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razie

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Don't know about Nordica and Blizzard. I don't see many of either.

In terms of size, for SL, nose height is typical. Any SL race ski of the proper length would work.

Don't be afraid to go longer for GS - I would say minimum his height, average +10cm or more. It is "giant" for a reason and a longer ski at the same radius is more stable than the shorter one. I would even prefer to challenge them a bit at that age with a longer ski that takes skill to turn than a short stick that digs in and it's twitchy ... it all goes back to technique, again :rolleyes:

First year U14:

coach-2.jpg
 
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BGreen

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I can write more later. +1 to what @razie and @Muleski have written. If Nordica and Blizzard look the same and flex the same, they are the same. If not, they’re not. If they look different, they are different. Newer skis are better than older skis, but consider construction as well. I’m currently a believer in longer, softer skis. I think there has been an attitude that kids should be in shorter skis, and then they were made stiffer to compensate. The result is skis that encourage pinched lines. If your coaches are in the pin it to win it camp, shorter is good. Instead, we should be putting kids on longer skis, and going softer to compensate. Regarding brands, all I really recommend right now are Rossignol/Dynastar and Fischer skis, Lange boots. Maybe also Head and Atomic skis and boots. I don’t know much about Atomic, but they did a complete rethink of the entire line and seem to be very good. Head junior skis are soft, until they aren’t, and I don’t know when that changes. I just don’t have much experience there. I do not recommend Fischer boots. FWIW I ski Nordica, so this isn’t about me pushing what I ski.

I think racers and trainers are a very good idea, but they don’t have to be identical. You need to have slaloms to inspect/warm up for slalom, GS for GS, SG for SG, etc. Call it global warming, climate change, a drought, whatever you want, but ski ending rocks are a new reality. If you ski your race skis to the course, you may not have skis to race on. If you inspect a GS on race slaloms and hit a rock, that’s going to be a problem the next day. If you only have one pair of “trainer” skis, go slalom. Thankfully they were trainers, but one athlete severely damaged a ski on the way to the course yesterday. The ski felt bad and the parent had a shop repair it overnight. The result was not ideal and she goes into the race tomorrow thankfully with perfect race skis, but with no confidence after training runs on the damaged ski.

As for what do you need to know, ski boot alignment (canting, etc.) is critical. Most junior boots are strongly canted, many junior racers are pretty neutral. It doesn’t work. Alignment is part of fit. Be very careful with custom foot beds. Most boot fitters mold very rigid insoles that prevent the foot from articulating. From a technique standpoint, they make a big mess. Ski base bevel is also critical. When people talk about alignment, they only think about boots. Well, the base is what touches the snow. If those angles are off, nothing will work well. Parents think gates are important and freeskiing is not important. That’s backwards.
 

Swede

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Nordica and Blizzard have been the same. So have Atomic and Salomon and Rossi/Dynastar. All good stuff, but slightly different feel and flex. Atomic and Sollie have been on the softer side in the latest years from what I can tell. The soft-stiff scale gets rearranged every three or four years when they come out with new construction.
Have been through U10-U16 recently with my daughter and she was on Rossignol and Dynastar from U14 and on. Before that Elan and we tried Völkl and Fischer as well, but she just skied better on Ross. Elan great too, but less common now. Lange boots since day one. Great jr product.
 

hbear

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My daughter also loves her Lange/Rossi boots. Have just got her and worked for her since day one. We are NOT going to mess with that.
 

Muleski

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My daughter also loves her Lange/Rossi boots. Have just got her and worked for her since day one. We are NOT going to mess with that.

My daughter went into Lange when she was eight. Had previously been in the nacho cheese colored Tecnica TJR, which way back when was a tremendous Junior boot. She's 29. Still in a Lange. So maybe 30 pairs over the years? Hers have just worked for her.....She does have some Scarpa AT's!
 

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hbear

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My daughter got hers first pair at 7, they just fit the best (she’s picky and knows when something doesn’t feel good) and she skied then fine. She’s now 9 and in the Rossi version (like the colour and says they match her Blizzard skis better...who am I to argue?). 3rd pair and can’t see us deviating from that. Will be funny when all the “sponsor” talk starts happening (she does not like Rossi/Dynastar skis), I told her she will be sponsored by mom and dad and that way we can make sure you are in the best stuff (regardless of brand) and just mix and match like we do already.
 

