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Comish

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Got a U-10. He has had some success getting 4th in a Far West Slalom and is one of the top 2 or 3 at Mammoth in the U-10's. He will be 10 in July so a U-12 next year.

Couple questions for those that have been through this before:
-When does he "need" 2 pairs of skis for each event? I know plenty of U-12's will have trainer and racing pairs, but when in reality does one need it? Ie, he will be disadvantaged performance wise by only having a single pair. Don't care what is "cool" so looking at this more objectively. He doesn't care at this point which is great.

-He is a little guy, <70ibs when many of the other kids are 80 to 100 ibs. Any suggestions on brands of skis that might be better for alighter weight dude? How different are all the various junior race skis? Any hierarchy in terms of flex to the brands?

- What length are U-12's skiing GS and slalom typically?

Anything you wish you had known about equipment for your kid that you learned later? I know way too much about fat skis and basically didly squat about race skis, although having bought some used stuff, they are dang fun!

Oh yeah, getting 1st gondi car to the top of the mountain with your 9yr old = Priceless!

HKoJiLIEafeIAXuIW6S2-bHUTKZn_yDzpL2ZhUz80jwAQQ-8mXUUZRj7US2_zh7En6Sb1duY4RhK9pgKWNURoi8yh9ZTL5C7w-1N



ai0QMR6HeP6CYufqUb4-8eVuiE-9A6kTaT2LLX3lZ9YV27aGJri-1bW1EW1tJped6PPBBi3YFxIdXCd4lZDhSq7oN0R2QokAWtsQ
 

Sibhusky

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What do I wish I had known sooner? The importance of a good boot fit. Throw the issue of them fitting next season out the window and fit for the current season with a fitter who is not trying to pander to your parental ideas of how a shoe should fit. When I finally got my kid a plug boot that was essentially sculpted to her foot, she stepped up her performance noticeably.
 

razie

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Make sure he's got well fitted boots, with just enough room to get through one season. At U12 he may benefit from custom footbeds - but that's not universal.

Maybe if you get towards state/national level towards U16, then having two pairs may matter. Even then, the general recommendation is to use them both equally for training and racing, so you don't have one with a rounded base and soft from 40 days of training and the other super sharp and stiff with only 6 days on it, to surprise you on race day. Even at U19 it is common to inspect a GS race on SL skis, to save the super-wax for later.

The most important thing? Make sure he gets the best technical training available. That's the right age!
 

robertc3

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At U12 I would definitely say one pair of skis per discipline. If you want to get fancy you can do the race right and race left thing and swap for training, but nothing beyond that at his age.

With him being up the size differences will get more and more noticeable. My son is a first year U12 and his best friend on the team is a second year. His friend is 8" taller and weighs at least 40# more. The only thing that can be done is to work on technique (unless you have a ready supply of HGHogwink). Eventually, the small kids with great technique will grow and the big kids who got by on their size will fade toward the back of the pack. Ski length is totally based on skier size and ability. My son is 4'-4" and 60# skis a 130 gs and a 120 sl.

A great fitting pair of boots is ideal, but depending on how small he is may be hard to achieve. We talked to our coach about my son’s boots and he said that the upside of having legs too small to allow the boots to really fit properly was that he has developed great balance over his skis. One of his coaches had the group do a drill where they unbuckled their boots for a run to work on a balanced stance. My son never rebuckled the boots because he could ski fine with them unbuckled. That all isn't say don't worry about boots (I wish we could get him a great race fit for sure), but your son is already having success with his current setup, so I wouldn't go to WC levels of boot fitting effort.

My only advice is to keep working on technique and ski the whole mountain. Take the race skills to the steep terrain and the steep terrain skills to the race course.
 

Muleski

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You're obviously not serious enough about this, or he'd have a birthday in early January! Just skiing in that, though I know a former USST racer, who literally held on to deliver at about 12:15 AM on January 1st. She was two weeks early. Thought she had this timed perfectly, a December 31st bday........not so good. And yep, there are people who DO take this "crap" that seriously.

My advice is to always huddle with the coaches first. I don't want to start a brushfire with this. Not all programs are the same, an even in the "best" programs, you find a huge range of knowledge with respect to equipment. The big clubs often have "equipment coaches" for say, U14 and older age groups. At the younger ages, pretty unusual, but hopefully you have a coach to help.

