I would expect that it’s changed, but that’s still a fine ski.
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Kids U-12 racing ski questions
I would expect that it’s changed, but that’s still a fine ski.
Lots of great reading here and plenty of opinions and options. However some of these threads are off topic as the OP is looking for advice about U12. Not U14, and obviously not U16. Both of which are different animals.
Obviously each skier is different, possess different technique, different athletic traits, different physical traits and different mental capacity. Each program has different coaches, different mentality and training occurs at different ski areas.
I have seen and watch more U10 and U12 racers fail to develop properly because of overly enthusasitic parents who push their kids into equipment that is too stiff. Parents rush to purchase speciality race skis and speciality boots at the U10 and U12 levels and ignore the fact that the child is unable to flex the equipment. This course of action is more of a hindrance than anything else.
Racing in steep, often icy, tight gates is different than free skiing. For my daughter to gain confidence my U10 daughter skis multi-event skis, Fischer RC4 Speed Jr. She does well, consistently placing in the top 5 out of 15-20 racers, in part because she can actually ski the equipment properly. No GS suit, no special wax, no silly pole and protection equipment, and no special skis. She places high because I watch and work with her on her technique. I talk with and LISTEN to the coaches recommendations about how to help her improve technique.
It is advised for next year, U12 she ski on different skis. Depending on her weight I'm going to purchase a higher performing ski, but not 2. For an 11 year old the idea seems silly particularly because the GS courses in this are generally the same length as the slalom. Form me it's about boot flex and the ability to purchase a ski to help, not hinder her technique and her ability to confidently compete at the next level, U12.
There is plenty of time for 2 pairs of speciality skis and for me to prep skis before a race. Right now some kids are better than her and some aren't. At 10 years old I like that the focus of her coaches is about developing technique and having fun inside of a competitive environment. The reality is that a majority of U10 racers won't ski in high school, fewer in college and only dozen or so will go past that.
IMHO a large portion of a childs success at the U10 levels is attributed to parents being pragmatic and not getting caught up in purchasing what they want. Rather about purchasing what their kids need to help develop proper race technique.
Obviously each skier is different, possess different technique, different athletic traits, different physical traits and different mental capacity. Each program has different coaches, different mentality and training occurs at different ski areas.
I have seen and watch more U10 and U12 racers fail to develop properly because of overly enthusasitic parents who push their kids into equipment that is too stiff. Parents rush to purchase speciality race skis and speciality boots at the U10 and U12 levels and ignore the fact that the child is unable to flex the equipment. This course of action is more of a hindrance than anything else.
Racing in steep, often icy, tight gates is different than free skiing. For my daughter to gain confidence my U10 daughter skis multi-event skis, Fischer RC4 Speed Jr. She does well, consistently placing in the top 5 out of 15-20 racers, in part because she can actually ski the equipment properly. No GS suit, no special wax, no silly pole and protection equipment, and no special skis. She places high because I watch and work with her on her technique. I talk with and LISTEN to the coaches recommendations about how to help her improve technique.
It is advised for next year, U12 she ski on different skis. Depending on her weight I'm going to purchase a higher performing ski, but not 2. For an 11 year old the idea seems silly particularly because the GS courses in this are generally the same length as the slalom. Form me it's about boot flex and the ability to purchase a ski to help, not hinder her technique and her ability to confidently compete at the next level, U12.
There is plenty of time for 2 pairs of speciality skis and for me to prep skis before a race. Right now some kids are better than her and some aren't. At 10 years old I like that the focus of her coaches is about developing technique and having fun inside of a competitive environment. The reality is that a majority of U10 racers won't ski in high school, fewer in college and only dozen or so will go past that.
IMHO a large portion of a childs success at the U10 levels is attributed to parents being pragmatic and not getting caught up in purchasing what they want. Rather about purchasing what their kids need to help develop proper race technique.
I have had three U12s in the past few years, from top of the podium to dead last.
1. One pair SL and one pair GS is definitely enough, even for the best. A pair of rock/powder skis is nice too.
2. Out here in New England the lighter kids tend to go with Rossis. They also have nice reliable Look bindings.
3. Go a little longer than you think with GS. Shop guys always seem to push short GS skis. If he's good he will go faster on longer skis.
4. Get the boots fitted and aligned, even though they'll only last a season. Rossi/Lange and Head seem to make the best junior race boots.
1. One pair SL and one pair GS is definitely enough, even for the best. A pair of rock/powder skis is nice too.
2. Out here in New England the lighter kids tend to go with Rossis. They also have nice reliable Look bindings.
3. Go a little longer than you think with GS. Shop guys always seem to push short GS skis. If he's good he will go faster on longer skis.
