On the use of ankles to turn

[skier]

In an earlier thread, before my season started and now closed, that got into the use of ankles, I wrote, “I will focus on what I'm feeling at the ankles next time out on skis”, to see when I find I’m using my ankles, when I find utility in it. I’ve now had a chance.

Unless I am doing railroad tracks, I do not use my ankles to initiate turns. In my freeskiing, I find that lateral movement of my ankles is passive and reactive. Examples

Initiating a turn by shifting to the old inside ski: I shorten my new inside leg; the new outside ski rolls to the new edge; I angulate at the hips. Any thing happening with my new outside ankle is just a reaction to the roll from edge to edge, with the boot supporting my anlkle.

More dynamic turn utilizing the energy from the ski: I find that, in the release of the old turn, any lateral ankle position is passively released, simply because forces on the ankle has released. As the feet come across to the other side, in what might be described as a very dynamic leaper, but one in which the skis remain just barely in contact with snow, gravitationally weightless never these, as in a leaper, there are no forces on the ankles; hence, they are in neutral position. Not until forces are encountered when the new edge set engages and builds do my ankles move laterally in the other direction.

Only case, railroad tracks: With railroad tracks, I actively use my ankles. First, my skis are weighted in transition, not unweighted. So, I feel like an active movement of my ankles has an effect on the ski. Second, with railroad tracks, I’m endeavoring to highly control the gradualness of the edgeset, to make beautifully connect the tracks of each turn.

In all mountain freeskiing, I personally find limited utility in the use of ankles to initiate turns. Except when asked to perform railroad tracks, I would never do them. When do you find utility initiating turns with lateral angling of your ankles? What type of turn? What terrain? What conditions? For what purpose?

I've been exploring the ankles with a somewhat scientific approach just recently, and I've discovered some interesting things. It appears to me that there's some communication issues going on. Like for a while when people would talk about knee angulation, many would think it meant the knee bending sideways, which isn't possible to any significant amount. Ankles do not bend sideways in ski boots in any meaningful way. There are all those performance liners that are meant to form to your foot, and that's a good thing. You want that. You can't have lots of slop in the boot. By the time you have enough slop in the boot for rolling the ankles to affect the skis as an isolated movement, it's way too loose. It would poorly affect skiing in other ways. However, there is something else going on with rolling the ankles. Let me describe my process.

First, I got on a scooter with sneakers. I experimented with rolling my ankles, and found that I could get enough angles to make some turns. Then I put on a cheap boot with lots of slop and tried the scooter again just rolling the ankle. To my surprise, it turned again. Then I cranked down on the buckles, and it still turned. After exploring the motions of my body on the scooter and on skis, I was able to piece together what's happening. With your legs bent, when you roll your ankle in ski boots, it pulls your knee sideways. So, in essence, the action of rolling the ankle is one way of doing knee angulation. I think I've done it all along. I just call it knee angulation, because that's really what's happening. The motions of moving the knee and rolling the ankle are so locked together that I can hardly roll my ankle one way and move my knee the other way, it's like patting my head and rubbing my stomach at the same time.

So, the conclusion is that ankle rolling in isolation as having any effect tipping the skis is a myth. But, ankle rolling as part of a chain in the entire leg that moves the knee is real. The proof of this comes by trying to stand up straight on the skis such that the knees are not bent. Now roll the ankles, and you'll see that there's a negligible effect for tipping the skis. It's necessary to have the knees bent to feel any effect, because the knee must move laterally, because it's essentially the knee moving laterally which is tipping the skis. The knees can't move laterally any significant amount when the legs are straight. So, one can think of tipping with just their ankles, or one can tip with just knee angulation, and it's essentially the same action. Is it better to focus more on the femur or more on the ankles? I don't know, because I've heard many good skiers talk in different ways. I think it's probably what works best for the individual, but it's a disservice to assume that anyone can ski with just ankles without movement and muscular feedback control from other joints.

 

[razie]

.
ll, it so happens that, in a few days, I will have a day with a Canadian Level 4, coach level 2, instructor/coach, to do drills and MA, on account of my left footers being locked up from a left hip injury. I’ll ask about the ankle

I'm both as well and CSIA fundamentals include "use of all joints' and "turning is led with the lower body and the ski shape"...

