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Micro, Indy, Boutique or Mainstream? What is preferred source of skis?

fatbob

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Microbrands aren't the same are they? Some brands that have broken out and become hot property in the past few years were solidly micro in the past - Blosson, Augment, Black Crows, Faction (though I sometimes question the number of retail price customers on them) . Kaestle was a micro brand when it got rebooted, Kneissel has probably reverted to being one now.

And the better factories all make stuff for multiple brands AIUI. Others that have probably bounced around for longer have never broken out globally - Movement for instance and there are also fierce regional brands Moment, ON3p, Praxis, Icelantic kinda.

For the large part (and this is I know is heresy here) it doesn't really matter that much- if someone gets the warm and fuzzies about buying a ski when they've talked to the designer and even seen them laid up in the factory what is the worst that can happen? It doesn't perform quite as well as Megaski model 4Xti from Behometh Corp? What's the real opportunity cost - a slight loss of performance, some of which can be made up on the tune for having a cool story to tell on the chair?

IMV the smart indies design well, use innovative business models, build community etc but get out of the whole make stuff themselves as some badge of pride unless like Blossom etc they happen to be really good at it.
 

David Chaus

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Interesting topic.

OK, so I have owned "mainstream" skis, K2 (made in China, perfectly good skis) and Head (made in Austria, also perfectly good skis). I currently own a Renoun and two ON3P's. So I guess I'm in the Indy camp, though there are indie's of which I know nothing, and others for which the little I know about, I wouldn't touch.

I can only speak for my own experiences. There are very few skis that I couldn't get along with. There are those that seemed a little bland and didn't excite me. My Renoun is superb and I bought it rather than another Head, or even a Stockli I was considering. And I don't regret my decision.

My ON3P's are even more superb in construction. They are made in Portland, OR and if you want to tour the factory to see what processes and materials they use, you can see for yourself. They can test prototypes year round at Mt Hood. I do trust what they make and sell, and I really enjoy the characteristics of the skis for the conditions in which I ski.

I'm not dismissing the larger manufacturers and I'm sure I could be happy skiing on skis from almost any major manufacturer. Nonetheless, look at my quiver, you know? And I'm not someone who only buys what someone else tells them to, I like to try things for myself. So far, I've not been disappointed by my choices.
 

parkrat

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For the large part (and this is I know is heresy here) it doesn't really matter that much- if someone gets the warm and fuzzies about buying a ski when they've talked to the designer and even seen them laid up in the factory what is the worst that can happen? It doesn't perform quite as well as Megaski model 4Xti from Behometh Corp? What's the real opportunity cost - a slight loss of performance, some of which can be made up on the tune for having a cool story to tell on the chair?

IMV the smart indies design well, use innovative business models, build community etc but get out of the whole make stuff themselves as some badge of pride unless like Blossom etc they happen to be really good at it.

The worst that can happen with a poorly designed ski is it snaps on a jump landing, which is a safety issue. Unfortunately, I don't know any good way to compare ski durability across manufacturers.
 

NZRob

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Mainstream. It partly comes down to money. I don't care if Wagner's custom skis would make me ski like Ted Ligety. I can't imagine spending $2k+ on a pair of skis.

I would pay $20k for a pair of skis that made me ski like Ted (even though I am really quite secure and happy with my own abilities, and usually pretty price-sensitive with skis :ogbiggrin:)

But to the main point, I haven't bought a pair of skis that I haven't demoed for a very long time....and as much as I like the idea of a unique ski from a micro or boutique brand they just aren't readily available to demo (with the exception of NZ microbrand C6 which has a cult following in the North Island).
 

Bad Bob

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I would pay $20k for a pair of skis that made me ski like Ted (even though I am really quite secure and happy with my own abilities, and usually pretty price-sensitive with skis :ogbiggrin:)

That is easy to do. Buy a pair of his skis, they are already trained.

Line and Black Crow are about as no name as we see around here. My neighborhood doesn't have too many opportunities to ski the indys. We have 1 that I know of Sneva Skis but haven't seen anything from them that gets me breathing hard. So larger brand names are what are in my little quiver.
 
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skipress

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I find it strange* that a poster representing an industry news publisher is making blanket, opinion-based statements about a significant segment of the industry. I would also like to see "microbrands" defined.

Seems to beg the question: who buys the most ads in this publication?