4. Get the boots fitted and aligned, even though they'll only last a season. Rossi/Lange and Head seem to make the best junior race boots.
Never a bad idea, but I have yet to see any equipment measuring at a U10, U12 or U14 race. (other than checking for the new FIS sticker on helmets and making sure there are no go-pro mounts attached)
The challange for jury is technically you don't just go off the topsheet, you should measure the actual ski to determine complience....(which at the U10-12 levels...even U14 there isn't specs outlined as far as I know). I have not been a part of any Jury/ROC that was equipped to measure equipment at anything below FIS.....and even at FIS the only time I've seen measuing devices was at the WC events.
To respond to BGreen:
As I understand it, there are no rules at all for U12 equipment other than a legal helmet. I have never even seen a race official check equipment at this level, nor seen any 10 year old disqualified for his equipment! USSA is trying to make the equipment requirements more user-friendly to lower the barriers to entry, which is the right thing to do. Especially at the U12 level.
As I understand it, there are no rules at all for U12 equipment other than a legal helmet. I have never even seen a race official check equipment at this level, nor seen any 10 year old disqualified for his equipment! USSA is trying to make the equipment requirements more user-friendly to lower the barriers to entry, which is the right thing to do. Especially at the U12 level.
Correct, no equipment regs for U10/12s
Key note on that: The jury is empowered to prevent an athlete from starting if equipment is deemed inappropriate for the event being contested.
Off-topic a bit for this thread, but there are USSS regs for U14 equipment:
http://my.ussa.org/sites/default/fi...ive/2014-15/documents/2017-2018-Equipment.pdf
For USSS, the protocol for challenging equipment involves shipping said equipment to Park City. In reality, I doubt this ever happens ... usually people don't care that much about what's on somebody else's feet at this level. That said ... they can
Get the right equipment.
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The following are the rules for U12 from the posted USSA link:
"U12 and Younger Equipment
U12 and younger athletes should limit skis based upon the recommendations in the Alpine Training System and the Course Setting matrix. • U12 - two pairs (SL, GS), length ski/size appropriate. • U10 - one pair (multi-event), length ski/size appropriate"
i.e. there are no rules for U12, except:
"NOTE: The jury is empowered to prevent an athlete from starting if equipment is deemed inappropriate for the event being contested."
I.e. don't show up with a snowboard
"U12 and Younger Equipment
U12 and younger athletes should limit skis based upon the recommendations in the Alpine Training System and the Course Setting matrix. • U12 - two pairs (SL, GS), length ski/size appropriate. • U10 - one pair (multi-event), length ski/size appropriate"
i.e. there are no rules for U12, except:
"NOTE: The jury is empowered to prevent an athlete from starting if equipment is deemed inappropriate for the event being contested."
I.e. don't show up with a snowboard
100% based on the skiers need, and hence why I beieve the questions are being asked as parents are trying to make the best decision after learning as much as they can about it. This is why understanding the athlete, being realistic about where they are technically, and having good discussions with coaching staff is key. You certainly don't want to over equip a child, however there are pleanty of U10s and U12s that DO benefit greatly from having specialized equipment based on their ability.
My daughter was outskiing a multievent ski when she was 7....you could see in video how she was applying pressure, the ski was bending and then just absoultely giving out. Put her in a real race ski and the difference was dramatic....she could actully trust the ski was going to be there and continued her development trajectory. If we would've kept her in the multievent ski her development would be significantly impeded.
Simialrly with the GS ski, not requried at her age, but I can say without doubt that her technical ability has improved greatly since we introduced her to using GS skis last season when she was 8 (based on coaching reccomendation) which further progressed her development. Wasn't keen on spending on another ski and tuning more, but we are glad we did as we saw her development trajectory continue to climb. As discussed before, to teach them how to proper work and pressure a ski instead of just riding the sidecut.
She does have a race suit, it doesn't factor in her times BUT the padding is super helpful to her now that she clears panels....it's also part of her uniform and she loves wearing it. (We gave her a choice of choosing anything she wanted within reason after another great year of working hard, listening to her coaches, being a good person, etc. and she chose a new suit over anything else....didn't want an iPad, no big toy, no giant lego set.....just a new suit).
As for protection, I will disagree with you on this one as I think it's pretty critical. If the kids are running stubbies and don't have shinners....it's going to hurt and they are not going to want to make contact with them....which impacts their technical development (you are forcing them to run around, low and wide instead of through the gate). Similarly I have the same view on arm guards.....we understand you don't want to clear with the forearms...but the protection is there in case you mess up (which you do when you learn), my daughter uses them and having them there was instrumental in giving her confidence to clear panel gates (she knows where the gate should be making contact with her...e.g. not her forarms). Granted she was technically already there and ready to make that next step....having some protection gave her some additional confidence to go there. I'm jaw dropped when I see her rip trough a course....and she's only 9. To add, she's run the panels without them and doesn't quite ski with as much attack as when she does have them. From a personal perspective, I partake in masters racing so I get a pretty good understanding of her experience....icy course is challanging....tuned skis for sure check....gates hurt...protection...check!