 

[karlo]

Did you read razies post?
Try to side slip, and you will understand how useful ankles are. You don't use the hips when sideslipping, just the ankles.

That’s another good one. As in railroad tracks, I would definitely be actively moving ankles

So, that’s what they’re called. I was just doing them two weeks ago at the behest of the clinician. My mental focus is definitely hip-centric. My right-footers were smooth and effortless. With my left hip injury and dysfunctions, I was locked; the hip wouldn’t do what I was telling it to do

, ankle rolling as part of a chain in the entire leg that moves the knee is real.

For sure. In the Garland video, Mikaela says ankles And knees, not ankles, not ankles then knees. And, from my doing them recently, I’d say that it’s ankles, knees, And hips, making up the entire leg. So, what difference is it if one’s mental focus is on one joint or another if they are properly synced for the activity one is engaged in?

I'm both as well and CSIA fundamentals include "use of all joints' and "turning is led with the lower body and the ski shape"...

Yes!

 

[razie]

. So, what difference is it if one’s mental focus is on one joint or another if they are properly synced for the activity one is engaged in?

Yes!

A big difference! You do not feel the ski with your knees or your hips. Focusing on the feet instead has many advantages, including properly activating and stacking up the kinetic chain.

All you do if you focus on knees or hips is to put the ski on edge with the big muscles of the leg, essentially dragging the boot on edge from the top. Ski engagement and control will never be precise - for that you need to control the boot from the bottom of it and have the foot ready and engaged.

 

[karlo]

A big difference! You do not feel the ski with your knees or your hips. Focusing on the feet instead has many advantages, including properly activating and stacking up the kinetic chain.

All you do if you focus on knees or hips is to put the ski on edge with the big muscles of the leg, essentially dragging the boot on edge from the top. Ski engagement and control will never be precise - for that you need to control the boot from the bottom of it and have the foot ready and engaged.

I don’t know. When I’m skiing well, it feels precise. Anyway, if my hip won’t do what it is being told to do, maybe I tell that left foot and ankle to do what it needs to do, and let the hip (and knee follow). The good news is, I get some time to work on this very soon.

 

[razie]

I don’t know. When I’m skiing well, it feels precise. .

Fair enough... but remember, it's called "hero snow" for a reason! Try ice for a change and you'll see what I mean by imprecise!

 

[markojp]

I've been exploring the ankles with a somewhat scientific approach just recently, and I've discovered some interesting things. It appears to me that there's some communication issues going on. Like for a while when people would talk about knee angulation, many would think it meant the knee bending sideways, which isn't possible to any significant amount. Ankles do not bend sideways in ski boots in any meaningful way. There are all those performance liners that are meant to form to your foot, and that's a good thing. You want that. You can't have lots of slop in the boot. By the time you have enough slop in the boot for rolling the ankles to affect the skis as an isolated movement, it's way too loose. It would poorly affect skiing in other ways. However, there is something else going on with rolling the ankles. Let me describe my process.

First, I got on a scooter with sneakers. I experimented with rolling my ankles, and found that I could get enough angles to make some turns. Then I put on a cheap boot with lots of slop and tried the scooter again just rolling the ankle. To my surprise, it turned again. Then I cranked down on the buckles, and it still turned. After exploring the motions of my body on the scooter and on skis, I was able to piece together what's happening. With your legs bent, when you roll your ankle in ski boots, it pulls your knee sideways. So, in essence, the action of rolling the ankle is one way of doing knee angulation. I think I've done it all along. I just call it knee angulation, because that's really what's happening. The motions of moving the knee and rolling the ankle are so locked together that I can hardly roll my ankle one way and move my knee the other way, it's like patting my head and rubbing my stomach at the same time.

So, the conclusion is that ankle rolling in isolation as having any effect tipping the skis is a myth. But, ankle rolling as part of a chain in the entire leg that moves the knee is real. The proof of this comes by trying to stand up straight on the skis such that the knees are not bent. Now roll the ankles, and you'll see that there's a negligible effect for tipping the skis. It's necessary to have the knees bent to feel any effect, because the knee must move laterally, because it's essentially the knee moving laterally which is tipping the skis. The knees can't move laterally any significant amount when the legs are straight. So, one can think of tipping with just their ankles, or one can tip with just knee angulation, and it's essentially the same action. Is it better to focus more on the femur or more on the ankles? I don't know, because I've heard many good skiers talk in different ways. I think it's probably what works best for the individual, but it's a disservice to assume that anyone can ski with just ankles without movement and muscular feedback control from other joints.

