind.

 

[razie]

What are you talking about?
Different issue. Those are not blocking pole plants.

Exactly my point and everyone else's in those videos - a pole plant like Diana shows, reaching down the slope in the direction of the COM's travel is a forward pole plant, not a blocking pole plant, serves a different purpose (supporting even if there's no speed).

What are you talking about?
It's a small part of this drill.

Why didn't you say so sooner... I thought you were still anchored here:

As demoed in all of the videos this drill is the very definition of a blocking pole plant. The turning force is mainly coming from the pole. That's what "starts" the turn. That's not to say the release part has no value, but get real about what turns you the most. The block of the pole. It's like the point of a compass here.
Try this with no poles. The turning radius is huge. That's why the blocking pole plant for turning force.

I'm amazed no one has mentioned this. It's fundamental to the presentation and video.

I'm getting it from the demos. It's so obvious I'm not sure what the big deal is. It's what makes the turn happen quickly in that drill. I never said anything about skiing, we're talking about the tfr drill.

Call it an anchoring pole plant if that makes you and razie feel better. Diana literally braces against the pole.

Do it without the poles and see how long it takes to get the skis around. This isn't complicated. The pole supplies a torque to the body and a point around which the whole system pivots.

What happens if you do it with the pole planted near the tips instead of behind the heel? Likely you'll start a turn switch.

So dropping it in 3...2...1... dropped !

 

[Rod9301]

James, the turning force does not come from the pole at all.

It's really easy to do a release without the pole being planted at all.
Try it tomorrow

 

[ToddW]

So, what happens if you do it with the pole planted near your tips?

Presumably your skis would collide with the pole and your turn would either stop or you would fall (since the pole, if used, is kept planted until the fall line in this drill to serve as a gauge of distance travelled)

 

[James]

Presumably your skis would collide with the pole and your turn would either stop or you would fall (since the pole, if used, is kept planted until the fall line in this drill to serve as a gauge of distance travelled)

Sorry, should have said downhill from your tips. Or somewhere between toe and tip. Diana is planting 3-4 ft downhill.

There's a reason it gets planted downhill way behind the foot. And it's more than clearance.

Thought you were going to ask Harald about this?

 

[bud heishman]

Twist a popsicle stick and hold the top while releasing the bottom, what happens?

 

[Skistaff]

It is very interesting how such a simple and clear drill can take 10 pages to be explained.

 

[razie]

We keep going to square one (uhhh or rather... counter one-0-one??). Yes, the counter at the beginning provides some momentum as the skis are released, so the skier doesn't have to "manually" twist the skis. No, the pole doesn't factor into that. At that speed, the body's inertia is more than enough of a lever, just like it is for pivot slips .

In fact, the countered nature of the turn is what enables the turn to work as it does. Simply tipping the feet will not deliver the desired outcome… and often skiers rush to the outcome (getting the skis to turn) before they own the proper input movements, which introduces rotation into the turn—whether it be upper body or lower body.

The drill, done properly, is a good-deal more advanced than a standard pivot slip, however, a pivot slip can be a good build-up to the TFR in the sense that it trains hip discipline and counter at the hip/pelvis. I frequently use them as a warm up to get my CA firing from my hips.

I think the above was very clear and we haven't actually added anything to it the last 9 pages...

 

[Chris Geib]

Momentum and inertia when you begin standing still?????

 

[razie]

Momentum and inertia when you begin standing still?????

Physics is weird, right?

Inertia is the resistance of any physical object to any change in its state of motion (this includes changes to its speed, direction or state of rest).​

I did actually spend a few seconds considering torque vs momentum but what's being created from torque when the skis are releasing is momentum (angular, at the feet), so "provides momentum" is I think still correct.

To understand better: jump up and in the air twist your feet to point left. You just used the inertia of the body as leverage to create momentum (on that "rotational" plane your body was not moving).

Given the difference in mass of body over feet, the relative leverage is large enough. Just like in Bud's example, say the cap was 5-6 times heavier... and with a more dispersed distribution relative to the axis, resulting in I don't know 10x leverage? I'm bad at math...

 

[Chris Geib]

Physics ain't weird, but interpretations tend to be...

 

[James]

Black holes are weird.
The two videos are weird in that the arm connected to the body is really not connected. There's an air gap.
I don't see it but it's weird others do. Then the physics isn't so weird. Let's call it the Nixon gap.

 

[razie]

- you're still inssisting on the "this won't work without pole plant" thing? And by extension, that pivot slips are impossible without a pole plant !!!??? Not to talk about falling leafs !?

Twist a popsicle stick and hold the top while releasing the bottom, what happens?

So... Bud, can you tell James what would happen if the twisted popsicle stick had the top 10 times heavier than the bottom, like a coiled human body vs feet ? Would it really still need to be anchored at the top for 12-13x leverage or would the bottom unwind anyways at it's innate 10x leverage, since it's 10 times lighter than the top... ?