I have no horse in this race; it's a legitimate topic for discussion. And I'm no engineer, just a skier. But given the poster, this whole line of reasoning strikes me as a not-so subtle attempt to foster an attitude of dismissal, or at least questioning, when it comes to "artisnal" ski manufacturers.


*Maybe not so strange.

No hardware advertising - please feel free to check, and if you have a moment consider an apology.

As to a significant section of the industry, I am not so sure. Perhaps if you are just counting brands there are a few of them, but if you're counting units, no they're not significant [though some might be 'culturally' significant].

You re right to raise the question what is a microbrand? I'm put in mind of Justice Stewart in Jacobellis v. Ohio.

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it,"

Wikipedia [so almost certainly wrong] says:

"A microbrand is a small-scale brand recognized only in a certain geographic location, or by consumers in a specific micromarket or niche market.The majority of microbrands are owned by a microbusiness, though this trend is changing due to the expansion of the Internet and advancement of micromarketing tools. The process of identifying and micro-segmenting customers into more refined targets is becoming an efficient and rewarding operation for larger companies and corporations. Microbrands are most frequently associated with products such as watches, instruments, undergarments, automobiles, and jewellery." Seems a decent working definition.

I guess there are a few tests:
  • Number made [sold]
  • Many seem to be direct sell rather than have a dealer network
  • Number of employees
  • Hard to measure but many have a 'feel' of artisanal and 'independence' [that's not a criticism]
and so on.

I do like the idea of real handmade skis, and when I was a ski racer, way back when I was on factory stock and yes they skied better.

I am fairly confident that if you had something 'bespoke' and paid a lot of money for it you're likely to get something great.

Whether an off the shelf 'artisan' ski [and in that sense I mean 'real' handmade] is better than a megacorp ski in the same 'category', I am less sure of, and it might be way more expensive. Put that another way [and this is an argument about economics], making lots of stuff on an assembly line produces economies of scale.

I'm a lot more cynical of some smaller brands that present as micro and are really just SMU's with a clever marketing campaign.
 

motogreg

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Hard to find a really bad ski nowadays, isn't it? I know the big boys try to make it into rocket science, but.....it just ain't. If a person likes the indy, or boutique or whatever, go for it. I'll bet a hundred dollars it will be something else that kills them.....
 
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skipress

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Hard to find a really bad ski nowadays, isn't it? I know the big boys try to make it into rocket science, but.....it just ain't. If a person likes the indy, or boutique or whatever, go for it. I'll bet a hundred dollars it will be something else that kills them.....

Yup, when people ask me what should they buy I tend to say - think of buying a car. You have 2 kids and two labradors, and sell a bit of furniture. You probably want an estate [station wagon]. It's just you and you mainly drive to a supermarket 5 miles away you want a city car.

At that point withing a category the right brand and model becomes some sort of mix between brand preference/prejudice and deal [and perhaps factor in binding preference with a non flat top]. You want a trench cutter for the groomed, an all mountain ski, something 70% under the ropes and so on...
 

jmeb

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I'm a lot more cynical of some smaller brands that present as micro and are really just SMU's with a clever marketing campaign.

That's fair -- but I wonder if there is also a geographic difference in your experience. I see you're in GB -- so I'm guessing you're primarily skiing the Alps and clued into the ski manufacturing scene of Europe.

Yes we have some people who contract out their ski manufacturing -- J Skis (Utopie), Icelantic (Never Summer), 4frnt (Elan) -- but those are all pretty demonstrably unique ski designs and layups compared to any other skis you can buy.

But in the US/Canada scene, most of the "indy" brands aren't just re-skins with a clever marketing scheme. Most of them are manufacturers.

For those in Europe -- who are you equivalent of Moment, On3p, Praxis, Folsom, Meier, Wagner, Shaggys, Sego, Voile?

Is it Kastle? Blossom? Augment? Stockli? who else? The only other small Euro-brand I follow is Down. And I'm 95% sure they don't build their own. But their ski designs are unique....no major brand has a touring ski with a 40m+ radius.
 
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parkrat

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An experiment I would like to see run is ski reviews with blacked out top sheets and identical bindings. Then, get normal skiers to test the skis. Would the average skier be able to notice the differences? If so, which brands would come out on top? Think of it like blind wine tastings, but for skis.
 

chopchop

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An experiment I would like to see run is ski reviews with blacked out top sheets and identical bindings. Then, get normal skiers to test the skis. Would the average skier be able to notice the differences? If so, which brands would come out on top? Think of it like blind wine tastings, but for skis.