BGreen

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@Comish you see a lot of plugs for Lange/Rossi boots for a reason which may not be obvious. There are endless threads here about how important boot fit is. It isn’t. A good fitter can make most boots fit most people. Yes, I get there are outliers. What is most important is flex. Lange understands how to make junior boots that work. I don’t know for sure, but I think the new Atomic boots may be good too. The jury is out on Head boots for me. Some boots are good in some sizes, but I’m still a little unsure. My preferred fitter (who is primarily a Head dealer) and I know how to modify Langes to change cuff angle (it’s a bit of an ordeal, but worth it) and deal with typical fit issues. I wanted to move most of my athletes out of Langes because I thought the work required to make them neutral was stupid, but ultimately they just work.

On the fit side, junior Langes are available in two widths, two cuff heights, and flexes from 65 to 120, where the ZJ and ZA plugs take over.
 

Muleski

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@Comish you see a lot of plugs for Lange/Rossi boots for a reason which may not be obvious. There are endless threads here about how important boot fit is. It isn’t. A good fitter can make most boots fit most people. Yes, I get there are outliers. What is most important is flex. Lange understands how to make junior boots that work. I don’t know for sure, but I think the new Atomic boots may be good too. The jury is out on Head boots for me. Some boots are good in some sizes, but I’m still a little unsure. My preferred fitter (who is primarily a Head dealer) and I know how to modify Langes to change cuff angle (it’s a bit of an ordeal, but worth it) and deal with typical fit issues. I wanted to move most of my athletes out of Langes because I thought the work required to make them neutral was stupid, but ultimately they just work.

On the fit side, junior Langes are available in two widths, two cuff heights, and flexes from 65 to 120, where the ZJ and ZA plugs take over.

BG, might help others to know what age athletes? I know you have a very good handle on this....
 

BGreen

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BG, might help others to know what age athletes? I know you have a very good handle on this....
U10 - U16.

EDIT: That’s a very misleading statement. I’m really only working with U12 and U14 this year, primarily U14. I did work with U10 last year and three seasons ago. However, our program is small and information is shared freely.
 
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Comish

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So I'm kinda confused on the sizing thing...

He currently has 125cm SL and 135cm GS which seems to work well and seems like a good difference between SL and GS.

Nordica/Blizzard do a 136cm SL and a 142cm or 149cm GS. I'm thinking to go from 135cm to 149cm in GS would be too big a jump so leaning toward the 142cm, but from what I have heard 10cm is about the right difference between SL and GS? 136cm SL and 142cm GS make sense? Obviously it depends on how much he grows next year, but from a theoretical spread from SL to GS does that make sense?

He is also quite small weight wise for his height so I get worried about him bending the longer ski... As I mentioned before, he is <70 ibs and one of his buds on Mammoth is nearly 100ibs...

Thanks all for the various opinions!

We learned the hard way on the boot flex as well. Had some older Rossi's that the back of the cuff is more or less fixed to the lower so it just didn't flex. All mini Comish's have been flexing much better since we went to Lange's. I have heard over and over that their kids boots are the best.
 

hbear

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Mostly based on skier skill and current development from my perspective.
Can go longer for a better skier (and better I mean technically, e.g. On outside ski, able to have independent feet, can ski arc to arc without just riding sidecut, etc.) There is a fine line between pushing them and over equipping them....you don't want to over equip.

Also consider that course setting at that age still biases to the lower bound of the allowances, so if you are getting Jr. a longer ski they are really working to make it work in the course. Should also ask the coaches as they are the ones setting in training and have a better sense on how courses are set in the region.

If you are looking at 136 for SL, it'll be the 149 for GS typically. For context my daughter (9) is on the 129cm SL for Blizzard and skis the 144cm GS from Head. She also has a 136cm SL from Blizzard she uses for any wider SL or Glalom sets and will ski that as her SL ski next year as well. We will pick up the next size up SL ski next season as the tweener set ski and she will also move up to the 151cm GS. I will still keep her current GS ski just in case. N+1 for ski size if you can swing it. She's a very strong skier and one of the top (if not the top) skier in her age group provincially (doesn't mean much at her age, but suffice to say she can rip....)
 

