Micro, Indy, Boutique or Mainstream? What is preferred source of skis?

[skipress]

**ADMIN NOTE: THIS TOPIC WAS MOVED FROM ANOTHER THREAD TO IT'S OWN**​

Yes. I do. Because a plant that employs 1,000 people and hads a wide range of production capabilities has processes and testing capabilities that the artisan in his garage can only dream about.

I ought to be really excited about these microbrands, I love watch microbrands but.....

Do I want to get into a car made by a multinational with an R&D budget of a zillion bucks, a factory run by computers with quality control tolerances measured by lasers or one built by some cool guys in a shed with interesting tastes in beer. The microbrand product might be amazing, but ... if I want to know that it will start most mornings, it won't rust in 3 years and the wheels won't fall off on a tight bend.... hmmm.

Can you afford to build 500 prototypes, send them to 200 pisteurs to test and then work out which of the minor design and material variables makes the best of the top ten the best?

With enough money I'd have a VW as a daily driver [or indeed a Bentley] but a slightly mad hand built AC Cobra replica for weekends and sunny days.

Not an argument against what these guys are doing, they're the local coffee shop vs starbucks, but if I go to an independent coffee shop and it's toe curlingly bitter [not uncommon] I've dropped a few coins, and ask for a lighter roast next time, with a big investment...

 

[Philpug]

I ought to be really excited about these microbrands, I love watch microbrands but.....

Do I want to get into a car made by a multinational with an R&D budget of a zillion bucks, a factory run by computers with quality control tolerances measured by lasers or one built by some cool guys in a shed with interesting tastes in beer. The microbrand product might be amazing, but ... if I want to know that it will start most mornings, it won't rust in 3 years and the wheels won't fall off on a tight bend.... hmmm.

Can you afford to build 500 prototypes, send them to 200 pisteurs to test and then work out which of the minor design and material variables makes the best of the top ten the best?

With enough money I'd have a VW as a daily driver [or indeed a Bentley] but a slightly mad hand built AC Cobra replica for weekends and sunny days.

Not an argument against what these guys are doing, they're the local coffee shop vs starbucks, but if I go to an independent coffee shop and it's toe curlingly bitter [not uncommon] I've dropped a few coins, and ask for a lighter roast next time, with a big investment...

I agree with you on many of your points but there are "micro brands" that are making stellar world class products and other that ski like they were built with a ball-peen hammer and a dull chisel. I also have been on some mass market skis that were not built to the expectations and consistancies that you would expect.

There are brands that have followings that make me scratch my head and think, "My God, they all ski the same other than a slight different shape" and others that I would actually spend my own money on so I don't have to put a demo binding on it.

 

[Quandary]

I ought to be really excited about these microbrands, I love watch microbrands but.....

Do I want to get into a car made by a multinational with an R&D budget of a zillion bucks, a factory run by computers with quality control tolerances measured by lasers or one built by some cool guys in a shed with interesting tastes in beer. The microbrand product might be amazing, but ... if I want to know that it will start most mornings, it won't rust in 3 years and the wheels won't fall off on a tight bend.... hmmm.

Can you afford to build 500 prototypes, send them to 200 pisteurs to test and then work out which of the minor design and material variables makes the best of the top ten the best?

With enough money I'd have a VW as a daily driver [or indeed a Bentley] but a slightly mad hand built AC Cobra replica for weekends and sunny days.

Not an argument against what these guys are doing, they're the local coffee shop vs starbucks, but if I go to an independent coffee shop and it's toe curlingly bitter [not uncommon] I've dropped a few coins, and ask for a lighter roast next time, with a big investment...

We are talking about skis not cars. Apparently not many have actually been to a smaller indy ski plant. Many have cnc milling machines, computer controlled ovens for core drying, employees who care about what they are doing in laying out the ski, etc, etc. I will take a skilled worker that loves their job and cares about what they are doing over a big plant clock puncher (not that there is anything wrong with that) every time.

P.S. Starbucks coffe sucks.

 

[Philpug]

We are talking about skis not cars. Apparently not many have actually been to a smaller indy ski plant. Many have cnc milling machines, computer controlled ovens for core drying, employees who care about what they are doing in laying out the ski, etc, etc. I will take a skilled worker that loves their job and cares about what they are doing over a big plant clock puncher (not that there is anything wrong with that) every time.

P.S. Starbucks coffe sucks.

A lot of blanket statement on both sides of this argument.

But to your point, this is also why we don't see independent bindings.

 

[jmeb]

Putting all indy/micro brands construction/r&d/testing in the same basket makes about as much sense as putting all macro-brands construction/r&d/testing in the same basket. Both are senseless.

Skis aren't cars. The best ski is the right one for you. For many that's macros. For others that is small brands.

 

[jmeb]

Addendum: The one place skis are like cars is when it comes to racing. Because the only thing that matters when racing is the clock. Large companies obviously have a step up here.

But then you have smaller companies like Blossom and idOne that seem to be competitive. (IDK, I'm not a racer). So maybe it's not just fancy high-tech production and huge budgets that can make great skis.

 

[Philpug]

Addendum: The one place skis are like cars is when it comes to racing. Because the only thing that matters when racing is the clock. Large companies obviously have a step up here.

But then you have smaller companies like Blossom and idOne that seem to be competitive. (IDK, I'm not a racer). So maybe it's not just fancy high-tech production and huge budgets that can make great skis.

We forget how long Blossom has been around because of their limited exposure here in the states but they have been producing skis. They were ther producer of Nordica race skis before that was brought in house.

 

[James]

What happened to that center mount(?) Line binding and who made that?

 

[jmeb]

We forget how long Blossom has been around because of their limited exposure here in the states but they have been producing skis. They were ther producer of Nordica race skis before that was brought in house.