 

[karlo]

Fair enough... but remember, it's called "hero snow" for a reason! Try ice for a change and you'll see what I mean by imprecise!

I love ice. I love precision on ice. And, I love all the associated sensations felt with my feet. Odd. What I feel at the feet, or what I want to feel, triggers what I want to do at the hip.

 

[razie]

I've been exploring the ankles with a somewhat scientific approach just recently, and I've discovered some interesting things. It appears to me that there's some communication issues going on. Like for a while when people would talk about knee angulation, many would think it meant the knee bending sideways, which isn't possible to any significant amount. Ankles do not bend sideways in ski boots in any meaningful way. There are all those performance liners that are meant to form to your foot, and that's a good thing. You want that. You can't have lots of slop in the boot. By the time you have enough slop in the boot for rolling the ankles to affect the skis as an isolated movement, it's way too loose. It would poorly affect skiing in other ways. However, there is something else going on with rolling the ankles. Let me describe my process.

First, I got on a scooter with sneakers. I experimented with rolling my ankles, and found that I could get enough angles to make some turns. Then I put on a cheap boot with lots of slop and tried the scooter again just rolling the ankle. To my surprise, it turned again. Then I cranked down on the buckles, and it still turned. After exploring the motions of my body on the scooter and on skis, I was able to piece together what's happening. With your legs bent, when you roll your ankle in ski boots, it pulls your knee sideways. So, in essence, the action of rolling the ankle is one way of doing knee angulation. I think I've done it all along. I just call it knee angulation, because that's really what's happening. The motions of moving the knee and rolling the ankle are so locked together that I can hardly roll my ankle one way and move my knee the other way, it's like patting my head and rubbing my stomach at the same time.

So, the conclusion is that ankle rolling in isolation as having any effect tipping the skis is a myth. But, ankle rolling as part of a chain in the entire leg that moves the knee is real. The proof of this comes by trying to stand up straight on the skis such that the knees are not bent. Now roll the ankles, and you'll see that there's a negligible effect for tipping the skis. It's necessary to have the knees bent to feel any effect, because the knee must move laterally, because it's essentially the knee moving laterally which is tipping the skis. The knees can't move laterally any significant amount when the legs are straight. So, one can think of tipping with just their ankles, or one can tip with just knee angulation, and it's essentially the same action. Is it better to focus more on the femur or more on the ankles? I don't know, because I've heard many good skiers talk in different ways. I think it's probably what works best for the individual, but it's a disservice to assume that anyone can ski with just ankles without movement and muscular feedback control from other joints.

@markojp - read those red paragraphs again. The fact that the ankle rolling (well, foot really) does move the knee, since the tibia tips the boot, also puts the skis on edge. You cannot decouple these except by fracturing the tibia above the boot cuff (in which case the foot tipping would put the ski on edge but not move the knee anymore). So drawing the conclusion 2) from the observation 1) makes no sense:

1)
So, in essence, the action of rolling the ankle is one way of doing knee angulation.

2)
So, the conclusion is that ankle rolling in isolation as having any effect tipping the skis is a myth.

Otherwise, very good experiments. Indeed, having a flexed knee is critical to using the feet and why most can't do it - since they have a long leg when the skis are flat and would need to be tipped. The other ingredient is lack of weight - which closes the kinetic chain and makes it harder to move the knee over, requiring larger muscles... another reason why even many professionals don't think the foot/ankle can tip the boot over...

Watch very carefully the first few wiggles here and see how, even though the knees are bent, there is a more pronounced use of the bigger muscles as well, until he gets enough ski bend to unweight in transition...

 

[karlo]

The other ingredient is lack of weight

Please explain what you mean. Lack of weight when, why, who?

 

[razie]

Please explain what you mean. Lack of weight when, why, who?

I may have added the demo after you quoted it:

Watch very carefully the first few wiggles here and see how, even though the knees are bent, there is a more pronounced use of the bigger muscles as well, until he gets enough ski bend to unweight in transition...