But it all goes back to the individual child, without parental bias my daughter is very strong and very advanced for her age. She works hard and just "gets it" when it comes to skiing, very coachable and highly motivated. My job as a parent is to provide support, write cheques and ensure she has the appropriate equipment, tuned skis and the opportunies for her to be her best. What this actualy means is different to every parent, there is no right or wrong per say as one has to do what makes the most sense for them.
Forgot to add: As for kids dropping out as they get older...I don't have the exact stats with my but if I remember a lot of this was attributed to costs (it gets more and more expensive as kids get older) as well as where the child placed from a results perspective. Hard to have mom and dad fork out $20k/year when jr is at best 40 out of 50 skiers all the time...and often jr is not super keen to continue racing if he's 10s+ back of the leaders all the time either. The other is small percentage of very strong young athletes that dominate and then no longer have fun when they see the kids they used to beat blowing by them....
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Thanks, we follow the same for U14 here in Canada....didn't even realize the specs as it's just never come up in any races I've been a part of.
Good to know.
There are requirements for U14 radius. Yes, it is checked. Yes, there are disqualifications resulting. Older skis were 14m radius. You can believe me or not. Makes little difference. U12 I don’t know. I’m not too focused on that group this season.
No, that isn’t what that means.
No, that isn’t what that means.
Apologies, I was just trying to help the original poster who specifically asked about U12, not U14.
I understand there are some equipment rules for U14, but in my region (Tristate/Western Mass) I've never heard of a race official checking the equipment except maybe the helmet. There are definitely some U14s at our program with older skis (<17m GS) that went unnoticed. Undoubtedly some regions are going to be more strict about these rules.
I understand there are some equipment rules for U14, but in my region (Tristate/Western Mass) I've never heard of a race official checking the equipment except maybe the helmet. There are definitely some U14s at our program with older skis (<17m GS) that went unnoticed. Undoubtedly some regions are going to be more strict about these rules.
Yes, lots of talk about U10, U12, U14, U16. But ... it all connects. I wish I knew some of the things already in U12 that I later knew in U14 and U16. U12 is a big step up from U10 in most clubs. GS becomes distinctively separate and faster. SL with ”real” gates to cross block.
Totally agree with this and many of your other thoughts.
Have tried to assume a pragmatic approach toward equipment procurement as I'm particularly focused on making sure that my U10, U12 next year, develops properly and enjoys the sport beyond racing. I realize that there's a high probability that using a specialized GS ski and migrating away from a multi-event product should be beneficial for my daughter's progress but just feel reluctant to take the plunge. Not for financial reasons but for more practical, perhaps the opposite of the parent who wants to push their kids into race equipment!!! Perhaps just being nostalgic at seeing my daughter growing older....
Want to see her enjoy the sport and not get frustrated. However with her age, weight, and growing technically ability I realize that better/proper equipment can both help and enhance.
I'm sure that watching your daughter's progress and seeing how better equipment has enhanced her ability has been enjoyable and large source of pride. Any parent should be proud to watch their children begin to excel at any athletic endeavor and grow more interested in a sport, b/c this is skiing that's even better!!!
I appreciated reading your comments as they gave me a lot to consider. Thanks for the reply and for the thoughts.
Rudi Riet
AKA songfta AKA randomduck - a USSS coach, as well
SkiTalk Tester
Contributor
SkiTalk Supporter
Per my boot guru, who also outfits a lot of junior racers, the new Atomic junior boots (i.e. the Redsters that hit the market for the 2017-18 season) are legit and are the equal to Lange/Rossignol offerings in the market. The flex patterns are really great for developing juniors, and they are easily fitted and can be customized a bit depending on individual athlete needs. For U10 to lighter U14s (those who haven't hit their growth spurts), they're a great option.
Rudi Riet
AKA songfta AKA randomduck - a USSS coach, as well
SkiTalk Tester
Contributor
SkiTalk Supporter
It all depends, of course, on the technical ability and weight/size of the athlete. For many of the smaller U12s, cross-blocking gates slows them down and is often done at the expense of turn quality. Once they get some strength and size - and the ability to block without rotating - the armor comes out to play.
I said I would write more when I had time, so here goes. Not sure there is anything that hasn’t been covered yet.
Hope this helps.
Congratulations! Sounds like he’s off to a good start. While it’s good to get different viewpoints, it’s best to trust his coaches. That’s why you pay them.