Swede

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Re length, talk to coach as he/she will have the full picture re your ”reality”. But in U12, GS becomes faster and a longer ski is better for most. When my daughter was on 135 in SL she was on 152/155 in GS. A 15-20 cm difference SL/GS is not radical in U12.

Re boots and Head, a few tried in my daughters team, very few liked them. 2:nd hand market flooded here. Lange/Ross, Nordica/Technica and Atomic/Salomon were the weapons of choice seasons 2011-2017 (in our club).
 
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Comish

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Mostly based on skier skill and current development from my perspective.
Can go longer for a better skier (and better I mean technically, e.g. On outside ski, able to have independent feet, can ski arc to arc without just riding sidecut, etc.) There is a fine line between pushing them and over equipping them....you don't want to over equip.

Also consider that course setting at that age still biases to the lower bound of the allowances, so if you are getting Jr. a longer ski they are really working to make it work in the course. Should also ask the coaches as they are the ones setting in training and have a better sense on how courses are set in the region.

If you are looking at 136 for SL, it'll be the 149 for GS typically. For context my daughter (9) is on the 129cm SL for Blizzard and skis the 144cm GS from Head. She also has a 136cm SL from Blizzard she uses for any wider SL or Glalom sets and will ski that as her SL ski next year as well. We will pick up the next size up SL ski next season as the tweener set ski and she will also move up to the 151cm GS. I will still keep her current GS ski just in case. N+1 for ski size if you can swing it. She's a very strong skier and one of the top (if not the top) skier in her age group provincially (doesn't mean much at her age, but suffice to say she can rip....)


Sorry, when you say "N+1" what do mean? Likely haven't had enough coffee this morning or this cold that has invaded the Comish house is making me foggy...

Any particular reason you like Head for GS and Blizzard for SL? Any knowledge on when the last time was that the Blizzard's changed? Heard from one shop yesterday they haven't changed in at least 3 or 4 years, but I take it all with a grain of salt...

Thanks all for the perspective. Super helpful!
 
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Comish

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This is the generation for the slalom ski in question (nevermind that this one is a GS). Anyone know if its changed since 2015? Couple shops claim not, but not convinced they know what they are talking about. Its so hard to find people that truly know the reality...
upload_2018-2-25_11-16-11.png
 

hbear

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N+1 just means a ski that works right now and the next size up.

As for Blizzard SL and Head GS that is just what she liked the best and what she skied the best in. We have a bunch or reps that come down and bring all their race gear for a race demo...so the kids get to try out everything from the manufactures that participate.

She was on Fisher SL the year prior (wasn’t much Blizzard/Dynastar representation before) and they just worked for her skiing style so we switched.

Always been in Head for GS, again they just work.

Honestly not much significant changes year over year...especially for the U10-U12 they won’t notice any subtle changes. Mostly new graphic technology.
 

Swede

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This is the generation for the slalom ski in question (nevermind that this one is a GS). Anyone know if its changed since 2015? Couple shops claim not, but not convinced they know what they are talking about. Its so hard to find people that truly know the reality...
View attachment 40183

That is a terrific ski for a lot of kids. Can’t say if it has changed this year, but I wouldn’t worry too much about the latest incarnation in U12.
 
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Comish

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That is a terrific ski for a lot of kids. Can’t say if it has changed this year, but I wouldn’t worry too much about the latest incarnation in U12.

That was my gut, but some above have said newer is better so gotta ask the questions... Thanks
 

Swede

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Newer is generally better, but from what I have seen there are no quantum leaps made in the latest 6 years, and most skis are actually still the same but with new graphics. As long as it is the right length and a model that is suitable for your kid, I wouldn’t worry about getting a 2015 model.
 

BGreen

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Please make sure all skis used in racing are legal to current rules, especially skis used in qualifier or championship events. It’s very easy to have a situation where everyone loses. The rules around skiing with illegal equipment were created around FIS or WC level athletes trying to cheat and leave little room for discretion — a jury can vote to waive sanctions and/or not destroy the skis. They apply equally to 12-year-old skiing on old skis.
 

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