 

[skier]

@markojp -So drawing the conclusion 2) from the observation 1) makes no sense:

1)
So, in essence, the action of rolling the ankle is one way of doing knee angulation.

2)
So, the conclusion is that ankle rolling in isolation as having any effect tipping the skis is a myth.

What I mean by "in isolation" is if there's no muscular feedback control around other joints, or if only the ankles move and nothing else. When I hear people say they turn with nothing but the ankles, I envision them rolling the ankles, and the angulation is created at the ankle. This goes against common sense, because very little angle can be created at that joint in ski boots. When activating muscles around the ankle to move the knee, other muscles up the chain all the way up to the femur are also activated and under feedback control to maintain the desired knee position. It's impossible to move the knee while balanced and not have a complicated list of muscles being activated and precisely controlled. So, people may focus on nothing but the ankles, but in actuality that's not what's happening. If ankles in isolation could turn a ski, then you could freeze every other joint besides the ankles and still tip the skis enough to initiate a turn, but this is not possible.

 

[markojp]

Mr. Skier, 10 minutes on the hill and I could have you doing railroad tracked arcs on a green run using only your ankles. And yes, cuff contact is our friend. Skiing starts but certainly doesn't end at the feet.

 

[skier]

Mr. Skier, 10 minutes on the hill and I could have you doing railroad tracked arcs on a green run using only your ankles. And yes, cuff contact is our friend.

When I hear a response completely devoid of substance, designed merely to condescend, it reinforces my belief that I'm right. Markojp, 3 hours on the hill with some blocks of wood, a circular saw, screws, a drill, and some rope, and I'll be able to convince you that you're not just using your ankles.

 

[Fuller]

Did you read razies post?
Try to side slip, and you will understand how useful ankles are. You don't use the hips when sideslipping, just the ankles.

Actually he posted just as I was composing but I don't think you got what I was saying as I completely agree with him - with the caveat being that you can roll your ankle all you want but unless the ski boot moves not much is happening to your skis. That's why I love my new tight, snug boots. Ankles are necessary.

 

[razie]

Actually he posted just as I was composing

Oh - so now it's my fault !! ??

 

[razie]

I'll be able to convince you that you're not just using your ankles.

If you are convinced that the ankles/feet play a major part and they are the bottom of said chain, why argue over the fact that other components of this kinetic chain obviously contribute? What is the relevance of thinking about other joints, muscles and other components of a chain that is obviously supposed to work in harmony, components that merely complement what the feet started, other than take focus away from the feet, diluting the entire thing?

Of course your body is supported through these maneuvers, so of course, other components of the kinetic chain contribute and complement!

The more you focus on the other components, the less you focus on the feet and end up drawing conclusions like this, quote:

So, the conclusion is that ankle rolling in isolation as having any effect tipping the skis is a myth.

The top of the kinetic chain is the brain within the head. It will take care of activating whatever it has to activate to make things work. If you start from the hips, it will do whatever it takes to make it work. If you start from the feet, it will also activate the other muscles and joins in the proper sequence to make it work. Which would you rather have focus on?

p.s. in fact, the conclusion above is false, even if you discount the rest of the kinetic chain. All you have to do to prove that is to sit on a seat, with the knees around flexed 90 degrees, pull the boots back under the hips as much as you can, tension the feet and ankles to keep them under the hips while flat on the ground, then relax everything else completely and just tip the feet. the knees will move, putting the boots on edge, without any involvement of the body above the knees.

As I explained before the ankle doesn't actually create movements, it is a joint! But it is common language, when describing foot movements! Obviously the muscles around it cause movements, via the leverage and the tendons and ligaments and the joints that connect them! In this case, especially the foot deformation called "inversion" and "eversion" is what puts the boots on edge - you can easily look that up and see what muscles and joints are involved, in what sequence etc. That's what "rolling the ankles" actually means!

In full detail: looking at the inside foot, the inversion will push the little toe side down into the boot board and pushing the top of the foot up closer to the big toe, creating a torque which rotates the boot that way - the cuff of the boot will begin pushing the tibia inside and moving the knee in the same direction, if you don't oppose that with the big muscles of the legs.

Eversion is a reverse torque, pushing the big toe down and lifting the little toe side, again applying torque to the boot and tipping the ski and knee in the process. Given how the body is articulated, the movements are a little more complex, but that's the crux of it.