Or maybe someone should try this: bend forward a lot - almost to the point of falling forward. Place the pole plant at an angle yet more forward, about 2 meters in front of you and lean on it slightly. Now use the pole to turn your feet, creating significant angular momentum like you claim... I'd like to see the video of that contortion on youtube. But after you post it, remember that I can do all that without a pole.

I'm totally clarified, but also at my last post on the subject. In the end it's all here, pros and cons and physics and minds changed or not. Any reader is free to draw his or her own conclusions.

cheers

 

[James]

Razie go read what I wrote. Never insisted any such thing. I said from the beginning you can. That's not the video. You keep bringing it up with Ligety and Shiffrin which has nothing to do with it.

 

[Bruce]

I've managed to do the drill a couple of times ... when right, it happens auto-magically; the pole plays no role save stabilization during the setup phase. If the pole isn't directly downhill then it is a blocking pole; i.e., you can't do the release at all with the pole off the fall line. In fact, since you need to be fairly well-balanced side-to-side, leaning against the pole in a way that would cause rotation around it also stops the release.

The drill illuminates the fact that if you stay well-balanced and use simple tipping to get effective edging then the skis will do remarkable things with little or no additional effort on your part. There is absolutely no sensation of "unwinding" or any such transmission of energy from the upper body to the lower. I believe if you did try to use unwinding the whole thing would be uncontrollable and not very smooth (because of gross muscle movements).

I have no doubt that you can subvert the drill and merry-go-round the pole. However, that will teach you nothing. And the beauty of the drill (as is with pretty much all PMTS drills) is that the movement is not thrown away when the drill is done: it's actual skiing.

(edit): I should be more clear about the part about "simple tipping to get effective edging". Edging plays no role in the upper half of the drill. The tipping starts only after the skis have reached the fall line. It's difficult to time. The upper half of the drill is the nasty part. That's where you have to resist your desire to push off, or edge, or twist to get to the fall line. Essentially, you have to stay balanced, flatten the skis, don't shift your weight and more or less surrender to gravity. Good luck.

 

[bud heishman]

So... Bud, can you tell James what would happen if the twisted popsicle stick had the top 10 times heavier than the bottom, like a coiled human body vs feet ? Would it really still need to be anchored at the top for 12-13x leverage or would the bottom unwind anyways at it's innate 10x leverage, since it's 10 times lighter than the top... ?

Or maybe someone should try this: bend forward a lot - almost to the point of falling forward. Place the pole plant at an angle yet more forward, about 2 meters in front of you and lean on it slightly. Now use the pole to turn your feet, creating significant angular momentum like you claim... I'd like to see the video of that contortion on youtube. But after you post it, remember that I can do all that without a pole.

I'm totally clarified, but also at my last post on the subject. In the end it's all here, pros and cons and physics and minds changed or not. Any reader is free to draw his or her own conclusions.

cheers

[/QUOTE]

So Razie, how much do you think the skis, bindings, and boots, that are attached to those feet, might weigh? 10X? is that a scientific calculation?

I did some today as well and it is possible to do without a pole stuck in the ground however it does necessitate an internal blocking of the core to keep the torso stable. I would also suggest it is easier doing the PSIA version than the PMTS way without the pole. That narrow stance with the foot pulled back and the spine twisted offers little stability.

 

[Skistaff]

[/QUOTE]

So Razie, how much do you think the skis, bindings, and boots, that are attached to those feet, might weigh? 10X? is that a scientific calculation?

I did some today as well and it is possible to do without a pole stuck in the ground however it does necessitate an internal blocking of the core to keep the torso stable. I would also suggest it is easier doing the PSIA version than the PMTS way without the pole. That narrow stance with the foot pulled back and the spine twisted offers little stability.[/QUOTE]



The question is not if one version of the drill is easier then another, the qusstion is how this version will affect your release and how it will contribute to your developement.

 

[bud heishman]

The question is not if one version of the drill is easier then another, the qusstion is how this version will affect your release and how it will contribute to your developement.

Exactly!, Let's talk about that!

 

[razie]

Oh, it's been a while...

I think the TFR works on the release aspect of tipping or un-tipping. Fine control at very slow speed and a very narrow focus on not twisting the feet, so just tipping through transition - it is especially hard not to rush the skis when they point straight down the slope... Many skiers are not aware of the fine control required to avoid twisting the skis through flat and are not aware of those moments when the edges release or engage.

The pivot slips as I know them, the skiers in fact do twist the feet (i.e. pivot) and tend to carry some momentum which helps too (hides deficiencies rather). Really good for counter though and staying in the middle of the ski.

So I think the TFR requires more skills... or teaches more skills.

cheers