On the use of ankles to turn

[karlo]

In an earlier thread, before my season started and now closed, that got into the use of ankles, I wrote, “I will focus on what I'm feeling at the ankles next time out on skis”, to see when I find I’m using my ankles, when I find utility in it. I’ve now had a chance.

Unless I am doing railroad tracks, I do not use my ankles to initiate turns. In my freeskiing, I find that lateral movement of my ankles is passive and reactive. Examples

Initiating a turn by shifting to the old inside ski: I shorten my new inside leg; the new outside ski rolls to the new edge; I angulate at the hips. Any thing happening with my new outside ankle is just a reaction to the roll from edge to edge, with the boot supporting my anlkle.

More dynamic turn utilizing the energy from the ski: I find that, in the release of the old turn, any lateral ankle position is passively released, simply because forces on the ankle has released. As the feet come across to the other side, in what might be described as a very dynamic leaper, but one in which the skis remain just barely in contact with snow, gravitationally weightless never these, as in a leaper, there are no forces on the ankles; hence, they are in neutral position. Not until forces are encountered when the new edge set engages and builds do my ankles move laterally in the other direction.

Only case, railroad tracks: With railroad tracks, I actively use my ankles. First, my skis are weighted in transition, not unweighted. So, I feel like an active movement of my ankles has an effect on the ski. Second, with railroad tracks, I’m endeavoring to highly control the gradualness of the edgeset, to make beautifully connect the tracks of each turn.

In all mountain freeskiing, I personally find limited utility in the use of ankles to initiate turns. Except when asked to perform railroad tracks, I would never do them. When do you find utility initiating turns with lateral angling of your ankles? What type of turn? What terrain? What conditions? For what purpose?

 

[Fuller]

The more narrow my base of support (narrow stance) and the more forward I am (tips engaged) the more I can use just my ankles to change my direction. Of course the knees are getting into the act but it's fun to "ankle surf" thorough the loose snow in a playful manor.

 

[Rod9301]

I think of tipping the skis with the bottom of my feet, namely the outside edge of my downhill foot, simultaneous to taking pressure off that foot.

I do not concentrate on my hips tilting, except to think of raising my inside hip, which puts my COM over the inside edge of the outside ski.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I open and close my ankle joints during each turn. My boots restrict most lateral movement of the ankles.

 

[Chris Geib]

Constant non-stop activity. Magnitude of movement is of course low considering boot limits range of motion, but frequency is quite high. The ankle is the final precision guidance system for fore/aft, edging and steering. You literally cannot have edge engagement without ankle tension.

 

[JESinstr]

Hey Karlo,
Before we allow this well intentioned discussion turn into a FUBAR discussion, please be clear that we are talking about: 1. Lateral ankle movement and 2. The intent is to create redirection via development of the carving process.

As @Kneale Brownson stated above, our boots restrict lateral movement so I don't know if there is that much to discuss.

Since I endeavor to start all my turns by getting to my new edges ASAP, Job 1 is to lift the new outside edges and to the extent that my ankles laterally participate, so be it. Job 2 is to shorten my inside leg in order to build the edge angles through progressive angulation vs inclination and finally, Job 3 is to move my pelvis laterally to the inside of the turn allowing for even higher edge angles, resulting in separation at the hips and counter of the pelvis. Of course all the "jobs" flow seamlessly and overlap as required, while maintaining dynamic fore and aft balance through the arch of the foot.

 

[ToddW]

When do you find utility initiating turns with lateral angling of your ankles? What type of turn? What terrain? What conditions? For what purpose?

All turns; all terrain; all conditions; to bring the skis to life.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

If you "only" angulate from the hip and don't move the ankle, you will fall over.

As Chris says the foot and ankle are responsible for small, precise but important movements. The flexing and extending of the ankle is critical to fore/aft balance.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

We called it “ankleation” back about the time plastics entered the boots picture ( about 30 years after my first leather ski boots).