This only works well if you have effective separation of the body segments, by relaxing and flexing all the important joints: knees, hips etc... not just upper/lower body but also the upper leg from the lower leg etc.

 

[skier]

If you are convinced that the ankles/feet play a major part and they are the bottom of said chain, why argue over the fact that other components of this kinetic chain obviously contribute? What is the relevance of thinking about other joints, muscles and other components of a chain that is obviously supposed to work in harmony, components that merely complement what the feet started, other than take focus away from the feet, diluting the entire thing?

Of course your body is supported through these maneuvers, so of course, other components of the kinetic chain contribute and complement!

The more you focus on the other components, the less you focus on the feet and end up drawing conclusions like this, quote:

So, the conclusion is that ankle rolling in isolation as having any effect tipping the skis is a myth.

The top of the kinetic chain is the brain within the head. It will take care of activating whatever it has to activate to make things work. If you start from the hips, it will do whatever it takes to make it work. If you start from the feet, it will also activate the other muscles and joins in the proper sequence to make it work. Which would you rather have focus on?

p.s. in fact, the conclusion above is false, even if you discount the rest of the kinetic chain. All you have to do to prove that is to sit on a seat, with the knees around flexed 90 degrees, pull the boots back under the hips as much as you can, tension the feet and ankles to keep them under the hips while flat on the ground, then relax everything else completely and just tip the feet. the knees will move, putting the boots on edge, without any involvement of the body above the knees.

As I explained before the ankle doesn't actually create movements, it is a joint! But it is common language, when describing foot movements! Obviously the muscles around it cause movements, via the leverage and the tendons and ligaments and the joints that connect them! In this case, especially the foot deformation called "inversion" and "eversion" is what puts the boots on edge - you can easily look that up and see what muscles and joints are involved, in what sequence etc. That's what "rolling the ankles" actually means!

In full detail: looking at the inside foot, the inversion will push the little toe side down into the boot board and pushing the top of the foot up closer to the big toe, creating a torque which rotates the boot that way - the cuff of the boot will begin pushing the tibia inside and moving the knee in the same direction, if you don't oppose that with the big muscles of the legs.

Eversion is a reverse torque, pushing the big toe down and lifting the little toe side, again applying torque to the boot and tipping the ski and knee in the process. Given how the body is articulated, the movements are a little more complex, but that's the crux of it.

This only works well if you have effective separation of the body segments, by relaxing and flexing all the important joints: knees, hips etc... not just upper/lower body but also the upper leg from the lower leg etc.

Lots of competing views on these things. Lots of different perspectives. Some are misleading. Trying to roll your ankle in a ski boot does move the knee, but to say it's the dominant mechanism is a stretch. It seems barely enough to get a turn started. I've read in various reputable places that the ankles merely fine tune the tipping. It's not the main driver. Whether it should be the main focus or not is subjective. Ted Ligety said he starts his turns with his knee, then brings in the hips. If ankles were the dominant focus for him, I doubt he'd leave it out when describing how he starts a turn. It's clearly an important focus for many here, and that's ok.

 

[razie]

Lots of competing views on these things. Lots of different perspectives. Some are misleading. Trying to roll your ankle in a ski boot does move the knee, but to say it's the dominant mechanism is a stretch. It seems barely enough to get a turn started. I've read in various reputable places that the ankles merely fine tune the tipping. It's not the main driver. Whether it should be the main focus or not is subjective.

Yah - this is where I would really like to see your skiing, to continue the discussion. It is likely that you are not getting sufficient ski performance to flex, unweight and tip, so you don't deeply understand this movement pattern. Practice and some time with a good coach like @markojp would be highly recommended!

And no, whether it should be the main focus or not is not subjective. As I just pasted above, this very specific issue is one of the fundamentals of ski technique coming from our race coaches federation and I will take the word of these guys over your deductions...

 

[skier]

Yah - this is where I would really like to see your skiing, to continue the discussion. Without seeing you, I would bet that you are not getting sufficient ski performance to flex,unweight and tip.

This doesn't have anything to do with my skiing. Though, I find it very helpful in many respects when people post video. Therefore, I did post video of my skiing, and anyone is welcome to go look at it. I'm not interested in MA, though, so keep your comments to yourself.