Or...and just hear me out here....

Blindfolded skiers testing skis after blind wine tastings.
 
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NZRob

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An experiment I would like to see run is ski reviews with blacked out top sheets and identical bindings. Then, get normal skiers to test the skis. Would the average skier be able to notice the differences? If so, which brands would come out on top? Think of it like blind wine tastings, but for skis.

Some of the ski mag's used to do this if I recall.

There is a euro site worldskitest.com which reviews blacked out skis and ranks them. No niche brands in there though.
 

jmeb

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An experiment I would like to see run is ski reviews with blacked out top sheets and identical bindings. Then, get normal skiers to test the skis. Would the average skier be able to notice the differences? If so, which brands would come out on top? Think of it like blind wine tastings, but for skis.

I had the same thought in various forms. It would be rad if a bunch of ski manufacturers mimic'd the Stab in the Dark surf series.


Rather than the average skier, I'd put a pro/pros on the skis who is far better at articulating things than average skiers. One of the worst things about ski reviews is you almost never see the person skiing the ski in the conditions that they ski it in.
 

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An experiment I would like to see run is ski reviews with blacked out top sheets and identical bindings. Then, get normal skiers to test the skis. Would the average skier be able to notice the differences? If so, which brands would come out on top? Think of it like blind wine tastings, but for skis.
Yes, masking the topskis is how it was done at one point but now knowing different shapes and contouring on the topskins it would be of little use. What most would satisfied would be that all the skis were tuned identical...or at least well. You would not beleive how many skis we get on in a season that are either not tuned or poorly tuned.
 

Uncle-A

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All the skis I have owned are mainstream manufacturers, even the skis I have demoed have been major brands. I would like to ski some of the boutique/Indi brands but they seem to be more common and built for skiing out west. Plus the price of some of these skis just doesn't make it easy for the average skier to justify the investment.
 

AngryAnalyst

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What’s “hard” about ski engineering such that you think a brand like ON3P or Moment can’t do a a good job with it?

Skis are mostly the same ingredients. It is vaguely plausible to me that some of the recent innovations in micro variability of core materials (think the Mantra line from Volkl or Mindbender from K2) would be difficult to make in a small plant, but even that I’m not sure about honestly.

I do think the need to make mass market skis is a limitation for certain design goals and this is more of a binding constraint than whatever production inefficiencies at the relevant margin.
 

parkrat

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Microbrands aren't the same are they? Some brands that have broken out and become hot property in the past few years were solidly micro in the past - Blosson, Augment, Black Crows, Faction (though I sometimes question the number of retail price customers on them) . Kaestle was a micro brand when it got rebooted, Kneissel has probably reverted to being one now.

And the better factories all make stuff for multiple brands AIUI.

There's a Blister interview with Faction, where they talk about how their manufacturing has changed over time. To get access to certain factories, you need minimum volumes. Now, they've grown up, they're touting the benefits of being at least a mid-sized company.
 
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skipress

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That's fair -- but I wonder if there is also a geographic difference in your experience. I see you're in GB -- so I'm guessing you're primarily skiing the Alps and clued into the ski manufacturing scene of Europe.

Yes we have some people who contract out their ski manufacturing -- J Skis (Utopie), Icelantic (Never Summer), 4frnt (Elan) -- but those are all pretty demonstrably unique ski designs and layups compared to any other skis you can buy.

But in the US/Canada scene, most of the "indy" brands aren't just re-skins with a clever marketing scheme. Most of them are manufacturers.

For those in Europe -- who are you equivalent of Moment, On3p, Praxis, Folsom, Meier, Wagner, Shaggys, Sego, Voile?

Is it Kästle? Blossom? Augment? Stöckli? who else? The only other small Euro-brand I follow is Down. And I'm 95% sure they don't build their own. But their ski designs are unique....no major brand has a touring ski with a 40m+ radius.

A 40m radius.... I don't go quick enough for that :).

I'm still fairly well connected in the states, I worked with some US ski gear co's over the years and was a PSIA full cert [don't keep it live but have euro full certs].

I do like the microbrand thing - I'm old enough to remember The Ski when it was a garage thing and did some stuff with RD when it had just emerged from the garage :).

