On the use of ankles to turn

[François Pugh]

Interesting discussion.
Having first skied in leather ankle high ski boots, I know how ankle motion can tip the skis into a turn.

Compared to the usual activities, like running around a corner on flat ground, skiing requires the ankle to move in the opposite direction; instead of tipping the sole of the foot to match the flat ground as our body inclines, we tip the ankle so that the feet are angled to match a banked turn surface. Perhaps this is why it is important to focus on tipping the feet.

Also it is easy to notice that if you tip the ankle it stretches the joint and the knee is want to move in the corresponding direction.

However, I have one of those boots @James (IIRC) mentioned. Rock hard double (or tripple - I can't really recall) stacked custom foam liners, heavily posted Superfeet cork footbeds and an ultra stiff shell (I got the boots during my speed freak years). It's like my ankles are encased in concrete. Those boots are my favorite boots. Despite my ankle not moving, I am still able to ski, and carve great arc-2-arc turns. Despite Steve Podborski (of Crazy Cannuck fame) having a very similar boot back in the day he was able ski well enough to become the first north american to win the FIS DH season. In total, he won eight World Cup downhill races, including the notorious Hahnenkamm in Kitsbuhel, Austria, which he won twice (1981–82). In 34 more races, he finished in the top 10.

Important point, although my ankles may not actually move (in side to side bending) inside my favorite pair of boots, the effort and command to move them is there in every turn. I think the brain's command to tip at the ankle opens up the kinetic chain to proper movement and force transmission.

 

[James]

Despite Steve Podborski (of Crazy Cannuck fame) having a very similar boot back in the day he was able ski well enough to become the first north american to win the FIS DH season.

Steve Podborski's boot on the inside was nothing like yours. The guy who did his boots doesn't agree with your theory either and spends a lot of time saying so on his blog. For one, the liner was almost completely removed and modified for a "dorsal fit system". There would be almost no padding around the ankle.

"After Steve Podborski won the 1981-82 World Cup Downhill title using a revolutionary dorsal fit technology I developed for his ski boots in June of 1980, he proposed that we become partners in a venture to develop a new ski boot that would do for every skier what the dorsal fit system had done for him."
-David McPhail
https://skimoves.me/2018/05/15/what-should-a-ski-boot-do/

What is a stacked foam liner? Never heard the term.

 

[markojp]

When I hear a response completely devoid of substance, designed merely to condescend, it reinforces my belief that I'm right. Markojp, 3 hours on the hill with some blocks of wood, a circular saw, screws, a drill, and some rope, and I'll be able to convince you that you're not just using your ankles.

No need to take offense. Let's just agree to profoundly disagree .

 

[Tricia]

This doesn't have anything to do with my skiing. Though, I find it very helpful in many respects when people post video. Therefore, I did post video of my skiing, and anyone is welcome to go look at it. I'm not interested in MA, though, so keep your comments to yourself.

Where did you post this video?

 

[markojp]

Skier, we actually all like each other here. There is no one I can think of that I wouldn't want to go make some turns with even if we occasionally drive each other nuts. That includes you. Keep that in mind when posting. There's zero need to be defensive or offended by the peanut gallery here.

 

[François Pugh]

Ok, I got the timing wrong. My boots were from a later period, not 1982, more like 84.

 

[skier]

p.s. in fact, the conclusion above is false, even if you discount the rest of the kinetic chain. All you have to do to prove that is to sit on a seat, with the knees around flexed 90 degrees, pull the boots back under the hips as much as you can, tension the feet and ankles to keep them under the hips while flat on the ground, then relax everything else completely and just tip the feet. the knees will move, putting the boots on edge, without any involvement of the body above the knees.

Razie, I tried this, and I couldn't really tip the boot. Maybe one edge came up something like a mm, certainly nothing anywhere close to being able to tip the ski enough to turn in a reasonable distance. Then, I tried it with the ski on, and couldn't tip to the inside at all, zero. I could tip to the outside just a tiny bit, makes me want to rethink my alignment, still though, not enough to turn. Before this experiment I was borderline, are ankles a dominant factor or not, but now after this experiment, I believe it's a very minor factor. It's all about mental focus, not actually work accomplished by muscle groups. Can you sit on a chair with the ski boot on the ski and tip the ski with nothing but your ankle muscles? If you can, then we're talking very different physiology, though I suspect you can't. If your physiology is different, then that might explain why it's a good focus for some, but not for others. I'm curious if other people can do it. This has nothing to do with skiing ability, it's purely physiology and the awareness of whether you are actually relaxing certain muscle groups or not, though I wonder if some people might not have that awareness.

