Micro, Indy, Boutique or Mainstream? What is preferred source of skis?

[silverback]

When I go to my favorite tuning shop in late winter, I usually see stacks of brand new skis from a few major manufactures being tuned. They ship them there to get "better than factory" tunes before sending them to the tests. Unfair advantage or just smart?

 

[Philpug]

Over the past decade, we have experience some of the worst tunes at the brands you would not expect, Fischer, Kastle, Stockli and Head and quite frankly some of the best were at Liberty. But the difference is we are able to discern a bad tune from a bad ski and every situation what we had a bad ski, it was addressed and corrected.

When we get our skis, I go over all of them and put a bevel guide on them and check the bases, if any are off, I will bring them to Smoothrides to get tuned.

 

[fatbob]

Yes, sometimes the ski quite literally arrived at the reps door the day before the demo and he still needs to get them on the hill. Or sometimes the fresh tune just sucks. It's unfortunate, but it happens. Every rep in our region cares. Most spend a lot of time and or money getting their fleets ready. Every single maker has had a late product or early production delivery that was less than perfect. I could whine and moan about my optimal length not even being pressed yet, but I'm not going to. Sometimes the delivery service screws up. You're expecting perfection in a very long chain of production and delivery that isn't very realistic and confusing it for lack of effort. Deadlines happen. FWIW, we always tell our testers to be aware that if something isn't right, the culprit is most always the tune and to let the rep or tent know.

Yeah I can believe all that but as a consumer say "So what?". It shouldn't be my problem nor that of the testers to rectify. I'm not expecting perfection but I'm also not expecting excuses - the brand want to sell skis, it really shouldn't be a battle requiring a lot of insider knowledge to get on one that showcases its qualities to best effect. And yeah I come from a place that a consumer product sold to consumers should be of merchantable quality i.e. prepped out of the gate. I don't care whether that's the factory or the retailer themselves but it should be a matter of course not a special request.

And yes I've on more that one occasion fed back about a ski from a demo tent that had a crappy tune to get the defensive "all our skis are great maybe you're just a shitty skier" type response from the rep. Guess what that does for my belief in that brand or your assertion that every rep cares?

 

[markojp]

Yeah I can believe all that but as a consumer say "So what?". It shouldn't be my problem nor that of the testers to rectify. I'm not expecting perfection but I'm also not expecting excuses - the brand want to sell skis, it really shouldn't be a battle requiring a lot of insider knowledge to get on one that showcases its qualities to best effect. And yeah I come from a place that a consumer product sold to consumers should be of merchantable quality i.e. prepped out of the gate. I don't care whether that's the factory or the retailer themselves but it should be a matter of course not a special request.

And yes I've on more that one occasion fed back about a ski from a demo tent that had a crappy tune to get the defensive "all our skis are great maybe you're just a shitty skier" type response from the rep. Guess what that does for my belief in that brand or your assertion that every rep cares?

By the time consumer demos happen, tunes are usually sorted out. This isn't alwaya the case for SIA and regional industry demos.

 

[markojp]

Afraid factory tunes from almost every company out there can be suspect. Of the last 30 pairs of skis I’ve bought/sold, the only one that hasn’t needed a stone grind to flatten has been my 2021 Moment Wildcats that received a full tune on the latest Reichman machines before they leave the factory.

This thread has a “groomer/race ski” bias as many on this site aren’t spending time in a terrain park or backcountry skiing out West so their experience with many of the fantastic “Indy” skis out there might be limited. If you were to post about Stöckli or Kästle skis on freestyle biased websites, they would have very limited experience on those skis compared to something like an ON3P or Moment. They are some of the prestige/hand made skis that are held in very high regard in freestyle/freeride circles for their ability to take insane abuse from rails or rocks off piste and to be handle high speeds through heavy PNW crud with ease. Their fit/finish are very premium. And WAY BETTER graphics on any of the Indy skis vs the “Name of the ski with some stripes” of many big brands.

So is anyone saying indy brands don't make good product?

 

[tch]

By the time consumer demos happen, tunes are usually sorted out. This isn't always the case for SIA and regional industry demos.

Um.... as the victim of a particularly bad tune at a demo day last year, I disagree. Rustler 9 was so inconsistent and burred that I caught my tails and fell twice just making my way back to the tent. Rep bragged about the "sharp" tune they'd put on them.

 

[cantunamunch]

The assumption that any given brand will have consistent tunes across it's range, or even that any given rep tent has consistent tunes on all its skis ...is too often simply not true.

 

[fatbob]

When I go to my favorite tuning shop in late winter, I usually see stacks of brand new skis from a few major manufactures being tuned. They ship them there to get "better than factory" tunes before sending them to the tests. Unfair advantage or just smart?

Not an unfair advantage if they are going to mandate in their retailer contracts that every pair gets an equivalent tune before ending up in a customer's hands. Otherwise, erm, it is fundamentally lying to customers. Getting a product reviewed which is not like they can expect to buy - like erm tuning up chips in an auto for getting through tests - wonder where we've seen that before?

 

[locknload]

All but a few shops, their "demo" skis are glorified rental skis. A proper demo shop, the skis are earmarked as sales tools and might see snow once a week with someone who is actually considering buying that ski verses 9 times in a week with Claude who just flew in from Texas and just wants the latest and greatest ski as a rental.

Funny, we live in the center of the bowling universe here in Reno. We had a friend come in from out of town for bowling convention> We went with him one evening to the to the bowling stadium and there was one of those spinning machines and a test lane to try balls out. We chuckled to ourselves "What geeks", then thought they would probably say the same about us and skis and skiing.

When we go to a demo to test skis. One of the things I do and I have our testers do is to take out either their own personal ski or a ski that they are familiar with to test the snow and use ot as a reference/benchmark ski.