I suppose my question is -- what's the scale of Blossom's production compared to a major "indy" manufacturer like Moment or On3p? Scale ain't everything when it comes to making a good ski.

 

[Philpug]

What happened to that center mount(?) Line binding and who made that?

I am not sure anyone is willing to admit their involvement

 

[skipress]

View attachment 113438
I am not sure anyone is willing to admit their involvement

My recollection is that they were made in the far east. On paper they had some really interesting ideas, in practice weren't they plagued with QC issues and hastily pulled from the market ?

 

[skipress]

Putting all indy/micro brands construction/r&d/testing in the same basket makes about as much sense as putting all macro-brands construction/r&d/testing in the same basket. Both are senseless.

Skis aren't cars. The best ski is the right one for you. For many that's macros. For others that is small brands.

You re quite right, the best ski for you is the best ski for you.

My main point is that if you want to be sure that you'll get something consistently 'good', or perhaps 'competent+' at doing what it's designed for [as opposed to great] you're more likely to find that coming out of a factory that's made 500 prototypes of the model.

When you get to race room it's almost turned on it's head; depends a bit on the company but in most cases it's a sort of microbrand within a macro one.

There's a massive range here too - from guys making bespoke skis in a small industrial unit to what are simply small but 'industrial' ski makers and also MINO [micro in name only] where they are really just a brand and they go to a factory and ask for their 'topskin' on a stock ski.

That happens with SMUs for retailers but also with companies which rely on their being cool and left field. I was dealing with one 'cool' brand which makes big play on their origins. They assured me that their skis were all made in their factory in a well known swiss ski area. With not too much digging it was clear that behind the sign was just a shipping hub and they were bringing them in from eastern Europe. Crafted involved crafting them onto racks .

 

[Noodler]

We're all adults here (at least I think we are); we can handle the truth. It would be nice if all this obfuscation and innuendo was replaced with the real info on who is doing what and under what "disguised" umbrella manufacturers.

Of course this would be major thread drift here, but...

I've seen the same thing in the golf world where ball manufacturers are actually not manufacturers at all. They're just branding machines and have little to no control over how the actual balls are produced and have little to no quality control.

Which brings me back to why I now avoid most indy ski brands. I believe they just don't have deep enough pockets and the technology to produce their products with the highest levels of quality control. They haven't worked out the kinks in their production lines (or have enough money) to ensure that every product coming off the line matches their "gold standard" model ski. Now maybe I'm totally off-base in this "belief", but I have had a couple experiences with indy skis that brought me to this understanding. I have no problem with other skiers that love their indy skis. So flames off...

I'll stick to the major manufacturers with long standing heritage and race-room chops.

 

[jmeb]

The only skis I've broken or delam-ed are all from major manufacturers. I haven't had those issues from the indies I've bought and I've skied them longer and harder. That said, my quiver is a mixture of both.

FWIW, race-room chops mean nothing to me since I'm not racing or skiing in that style on piste.

Perhaps one way to generalize -- it may make sense to buy brands whose design philosophy, ski conditions, and ski conditions match what you want. If you want a beautiful groomer zoomer with classic technique, a Stockli Laser makes a lot of sense. If you mostly ski off-piste 3d snow with a centered stand and like to power slide your turns, something designed by Hoji makes a lot of sense.

 

[cantunamunch]

FWIW, race-room chops mean nothing to me since I'm not racing or skiing in that style on piste.

Yeh, I didn't understand that part either - from a slightly different perspective. I mean are Augment, Kessler, Maxel, Carpani major or indie? All have race skis.

 

[chopchop]

We're all adults here

I'm going to have to call you out on this one.

 

[Philpug]

I think this is a great topic worthy of it's own thread and since I have that power I am using it.

I'd like to see the peanut gallery (or as @Noodler calls them "adults") qualify each segment then start putting brands under each headings. This should be interesting. GO!

 

[parkrat]

Mainstream. It partly comes down to money. I don't care if Wagner's custom skis would make me ski like Ted Ligety. I can't imagine spending $2k+ on a pair of skis.

 

[skipress]

We're all adults here (at least I think we are); we can handle the truth. It would be nice if all this obfuscation and innuendo was replaced with the real info on who is doing what and under what "disguised" umbrella manufacturers.

I'm being cautious because I make a living from skiing and some manufacturers have shall we say a limited sense of humour - it's easy to lose access to brands.

A number of years ago I wrote up a story on a massive binding recall which took place in the US. Some of the brand's european distributors looked at their feet and ignored it and some just plain lied through their teeth [one came up with an explanation to do with the bindings going to the US by sea and the air being salty - creative when it was plastic breaking, another said that it was sunnier in US resorts so a recall was unnecessary in europe ]. When I wrote up the piece I was blocked from the brand's booths for about 8 years. Could barely get a catalogue out of them....

Starting point - look at Sporten's in line models and if you find a small brand ski with near similar characteristics [dimension and construction] there's a good chance it comes out of there. Tip shape and tip protectors where fitted are a giveaway too. Also look for phrases like 'designed, conceived, created in...' as distinct from 'made in'.

Can add that there's nothing inherently wrong with having your skis made in a factory owned by someone else.

 

[chopchop]

I find it strange* that a poster representing an industry news publisher is making blanket, opinion-based statements about a significant segment of the industry. I would also like to see "microbrands" defined.

Seems to beg the question: who buys the most ads in this publication?

I have no horse in this race; it's a legitimate topic for discussion. And I'm no engineer, just a skier. But given the poster, this whole line of reasoning strikes me as a not-so subtle attempt to foster an attitude of dismissal, or at least questioning, when it comes to "artisnal" ski manufacturers.


*Maybe not so strange.