I could make a case for a lot of skis, and a case for few. I don't think there is a bad choice as long as they are the right size, and are well maintained throughout the season. Some parents have the time to tune skis, and the skills, others do not. If your child's skis aren't set up the right way, and aren't sharp, with "greasy" bases that slide well, it just makes things harder. I'm not talking wax as in "fast", as it's expensive wax, IMO and IME is a complete waste of money at this age. Different topic.

Boots are absolutely the most important. DO NOT buy them too early. DO NOT guess on how much he is for might grow, and try to buy on deep discount in the spring. I have seen that mistake dozens of times. The need to fit him just right when he first goes on snow in the late fall. And when he says his toes hurt, be prepared that you might need a new pair. Kids can go through a lot of boots before they get their "adult foot." I can't comment on specific boots, or flex over the net. A good boot fitter who knows younger kid race boots is invaluable. The coaches should help point you the right direction. You don't need to go "nuts", but they must fit and work right for your son. It depends on his foot and physiology.

As far as skis, the coaches can tell you want they want U12's on. Is he skiing in the program at Mammoth? I think the key is to be on what they recommend. If it's one pair of SL and one pair of GS, then do that. Ask the coach{es}. I would be very surprised if they have any kids on Multi Event Skis. At least none that they feel have "potential." Some clubs, rarely, will strongly suggest two pairs of each. As @razie mentions, you don't really have people with a pair of trainers an race skis. This is more of a thing as the kids get older, but you want to train and race on skis that are as identical as possible. If could be that it's the same ski for your son {or skis}. My son has coached at a club with a full time in snow U12 program and every kid has two pairs of GS and SL. Some buy three pairs of SL as they blow apart more. I think that's excessive.

My experience is that at this age, having the same "stuff" {not brand....all of this stuff is good}, but the same general setup as the other kids is important. It's just easier. Might be even more important with girls.

The coaches will appreciate being asked for their advice. That's my recommendation.

BTW, cute pic.
The end game of loving skiing and still doing it with your parents every now and then is a good one! WE'll visit our kids, now about 30, and working in the business, and it's fun. A lot.
 

hbear

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Boot fit is massive....cannot be stressed enough.

Here our kids have a pair of SL, a pair of GS and free skis. No need for a trainer pair....way overkill at this age.

I’d say learning to arc a GS ski is huge, not all kids at U12 have them (it’s not required) but I will say the kids that get on them early and learn how to properly use them (e.g. not just ride the sidecut of their SL ski) make huge strides. The challenge is that often course sets at races might be set to the shorter radius end given they know lots of kids are running SL or multi skis....makes it hard when jr is on a 15m ski and the set is on the narrow end of 14-18m panel distances.

From a coaching perspective this is the critical age for technical development. Get them on the outside ski, get them using independent feet, and have them learn to turn under the gate and set a higher line through the panel. Learning these things later one just take that much longer and are tougher to do once slopes get steeper.
 
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Comish

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Yes, Mammoth team. Have talked to coaches, but that is good advice to consult them.

Given that I have 7yr old twins behind him, I have basically taken to buying at least 1 or 2 extra sizes of bigger boots so I'm carrying quite a bit of inventory in Chez Comish. As someone that in a past life worked in a shop in JH and has chicken legs, I have learned a fair amount about boots, I can at least confidently say he is in the right shell size. Since I have the next size in the closet I don't worry about upsizing or growing since i know someone in my tribe will use the boots.

I might take the same strategy with skis and buy 2 pair for each discipline knowing the girls will each get a pair.

We have already had separate SL and GS skis for U-10 although I got a package deal on some used stuff from another family :)

Yep, last Monday was special. To pop the top with your 9yr old in a nearly a foot of fresh was amazing! At first I didn't understand why they didn't have Team on Monday, but now I'm super psyched how it worked out.
 

UGASkiDawg

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My best advice...

Hold on for a sweet ride!,
Cheer him on and leave the coaching to the coaches.
Let him have as much independence as he wants.
Make sure he roots for his teammates.
Make sure he kicks his teammates behinds on occasion!
Up your skills as you will need them when he wants and has time for you.
Enjoy every stinking second of it because it's gonna go by so fast.:D
 
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Comish

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Sorry, 2 more questions:
-Nordica and Blizzard, are they the same thing? One suggestion was to get the same brand GS and SL. I can find the Nordica SL skis cheap and the Blizzard GS skis cheap, figures... So, are they the same or are there actual differences to them?