 

[karlo]

Watch very carefully the first few wiggles here and see how, even though the knees are bent, there is a more pronounced use of the bigger muscles as well, until he gets enough ski bend to unweight in transition

I see now what you mean by unweighted. This video illustrates exactly what I described. The wiggle part are like railroad tracks and, as in the video, I definitely am thinking ankles to turn. However, when unweighting happens, I’m thinking hips, along with pedaling, to turn. What happens with my ankles becomes passive, not locked and rigid, quite loose to absorb and release, but very passive. So, in my personal experience, the ankle first thing has limited utility. How often am I going to do railroad tracks when freeskiing. That said, I can see how a downhill racer would find utility all the way through the course. But, that seems irrelevant to the recreational skier.

As I wrote that, maybe it’s not irrelevant to the recreational skier. A beginner and an intermediate will be weighted. But, then, a beginner an intermediate doesn’t need railroad track turns. Maybe someone can help me think this through.

 

[karlo]

p.s. in fact, the conclusion above is false, even if you discount the rest of the kinetic chain. All you have to do to prove that is to sit on a seat, with the knees around flexed 90 degrees, pull the boots back under the hips as much as you can, tension the feet and ankles to keep them under the hips while flat on the ground, then relax everything else completely and just tip the feet. the knees will move, putting the boots on edge, without any involvement of the body above the knees.

I tried it too. No boots. Just street shoes. My knees move a bit. Above the knees, it’s not obvious, but I think my femur is rotating. No lateral movement. Just rotation, like a screw.

 

[James]

If one moves their ankle and knee it becomes a much more powerful move. If you move just the knee, it's not as strong.
One can be in a turn and relax the ankles- well change your outside foot from everted on the big toe to more inverted towards little toe. Enough to release the edge.

This will start a slide and you can twist the feet in, essentially doing a stivot. This can be done quite rapidly and while low, because of ankles and the range available in steering the feet. It's a lot of fun and very useful to scrub some speed and evaluate as one goes over a knoll.
It's almost entirely a foot/ankle/ lower leg move.

For years I stopped thinking about moving the knee outside of powder. It was supposed to be bad and I've had 3 knee operations. But now I think I may be back to it.

It's really the foot that inverts or everts and the ankle bones move a little when we talk about it.

 

[razie]

...and I was about to give a serious detailed answer, but @skier and @karlo - you can take it up with Sean Warman, Mikaela and the CSCF, explaining that foot and ankle should not be used to put the skis on edge, because it's useless.

In the words of a wiser and cooler guy, let's agree to strongly disagree on that.

If anyone else is interested in proving to themselves that this is real, without any mind games of focus and relaxation, modify the experiment like this: get into a ski boot and tighten the boot, the bottom two buckles, leaving the cuff open. Put your finger between the cuff and the tibia, on the outside and then strongly evert the foot, i.e. do this:

You will feel a strong (or not so strong, depending on how much you exercise those muscles and movements as well as how good your race boots are fitted) squeeze and pressure on your finger. That is the torque applied to the boot and that is what would tip the knee and ski over, especially when the knees are flexed and the legs relaxed, in what's usually referred to as "performance skiing" !

If you feel nothing, it's possible you're not aware of this foot movement and you owe it to yourself and your ski improvement to exercise this without the boots on. Mine is fairly strong - the respective muscles get a good workout through the season.

 

[razie]

@karlo - your choice of subjects is very interesting - you seem to be coming back over and over to the same subject - your last three technical threads are:
- On the use of ankles to turn
- Tipping the skis. Ah yes, where to start?
- On using hip dump to improve skiing

One of these was driven to closure and the others kick up a lot of dust with the coaches and instructors posting here, like we're doing now...

I don't see you adding anything new to these subjects, just sort of bring them up again and fire it up... and that's just an observation.

If you like to continue using the hips instead and keeping a passive ankle, please go ahead... I have no issue with that whatsoever - we're free to ski whichever way we please!