Here you have people like:
  • whitedot
  • pfd
  • nix
  • lonely mountain
  • Fauna
Like the USA some of these guys are tiny homebrewers and others are simply SMUs [whatever they say].

Personally I separate out people like Blossom and see that as essentially a thread going from Persinco, via Spalding and as been pointed out here being for a while the Nordica race room. To a degree Stockli and Kastle [and sporten] are similar, they re essentially smallish players but ones which I suspect given the choice would like to be big ones [sporten is a big player just not under their own brand].

The vibe from the 'true' microbrands seems very different; there seems to be a statement that they want to make a good product [ I don't dispute that] but there also seems to be a cultural and 'political' statement of 'difference-ness'. An imperfect analogy but the local coffee store that sources, roasts, blends their own beans and so on. I don't sense that for example Shaggy's wants to be [say] Fischer, but Kastle might quite like to be.

Again the smaller companies seem to specialise in wide or very wide - under the ropes stuff. I don't see the small custom co's doing 'FIS legal' piste trenchcutting stuff. Now at this point I'll make a case that you have less 'tolerance' in something designed for bulletproof ice than something focussed on 2 feet of fluff, or perhaps it's the case that as a 'tester' I am way more sensitive to performance differences when skiing a course than when I turn on the transceiver and check the airbag. If there's something off on a 64mm slalom you know after 2 turns [off can be design, a burr, a ding], take something superwide into the deep and you often have to listen a little more.

My feeling is that most major brands do what they do well, and that they provide highly consistent product - which may be designed to a one size fits most model in a given category. I'm certainly not suggesting that microbrands are unconscientious or make bad skis, just that there might be a greater chance of variation - that's the case with lots of artisan product unless you are hitting hyper high price points [though that might also be an explanation for what are generally higher prices].

So given that much of my time is on firm groomed I guess I am likely to look towards mainstream brands [or I guess the Blossoms of this world] because they make 'tools' that tend to align more with where I spend time.

I know some don't see the relevance [I do, perhaps because there is a culture of small specialist car brands here] but some people would buy the 911, others something more obscure and that makes a statement about performance and also I suspect to a degree to 'attitude' [perhaps that s not the best word for it].

At some point there's project of spreadsheeting prices category for category 'big brand' vs 'micro' and asking is this ski worth $x more than this ski. I don't know the answer.

Yes, masking the topskis is how it was done at one point but now knowing different shapes and contouring on the topskins it would be of little use. What most would satisfied would be that all the skis were tuned identical...or at least well. You would not beleive how many skis we get on in a season that are either not tuned or poorly tuned.

I remember this being done with coloured ski saver tape [remember ski saver...] but as you say ski shapes are distinctive, arguably the tape slightly changed the feel of the ski and perhaps most significantly other than flat tops you're going to be limited to binding choice which introduces another variable. Even with flat tops you can make a pretty strong case that [for example] Rossi's will work better with Look bindings and Rossi/Langes because that's the setup that the testers will be using for the 'sign off' of the production model.

Also again as you say, do the skis arrive well tuned, if not do you fix it or assume that's how the public will get 'em and test like that.
 
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oldschoolskier

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A lot of blanket statement on both sides of this argument.

But to your point, this is also why we don't see independent bindings.
Weeelllll.....there is the Howell binding....

One thing I learned in business years ago was the rule of 3’s. It will always comes down to 3 big companies, where upon small start up comes in and grows into 4 whereupon the cycle starts to reduce to 3.
 

parkrat

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Rather than the average skier, I'd put a pro/pros on the skis who is far better at articulating things than average skiers. One of the worst things about ski reviews is you almost never see the person skiing the ski in the conditions that they ski it in.

Pros are more tuned to their equipment, but I want to see them test it in and for the conditions normal skiers encounter. I don't care what's the best ski for some extreme gnar at Jackson Hole or on the FWT, which 99% of the skiing public will never tackle.

Sometimes, pros are sensitive enough to the their equipment, they'll be unhappy with minute difference mere skiing mortals would never notice. One of the ski boot companies swapped out their WC athletes ski boots with the same boots made in a different color, but both painted black for testing. Some of the athletes wanted to know what was changed in the boots. Apparently, the pigmentation or color dyes added to the plastic made that much of a difference.
 
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