-Any difference in the last couple years? ie, is a 2018 ski much better than a '15 or '14 ski? Obviously I can get deals on the older stuff so wondering what sorta changes, if anything substantial, to the kids stuff.
 

Muleski

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Here are a bunch of other thoughts.

1. Mammoth is a very good program {big, and good}. I would absolutely get the advice of whoever the equipment "guru" coach is for the U12 age group. Believe me, there will be one who knows VOLUMES more about this than most others. And he/she will want to be helpful. It's also "not good" if you ignore coach input and then blow it.

2. I have three kids who have coached kids at the U12-FIS Levels {still do} at some of the biggest clubs/academies in the country. The hardest parents to work with are the ones who feel that they are experienced in this. One of my kids had a U14 group where every kid had at least one parent who had skied on the WC and they there the easiest group of parents that he every dealt with, as they followed his recommendations {and at that age let him work directly with all of the companies}.

3. Sounds like quite the stockpile of boots! I am sure that you know how to fit boots, and even deal with he chicken legs. But let me askjk this. How do you know that they are the best/right boots for him? Not size, the actual boot design. There is a best boot for every kid, at every age. And they can vary by age. One of the clubs that I mention had a LOT of U14's in an Atomic boot, yet none in that boot when they kids moved into their first plug boots. So, it's worth a conversation with the coach{es}. I have a daughter who is 30 months younger than our son. She never used any of his "stuff." He was pretty hard on it, and in terms of boots, their foot shapes, and basics physiology was entirely different. Actually she was quite small but git her good sized adult foot early, which posed real problems.

4. Ski age. I would be pretty hesitant to hold onto skis for three years after your son has used them, and pass them on to your daughters. I might take a chance if they were new, properly stored, etc. But, the technology on even their skis does change every couple of years. My experience with girls is that right about at you r daughters' ages, if in a race program, fitting in is important. And that even extends to having skis like a lot of the other kids. When they are MUCH older, used older speed skis can be cool. Otherwise.....Just think about it.

5. There is absolutely no real reason to buy the same brand for GS and SL. 98% of the ski parent world does it. Heck.....we're used to it. If you're dealing directly with a race rep {not some local "rep"} and are concerned with a relationship and getting good USSA pricing, it makes all the sense in the world to have the brand be the same. In fact, with three kids, it might be even ore advantageous. Ask the coach. In terms of product? My concern when ,my kids were younger was to get them on the best equipment for them. In fact, for about a four year period, the best SL skis for the were not the same brand as the best GS skis, and the best boots were not affiliated with either company. And by the way, that was four different ski companies and two different boot companies. We had plenty of funny conversations. Really funny when that dreaded sponsorship word comes out of other kids and parents mouths. That could be a whole separate and very humorous thread. Believe me.
For example, when my daughter was a J4, Elan made a tremendous SL ski and a horrific GS ski. Volkl made a great GS ski, and a not so great SL ski. Make sense? You'll probably end up with one, and that's fine, too......as they are all pretty darn great.

6. Mammoth tends to have good snow. If you were in the East, where the snow can "vary", I might have different ideas about how many pairs of skis, and trainers versus race skis. If you have the time and interest to keep the skis in really good shape, it sounds like you'd be fine with one pair of GS and one pair of SL skis.

7. If I were back in those ages, I would have my kids ski ever possible minute on their GS skis. Some very, very god coaches have a bias for SL skis. Including the guy who coaches MS as a J4 and J3. But as @hbear mentioned, knowing how to ski a GS ski, and how to work it, how to truly pressure it, how to really carve it with good balance is all key. I would be dollars to donuts that your sons's coach will be more concerned with that than anything else next year. Forget the gates, forget the clock, forget the results. Making good, clean turns . So back to me "ask the coaches about boots and skis......" About four years ago, I was watching a coach working with a group of first year U14's. These kids are now amomg some of he best first year FIS skiers in the world. Their training venue was sprinkled with courses, and kids, and a lot of slapping practice. His kids were all free skiing, with serious purpose. No gates. I watched them ski down and when the other kids were headed in, get back on the lift. The eventually come down again. This time making what looked like perfect GS turns in succession. So I asked him what he was doing. "Trying to get them so that they can make 4 good turns in a row. We're close. When they get to about six or eight, we'll train in a course a bit more. They are never going to reach their potential until they ski exceptionally well." Funny, this past week we heard that about Hirscher, HK and MS among others. Very different than most clubs.