Claude can surely rip though in his sweatshirt and jeans....especially over those Moguls that all Texans know are stored in the closet during the summertime!

 

[cantunamunch]

@Philpug, @Eric Edelstein can we please have a thread of truly unusual indy/micro/boutique shapes/designs?

 

[LukeCam]

I have found that quality/fit/finish has consistently been better in “Indy” brands I’ve owned...On3p and moment specifically. Just ordered my first pair of liberty after seeing them in person and they were perfect. The skis I’ve owned from k2, blizzard, Nordic’s, Volkl and kastle have all had things that I would say are from shortcuts taken during manufacturing or lower quality components. I don’t see myself ever buying a mass produced “made in China” skis again. And on top of that I’d rather support North American made products.

 

[BC.]

I have found that quality/fit/finish has consistently been better in “Indy” brands I’ve owned...On3p and moment specifically. Just ordered my first pair of liberty after seeing them in person and they were perfect. The skis I’ve owned from k2, blizzard, Nordic’s, Völkl and Kästle have all had things that I would say are from shortcuts taken during manufacturing or lower quality components. I don’t see myself ever buying a mass produced “made in China” skis again. And on top of that I’d rather support North American made products.

Sorry to be a buzzkill...usually there are others that play that role, but.....Isn’t Liberty made in China? (There’s a thread from awhile back)

What skis are manufactured/made here in the USA?

I am not trying to start a political debate, nor have I anything against skis made outside of the USA. If anyone has a problem with my question, I apologize. Yet am curious about this. K2 skis are made in China. I found out that many of DPS skis are made in China, not in their Utah factory.

www.pugski.com

 

[LukeCam]

Sorry to be a buzzkill...usually there are others that play that role, but.....Isn’t Liberty made in China? (There’s a thread from awhile back)

What skis are manufactured/made here in the USA?

I am not trying to start a political debate, nor have I anything against skis made outside of the USA. If anyone has a problem with my question, I apologize. Yet am curious about this. K2 skis are made in China. I found out that many of DPS skis are made in China, not in their Utah factory.

www.pugski.com

Ok well I stand by everything I said...minus china

 

[BC.]

Ok well I stand by everything I said...minus china

No worries...I also try to limit my “made in China” purchases.......and then I realize I’m a parent in a full blown Apple product family....and have 2 pairs of Stio Environ pants.

 

[parkrat]

I don’t buy into the “random person” goes ski testing and comes back with useful information. If they do, it’s unusual and they should go into doing it.
You only get a couple runs with a ski. There’s just too many things to be aware of. Not everyone senses the differences, or can talk about them.
What you want is someone who can extrapolate for the intended audience of that ski even when they’re not the audience. It takes experience and awareness.

There are a bunch of Storm Rider 88’s. The MX 88 remained pretty unchanged till the 89.

There has to be some placebo effect with ski brands. It's an interesting question what some random person can sense. If you wanted to assume 90% of skiers can't tell anything about what's under their ski boots and putting durability to the side for a moment, then this would be a strong argument for them buying the cheapest skis they can find.

 

[cantunamunch]

If you wanted to assume 90% of skiers can't tell anything about what's under their ski boots and putting durability to the side for a moment, then this would be a strong argument for them buying the cheapest skis they can find.

...and buying better boots

 

[skipress]

There is a joke that white boots fit kids better. I am sure that more than one of us has returned to a kid with the same boot and a decal on it only to discover... it fits .

Posted this elsewhere but in a meeting with Lange many years ago when they switched from Pink Panther to blue and they told me that the small difference in flex was due to the colour in the plastic [ie unintentional]. Now these days I suspect that guys with pens in their pockets are a bit more scientific.

 

[Philpug]

There is a joke that white boots fit kids better. I am sure that more than one of us has returned to a kid with the same boot and a decal on it only to discover... it fits .

Posted this elsewhere but in a meeting with Lange many years ago when they switched from Pink Panther to blue and they told me that the small difference in flex was due to the colour in the plastic [ie unintentional]. Now these days I suspect that guys with pens in their pockets are a bit more scientific.

I recall Head saying something along those lines regarding pigments in the boots.

 

[parkrat]

While this might be a risk with the first batch of skis that some kid has literally laid up in his garage is it really such an issue? I'm pretty sure Icelantics are burlier than some of those foam cored freestyle skis that Salomon and others were offering in the early 2000s. It's a bit like claiming if you don't buy Ford or GM you'll end up in a fireball because only big manuafacturers can make safe cars ( and I know the auto industry is a poor analogue because scale issues mean you have to be part of something big in order to play really).

The analogy I like better is alpine ski bindings. Any binding with your DIN in range should have the same release/retention capabilities. Nonetheless, you see a lot people recommend a more expensive, heavier binding, especially for some 200lb guy. There's a fear of a binding breaking. Anecdotally, some cheap bindings fail often enough for this to be a concern. It is going to be tough beyond word of mouth to figure out whether a ski or a binding is durable.

 

[AngryAnalyst]

There has to be some placebo effect with ski brands. It's an interesting question what some random person can sense. If you wanted to assume 90% of skiers can't tell anything about what's under their ski boots and putting durability to the side for a moment, then this would be a strong argument for them buying the cheapest skis they can find.

I actually agree that for most skiers any “useable” ski will be roughly as good as any other. Useable skis for the vast majority can’t be too stiff, too heavy, too long or too wide. I also think they benefit from a bit of rocker.

Forums collect the lunatic fringe though and I’m pretty sure most of the people who post here regularly have a pretty good idea of what attributes they tend to like in skis. Taking myself as an example, what I want in a ski has changed a lot in the last 5 years. Despite that, I don’t think I could usefully review a ski other than to tell you whether it has attributes I like and whether I’d like it more if it did something I like better.