In general, at U10 level, go with the least amount of equipment that you can reasonably get away with. At U14 there is peace of mind having dedicated race skis that are tuned and ready to go for each run. U12 falls somewhere in the middle. He needs a pair of race-type skis to inspect and warmup on. It’s not uncommon at this age to have a pair of “trainer” (read: not new, but the right size) to warm up and inspect with. I do think it is important at this level to be able to take a couple warmup runs on race skis. If doing so would damage the skis enough to slow them down, then he needs race/train skis. Otherwise, simplify as much as possible. Your coach will tell you when he needs additional skis, but make sure you ask.
You are looking for a ski that has a nice, soft flex. Aside from that, let him try some skis and see what he likes. It is hard to find bad skis. My smaller kids are generally on Rossignol/Dynastar or Fischer, with one on Atomic, and one on Nordica. All of those on Lange boots, though one is on Nordica, but she needs to be on Lange.
When you size skis, keep in mind the kid is standing on 3.5” of boot/plate/binding/ski. That makes a big difference, and it is very easy to forget that and undersize the ski.
My response to that may have come off as flippant. I think the Nordicas with the carbon beam were different, but that may have only been in certain sizes. That was a few years ago, 2013/14 maybe. Otherwise, if they look/flex/measure the same, they are the same.
I think (emphasis on think) that there is a difference between the black and blue skis. I have a U12 we just put on an old pair of ripple top Nordica GS skis (he was on Rossignol) and he loves them.
Same brand is important so the SL/GS/SG skis feel similar and to ease the change going from ski to ski. It is not uncommon for our group to use SL/GS/SG in the same day. That said, as @hbear pointed out, it’s not that unusual to like one brand of slaloms and another brand of GS/SG. Go with what feels good, and don’t overthink it. As noted above, remember the large height jump with gear on.
Excellent.
Careful there. Video is a good tool to calibrate what he feels with reality. Watch it once and move on. Watching video builds neural pathways, so if you are going to watch video on the beach, stick with World Cup video of skiers he wants to emulate. Dig around YouTube for training video of those skiers, particularly early season video of them.
Knowing absolutely nothing about your child, I would say 136 SL, 149 GS is probably a safe start for a small U12. Our smallest U12 girl is on that combination, but it is the blue skis, not the black ones. FWIW, girls seem to like the junior Nordica skis.
Fine for a U10, but U12s tend to get stronger and try to pinch off the line. A ski that forces the arc results in a long term faster skier, IMO.
Hope this helps.
Thanks everyone for all the suggestions. BGreen, thanks for coming back, the above was super helpful.
Excellent advice from @BGreen !! especially this:
"While it’s good to get different viewpoints, it’s best to trust his coaches. That’s why you pay them."
Professional coaches are professionals for a reason!. They have direct hands on experience and training, they can be totally objective and honest about ability/performance /gear selection for that particular athlete based on observation of the athlete and knowledge of the different equipment attributes.
Remember, as most athletes usually figure out eventually "when all else fails, do what your coach told you in the first place!"
"While it’s good to get different viewpoints, it’s best to trust his coaches. That’s why you pay them."
Professional coaches are professionals for a reason!. They have direct hands on experience and training, they can be totally objective and honest about ability/performance /gear selection for that particular athlete based on observation of the athlete and knowledge of the different equipment attributes.
Remember, as most athletes usually figure out eventually "when all else fails, do what your coach told you in the first place!"
Apologies. Thread drift.
This is my favorite thread! At least for today
. It has amazing & insightful information. It would be good to see if we can somehow sum it up and categorize it. Maybe even combine a couple other threads that touched on this subject and make it a sticky. If it waits on me, it won't happen until ski season is over.
I've only been coaching for a few years and personally I find this thread as helpful as some of the parents of athletes. I've only coached U8s and U10s and hope I never move past U10s (that's a different thread), so the insights of the U12s and up, helps me prepare the U10s and parents for what is ahead. I've always said the U12 coaches are my customer and my job is to send them graduated U10s that have the right experiences and skill set.
Shout out to Pugski for providing a platform for such a great exchange of information.
Ken
This is my favorite thread! At least for today
. It has amazing & insightful information. It would be good to see if we can somehow sum it up and categorize it. Maybe even combine a couple other threads that touched on this subject and make it a sticky. If it waits on me, it won't happen until ski season is over.I've only been coaching for a few years and personally I find this thread as helpful as some of the parents of athletes. I've only coached U8s and U10s and hope I never move past U10s (that's a different thread), so the insights of the U12s and up, helps me prepare the U10s and parents for what is ahead. I've always said the U12 coaches are my customer and my job is to send them graduated U10s that have the right experiences and skill set.
Shout out to Pugski for providing a platform for such a great exchange of information.
Ken