8. If Blizz and Nordica kid skis are not twins, they they are close siblings. I'll ask. Or.......ask the coach. And I'm not saying that I wouldn't buy a 2014 ski, but some of these skis are a lot better. Others were already really great and have changed very little. I believe that Fischer has made very few changes, and that's still a great ski. Rossi has had a lot of changes, and thee are a lot of coaches {and kids} who love their line up.

To be honest, they are almost all good. I know you have boot experience. But I'd want that right, first. I had my son in too much boot, too soon, one summer. And my daughter in not enough boot. They fit perfectly.


So neat tat you son loves this. Our youngest is 28. We love to ski together as a family, when we can. 3300 miles of distance make sit hard! Enjoy these days and have fun!!
 

ScotsSkier

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My best advice...

Hold on for a sweet ride!,
Cheer him on and leave the coaching to the coaches.
Let him have as much independence as he wants.
Make sure he roots for his teammates.
Make sure he kicks his teammates behinds on occasion!
Up your skills as you will need them when he wants and has time for you.
Enjoy every stinking second of it because it's gonna go by so fast.:D

This is the most important piece of advice of the lot!! There is nothing that drives a professional coach more nuts than this! Oh I lie, there is. When the helicopter parent that thinks he can also coach tries to lurk 50 feet behind the group you are coaching!!:micdrop:
 

razie

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I don't think there's a reason to get same brand between SL and GS other than having similar bindings (so parts, plates, upgrades, knowledge etc) - which is a good idea. I tend to only buy Head and Fischer race skis, for this reason (they use the same plate and bindings). Great skis too!

"They are never going to reach their potential until they ski exceptionally well."

So true. Being a good gate basher will only take you so far. Being a great tech skier will open a lot more doors later...

This is why I think I wrote that the most important thing imho is to get the best technical training available. That may not be from the club's assigned coach, though I hear above that it's a good club - so maybe they do know what they're doing... and I would re-iterate: don't focus on getting many pairs of skis... this is the one to focus on!

Interesting about GS skis. That's been also the approach of our high end U14 group coach (long time WC & USSA). He's getting some results now. I for one tend to stay with the disco sticks and/or alternate.
:crash:
 
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Comish

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Thanks for all the info, really appreciate it. The main reason I'm asking so many questions is that, even though I have asked and had a good and welcomed conversation, I got pretty broad brush strokes on rec's. ie: GS skis bridge of nose to top of head. No preference on brand. There was a preference for the same SL and GS ski brand. Recommended trainers and racers, but totally up to the parent. Not required. That is a large generalization, but the jist of the rec's. I know enough that there is more to this than that. Hence my digging and questions :)

Mammoth is a great hill, some good coaches, but isolated. Therefore few reps, not nearly as many fanatical tech people as say Tahoe or Park City. That could refer to tuners, boot fitters, true gear freaks. So its sometimes hard to get the best scoop.

3. Massive generalization, but nearly all the younger kids are in the Lange 50 or 60 boot. Some occasional Dobie 60's, but that is it. So far they have seemed to work, but keep in mind I'm talking to 7 and 9 yr olds so feedback is limited until they are too small and hurt and then I hear about it that second! Hence why its nice to grab the next size that I paid $60 for instead of rolling down to Footloose to pay $250 for the same thing. I think it gets more "interesting" and important as they get older/bigger/faster and therefore probably won't necessarily pre-buy the bigger boots for the reasons you have suggested.

4. We are also weekend warriors, not 5 days a week skiers, so wear and tear isn't insane. We do enjoy a nice long season. Beginning of Nov - May at least, last year had camps in June and July and skied on July 30th. Not this year :( I figure these might last 2 years and then the girls get them for their 2 years. Who knows, maybe they won't last that long, but I don't be crushed if that happens as it means they were used.