 

[karlo]

I tried it too. No boots. Just street shoes. My knees move a bit. Above the knees, it’s not obvious, but I think my femur is rotating. No lateral movement. Just rotation, like a screw.

I think that this is a little thing. The main thing is, it is very possible to tip the skis with the ankles.

@karlo - your choice of subjects is very interesting - you seem to be coming back over and over to the same subject - your last three technical threads are:
- On the use of ankles to turn
- Tipping the skis. Ah yes, where to start?
- On using hip dump to improve skiing

One of these was driven to closure and the others kick up a lot of dust with the coaches and instructors posting here, like we're doing now...

I don't see you adding anything new to these subjects, just sort of bring them up again and fire it up... and that's just an observation.

If you like to continue using the hips instead and keeping a passive ankle, please go ahead... I have no issue with that whatsoever - we're free to ski whichever way we please!

That hip dump thread, I realized I didn't know what a hip dump is and conceded that hip dump is not a proper progression step to improve skiing. The ankle thing came up there and I promised to consider it

I totally forgot the Ah Yes, Where to Start thread. I should have titled that in a straightforward way, referencing ankles. Anyway, discarding the fiery words that were briefly exchanged, I do find the contributions here valuable. I'm still interested in hearing how others use ankle-turn-initiation in their everyday skiing. That said, I shouldn't, if I have, refute their use of such.

 

[Josh Matta]

so to summarize this thread.

Karlo thinks that we dont use our ankle or shouldnt use them. Skier agrees with him.

Every single PSIA, PMTS and other wise knowledgeable tech posters as well as video being described by Mikela fing shiffrin is saying use your ankles.

just learn how to tip your feet, it may only be your perceptions of your own movement but it starts on the ground, its certainly does nt start by trying to twist your femurs prior to your feet tilting.

 

[karlo]

lot of fun and very useful to scrub some speed and evaluate as one goes over a knoll.

Karlo thinks that we dont use our ankle or shouldnt use them

No, if you say you use your ankles, you do. And, I'm not saying you shouldn't use them. I'm asking in what situations you do use them.

As for PSIA PMTS etc., I will only teach what I own, not what's in a book or poster. However, I am willing to increase what I own. That said, in one recent lesson, I did focus on teaching the kids to roll off their edges on the flats, to side slip. I demonstrated what's happening to the knees, placing my hands on my knees; the knees "roll". Yes, ankles had to move too. But, kind of hard to show folks what is happening to the ankles without an xray machine.

 

[Josh Matta]

I use my ankles in every single ski turn I make, and I am sure everyone in this thread except for 'skier" will say the same thing. There isnt a single ski turn I can think off where I do not use them, or where another good to great to elite skier does nt use them.

 

[Johnny V.]

The main thing is, it is very possible to tip the skis with the ankles.

Uhh yeah..................I think it is. In fact, this old man hack skier does it on a regular basis.

 

[François Pugh]

Force is transmitted through the ankle to the little toe edge or the big toe edge of the ski. IMO, the stress is there to transmit the force whether the ankle moves or not.

 

[razie]

Just a rcentr nice visual and explanation of how the feet should/could work in a good transition sequence, from Paul L

 

[karlo]

Uhh yeah..................I think it is. In fact, this old man hack skier does it on a regular basis.

And, I know my ankles are used. Just, not in the conscious firing of neurons.

@razie, referencing the video in my OP here,
https://www.pugski.com/threads/tipping-the-skis-ah-yes-where-to-start.12984/

what caught my attention was the weightless you refer to. Can’t get more weightless than those skydancers. When I viewed it, I immediately related to the hip rotations, the stretching of hip flexors, the knees, femurs, and tibia’s.

p.s. in fact, the conclusion above is false, even if you discount the rest of the kinetic chain. All you have to do to prove that is to sit on a seat, with the knees around flexed 90 degrees, pull the boots back under the hips as much as you can, tension the feet and ankles to keep them under the hips while flat on the ground, then relax everything else completely and just tip the feet. the knees will move, putting the boots on edge, without any involvement of the body above the knees.

So, I tried this again. This time I inserted weightlessness by dangling my feet in the air, rather than having them planted to the floor. And, I focused on rotating my hips, knees pointed straight forward. Lo and behold, my ankles moved naturally. If I lock my ankles, muscularly was all I could do, the quickness and the degree of hip rotation was inhibited