 

[karlo]

please be clear that we are talking about: 1. Lateral ankle movement and 2. The intent is to create redirection via development of the carving process

​

Yes, I think lateral movement is what I mean, the movement that results in foot pronation and supination. I had to google that, being that this is all relatively new to me. Yes, the intent is to carve a turn.

I think of tipping the skis with the bottom of my feet, namely the outside edge of my downhill foot, simultaneous to taking pressure off that foot.

I certainly feel the bottom of my feet and its outside edges. I simply don't think of starting a turn with my ankles. I think of starting it with my hips (the joint); what takes my skis from one side of me to the other.

I open and close my ankle joints during each turn. My boots restrict most lateral movement of the ankles.

Open and close of ankles, that's flexing and extending our legs, or pressing forward and pulling back, right? I do that, but that is not what I am thinking when initiating a turn. I think of lightening or flexing the new inside ski or leg and, at the same time, angulating at the hip.

The ankle is the final precision guidance system for fore/aft, edging and

Yes, I see that when doing railroad tracks. But, in my freeskiing, the precision I need, I find, is quickness of hips with associated tightness of core.

If you "only" angulate from the hip and don't move the ankle, you will fall over.

For sure. But, I feel the movement of ankle to be a passive thing, like what happens when our feet hit the pavement when walking or running.

So, what is my intent here? In that previous thread, and elsewhere in the ski instruction world, so much is said about initiating turns with ankles. There has to be something to it; but I am missing it. I don't see it in my freeskiing; I only feel it in a specific task, railroad tracks. What am I missing? @Chris Geib says precision. I think I am pretty precise. But, I'd be pretty scared to focus on my ankles to do that.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

​

Yes, I think lateral movement is what I mean, the movement that results in foot pronation and supination. I had to google that, being that this is all relatively new to me. Yes, the intent is to carve a turn.



I certainly feel the bottom of my feet and its outside edges. I simply don't think of starting a turn with my ankles. I think of starting it with my hips (the joint); what takes my skis from one side of me to the other.



Open and close of ankles, that's flexing and extending our legs, or pressing forward and pulling back, right? I do that, but that is not what I am thinking when initiating a turn. I think of lightening or flexing the new inside ski or leg and, at the same time, angulating at the hip.



Yes, I see that when doing railroad tracks. But, in my freeskiing, the precision I need, I find, is quickness of hips with associated tightness of core.



For sure. But, I feel the movement of ankle to be a passive thing, like what happens when our feet hit the pavement when walking or running.

So, what is my intent here? In that previous thread, and elsewhere in the ski instruction world, so much is said about initiating turns with ankles. There has to be something to it; but I am missing it. I don't see it in my freeskiing; I only feel it in a specific task, railroad tracks. What am I missing? @Chris Geib says precision. I think I am pretty precise. But, I'd be pretty scared to focus on my ankles to do that.

Well, I am not sure who is saying "initiating turns with the ankle". The ankle has to move along with the leg. You must release the old edge to end the old turn and to start the new turn. If you move the thigh laterally, the ankle is going to move laterally to flatten the edge of the old outside/new inside ski.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I certainly feel the bottom of my feet and its outside edges. I simply don't think of starting a turn with my ankles. I think of starting it with my hips (the joint); what takes my skis from one side of me to the other.​

 

[Josh Matta]

yeah if you dont start with your feet you will hip dump and loose balance on your outside ski.

Go try to do outside ski to outside ski with starting at your hip....

 

[James]

Well get a boot that locks the ankle up and you'll see how important they are. Lock up would mean anything other than dorsi/plantar flexion is very difficult to impossible. Essentially, club foot. It's pretty bad.
The ankle has a lot to do with the foot. The whole system is pretty complex.

In general, you can't ski with just the feet. You can't just tip the foot in any sort of turn sequence on a pitch.

 

[Chris Geib]

​

Yes, I think lateral movement is what I mean, the movement that results in foot pronation and supination. I had to google that, being that this is all relatively new to me. Yes, the intent is to carve a turn.



I certainly feel the bottom of my feet and its outside edges. I simply don't think of starting a turn with my ankles. I think of starting it with my hips (the joint); what takes my skis from one side of me to the other.