Luckily my kids don't give 2 sh*ts about brand. Yet anyway :) They have been quite happy with whatever Dada gets them and even when asked they say its not important so not super worried about that part, yet anyway...

6. Having gone to College in VT, yes we do have good snow and its way easier on the skis so agree with that.

7: Yep, he skis his GS skis all the time, unless they are supposed to be on SL skis. Mammoth tends to do 1/2 day free skiing / drills and 1/2 day playing in gates, depending on the weather and schedule. If it snows its fat ski time. He free skis on GS skis or those old too small twin tips when it snows since his ski tech, me, has been too slow to mount the new fat skis I got for $75 this summer, although we haven't had the snow to warrant it until maybe now? Fingers crossed the storm door is opening.

Cheers all for the info. Much appreciated!
 

Muleski

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This is the most important piece of advice of the lot!! There is nothing that drives a professional coach more nuts than this! Oh I lie, there is. When the helicopter parent that thinks he can also coach tries to lurk 50 feet behind the group you are coaching!!:micdrop:


Not meant for the OP, @Comish, but more general "stuff":

Many years ago, I had the program director at a big club ask if I would come speak to a group of parents. I thought he meant a a dozen. He meant a couple of hundred. He wanted to drive home this topic.....PLEASE LET THE COACHES DO THEIR WORK, AND TRUST THAT THEY WILL DO IT WELL. I don't know how many times I can say it, but parents who have experience in the sport are often the easiest to deal with.

So in my talk, we had about a half dozen PowerPoint slides.

One was " J3 Junior Olympics didn't mean a thing." Basically, results at young ages are not important.

Two was "There is this thing called puberty. It happens and changes everything". I have seem this SO many times, and it can be all over the place.

Three was "Cheer on every kid. Dispense a lot of hugs and high fives. Bring good food and snacks. Write big checks, frequently. Make it fun for everybody. It only lasts for so long." The parents that my kids remember the may as kids, were the ones who really supported every single kid. The ones who stuck around to watch the last kid down the course. The mom who brought cookies for every single kid. That stuff. I remember the parents who asked the coaches how they could help the most.

It's not all that hard. The WC skiers, some of whom coach, KNOW that coaching their own kids doesn't work too well. Chances are that MS, Lara Gut, Marcel and HK don't live in your house! So what's worked for them might not work for the rest of us!

Coaches can be a HUGE help, and a huge influence on your kids. Try to keep that in mind.
 
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Thread Starter
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Comish

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This is why I think I wrote that the most important thing imho is to get the best technical training available. That may not be from the club's assigned coach, though I hear above that it's a good club - so maybe they do know what they're doing... and I would re-iterate: don't focus on getting many pairs of skis... this is the one to focus on!

I don't disagree with this, but my theory is a little along what UGASD and ScotsSkier said. I leave the coaching to the coaches. They have their program and I'm not sure how I'm going to influence who he gets his training from. Its the only game in town or for 300 miles and they have some legit coaches. Not all, but certainly some. Current women's WC speed coach was at Mammoth the last few years before going back to WC. Head of the program, albeit not sure how much coaching he does, used to be WC coach for many years.

I will take runs with Mini Comish in between his race runs, if he wants me to, which so far he has. I'm the mental reset guy. We had tears last year at Squaw at the Championships after pulling a 360 around a stubbie slalom gate. His buddy thought he needed a chocolate crepe, I asked him if he wanted to go ski KT? He said lets go ski and halfway down KT he was happy as pie. Same thing at an earlier race this year. Tears about the first run. I didn't even have my boots on since it had rained the whole night prior. I quickly booted up and we just went skiing for a few runs to get the head clear. Other than that, I'm the annoying parent in the middle of the run taking video/pictures as he likes to look at them and analyze them when we get home to the beach.

For me its about trying to make this crazy insane sport we all love cost a few $$$ less or enable my bigger quiver, and therefore I tend to hunt the good deals down. If I pay $299 for my Head Monster 98's that means I could afford my QLab's that I also paid $299 for. If I paid retail or even $600 that isn't happening. I'm kinda looking at the kids race ski thing the same way.

If a '15 Dobermann is largely the same as the '17, then if I pay $175 for it instead of $350, then I can 2 pairs which can be handed down. That only works if the '15 is largely similar or I'm not putting him/the girls at a huge disadvantage. He is fine with 1 ski for each discipline and believes its very much about the turn and technique. Having twins that follow gives me all kinds of needs for future gear :) . It was interesting to me that the coach did say that he did the trainer/racer thing for his kids and recommends it, but also says its not required.
 