Open and close of ankles, that's flexing and extending our legs, or pressing forward and pulling back, right? I do that, but that is not what I am thinking when initiating a turn. I think of lightening or flexing the new inside ski or leg and, at the same time, angulating at the hip.



Yes, I see that when doing railroad tracks. But, in my freeskiing, the precision I need, I find, is quickness of hips with associated tightness of core.



For sure. But, I feel the movement of ankle to be a passive thing, like what happens when our feet hit the pavement when walking or running.

So, what is my intent here? In that previous thread, and elsewhere in the ski instruction world, so much is said about initiating turns with ankles. There has to be something to it; but I am missing it. I don't see it in my freeskiing; I only feel it in a specific task, railroad tracks. What am I missing? @Chris Geib says precision. I think I am pretty precise. But, I'd be pretty scared to focus on my ankles to do that.

Hi Karlo,

I did not say you are missing precision. Nor that you are missing anything. I have never seen you ski to my knowledge or recollection.

I cannot relate to what you describe as passive or reactive ankles, nor can I relate to what quickness of the hips might be.

Having never seen you ski I will just leave it at what I did say.

Good luck!

Chris

 

[razie]

"Rolling the ankles" is a common cue, but any race coach worth his salt will insist that you ski with the feet, meaning the turn starts at the feet/ankles. The actual movement is "inversion" and "eversion" of the foot/ankle complex:


What it really means is that the first movement into the new turn (and to end the old turn as well) is made with the feet/ankles. Then the knees move in and only at the end the hips, otherwise - like @Josh Matta noted, you'll be hip dumping - which is what over 90% of skiers do.

This is one of the 10 fundamentals any (at least Canadian) race coach is supposed to teach, from level 1 and up - here's from the actual level 1 presentation of the technique basics.

It is important that the boots are fitted by someone that knows to fit performance equipment. They must not be too tight to disable foot deformation and ankle movements, but not loose enough to make that movement useless.

Cheers

p.s. try to do simple slide slips, just rolling on and off the edge to stop then glide then stop then glide etc. Do you use your hips?

 

[Fuller]

I don't think it is a matter of how the ankle movement in isolation is changing the ski / snow interface. The ski boot prevents almost all of that from happening. However, consider that during the time we are not skiing, the other 99.9% of the time, we are using our ankles to do all sorts of athletic and pedestrian tasks. That functionality comes with us to the mountain where we rely on the feeling and feedback we are used to getting from our ankles in everyday life. Those little ankle movements trigger the more effective levers we need to make turns while still feeling like a human being.

 

[karlo]

The ankle has to move along with the leg. You must release the old edge to end the old turn and to start the new turn. If you move the thigh laterally, the ankle is going to move laterally to flatten the edge of the old outside/new inside ski.

You can't just tip the foot in any sort of turn sequence on a pitch.

For sure. I’m just not thinking of moving the ankle.

QUOTE="Josh Matta, post: 317006, member: 458"]Go try to do outside ski to outside ski with starting at your hip....[/QUOTE]

That’s a drill, right? What is done? I searched YouTube for “outside ski to outside ski” and didn’t find it.

This is one of the 10 fundamentals any (at least Canadian) race coach is supposed to teach, from level 1 and up.

Well, it so happens that, in a few days, I will have a day with a Canadian Level 4, coach level 2, instructor/coach, to do drills and MA, on account of my left footers being locked up from a left hip injury. I’ll ask about the ankle

 

[Rod9301]

I don't think it is a matter of how the ankle movement in isolation is changing the ski / snow interface. The ski boot prevents almost all of that from happening. However, consider that during the time we are not skiing, the other 99.9% of the time, we are using our ankles to do all sorts of athletic and pedestrian tasks. That functionality comes with us to the mountain where we rely on the feeling and feedback we are used to getting from our ankles in everyday life. Those little ankle movements trigger the more effective levers we need to make turns while still feeling like a human being.

Did you read razies post?
Try to side slip, and you will understand how useful ankles are. You don't use the hips when sideslipping, just the ankles.

 

[Average Joe]