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razie

Sir Shiftsalot
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Sounds like you got the right ideas...

The worst is indeed that helicopter parent who thinks can do a better job, but just gets in the way. And, if it's so isolated, then yeah, that's that. Around here there are many skills camps and other programs etc.

Have fun!
 
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Comish

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Good film for people to watch. Can't say I learned anything I didn't know. I'm not disagreeing with all advice to focus on the boots, just that my knowledge in that realm, at least getting a good shell fit and boots the kids can flex is adequate. I own the dowels shown in the video as an example. You should hear the negotiations when they say their toes are hitting the front right after putting their foot in the boot and I'm telling them to flex the boot :) . The teams also always do a check at the start of the year on all the kids boots to make sure they are right sized and can flex them. All super important points.

My knowledge on the ski side, not so much :) hence all questions. Thanks everyone for the input!
 
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ScotsSkier

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I don't disagree with this, but my theory is a little along what UGASD and ScotsSkier said. I leave the coaching to the coaches. They have their program and I'm not sure how I'm going to influence who he gets his training from. Its the only game in town or for 300 miles and they have some legit coaches. Not all, but certainly some. Current women's WC speed coach was at Mammoth the last few years before going back to WC. Head of the program, albeit not sure how much coaching he does, used to be WC coach for many years.

I will take runs with Mini Comish in between his race runs, if he wants me to, which so far he has. I'm the mental reset guy. We had tears last year at Squaw at the Championships after pulling a 360 around a stubbie slalom gate. His buddy thought he needed a chocolate crepe, I asked him if he wanted to go ski K2? He said lets go ski and halfway down K2 he was happy as pie. Same thing at an earlier race this year. Tears about the first run. I didn't even have my boots on since it had rained the whole night prior. I quickly booted up and we just went skiing for a few runs to get the head clear. Other than that, I'm the annoying parent in the middle of the run taking video/pictures as he likes to look at them and analyze them when we get home to the beach.

For me its about trying to make this crazy insane sport we all love cost a few $$$ less or enable my bigger quiver, and therefore I tend to hunt the good deals down. If I pay $299 for my Head Monster 98's that means I could afford my QLab's that I also paid $299 for. If I paid retail or even $600 that isn't happening. I'm kinda looking at the kids race ski thing the same way.

If a '15 Dobermann is largely the same as the '17, then if I pay $175 for it instead of $350, then I can 2 pairs which can be handed down. That only works if the '15 is largely similar or I'm not putting him/the girls at a huge disadvantage. He is fine with 1 ski for each discipline and believes its very much about the turn and technique. Having twins that follow gives me all kinds of needs for future gear :) . It was interesting to me that the coach did say that he did the trainer/racer thing for his kids and recommends it, but also says its not required.

:beercheer: Great approach, perfect example of what we like to see!!!

When it comes to the Doberman (at least in the adult boot!) the 05 is basically the same as the 17...:rolleyes:

And as MS and others have said, 2 pairs of each discipline is probably overkill at this stage. As to different brands, well I use different brands for each of the 4 disciplines!! Originally it was based around what deals I could get but has since moved more to which skis I know work best for me in particular events. Plus of course this assumes I can work some sort of deal on them as well! Good news is that tehre are very few bad race skis out there now. If I was being comped them I would not feel I was giving up results on any of the major brands . Minor differences in the way they ski but all work well. For adult skis I point athletes at different brands based on their weight and ability but I am not familiar enough with U12 skis to make recommendations. I will check with our U12 coach to see if she has some insights.

I am not acquainted with the U12 program at Mammoth but I know how good their Masters program is and how professional the whole race dept is so I suspect your son is getting a very good grounding
 
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TS
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Comish

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Oh yeah, there are 2 picts from the Sugar Bowl slalom a couple weeks ago in the Racing Kids thread for an idea of current slalom form. Got some well love old slalom skis at the moment that don't seem to be hurting him.

SS, know all about the Dobie boots (have only skied in them since '01 from the old WC Soft 150's through to the WC EDT versions), its the skis I'm clueless about... Thanks!
 
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