Inside foot pull back

[Rod9301]

Is it possible the in pulling the inside foot back, what's important is the tension, so at the time of the transition, shuts unweighted, the tension you created pulls the ski back so you're balanced from the beginning?

Because obviously, all the pulling back is not going to eliminate tip lead, because boots are pretty stiff.

It will eliminate some to lead, due to a lack of inside foot, but not all of it.

 

[Doby Man]

Is it possible the in pulling the inside foot back, what's important is the tension, so at the time of the transition, shuts unweighted, the tension you created pulls the ski back so you're balanced from the beginning?

Because obviously, all the pulling back is not going to eliminate tip lead, because boots are pretty stiff.

It will eliminate some to lead, due to a lack of inside foot, but not all of it.

Rod, I can work with what you say here.

... and BTW, I do not mention ski instructor, race coach and bootfitter experience in any way to assert any of my arguments. For me, those jobs were merely a product of being a ski bum. One can do all three for years and not know very much. Nor would I post a video of my own skiing to support words that should be written to stand alone. There are quite a few illustrious world cup race coaches that are not very good skiers. There are many elite skiers that could not orate their way out of a wet paper bag. There are a lot of contributors on here who have done none of it and are very knowledgeable.

 

[Chris V.]

IMO the remedy of pulling the inside foot back is very much a case of treating the symptoms and not the disease.

The disease is an imbalance of upper body inclination over angulation often caused by beautiful conditions on intermediate western slopes where this imbalance can flourish and thrive without many consequences.

An abundance of upper body inclination leads to a progressive condition known as "tip lead".

I certainly respect your conclusion, and I expect it's true in many cases. But maybe not all. There are skiers who lack the natural ability to dorsiflect the ankles adequately, or who have boots that are excessively stiff, at any rate for their individual body types and abilities, thus impeding dorsiflexion. They end up like the poor guys in black in this video (presented in a different context, it's true):

 

[razie]

This popped up on my suggested youtube videos - thank you all knowing lords of the internet. Not inside foot pull back per se but certainly relevant here.

Good one. She is pulling it so far back, it ends up on a different step...

 

[razie]

Let’s see: in a “high performance” turn, you are creating several times your body weight in forces on you base of support. What’s the remaining ten percent of those forces on your inside ski going to amount to?

...What do we do until the fall line?

 

[Fuller]

Good one. She is pulling it so far back, it ends up on a different step...

Yeah I noticed that, and it was also pointing to the ground so not quite the correct demonstration. What I did get out of it though is pulling the inside foot back will be more successful if the inside hip is in the right place to begin with.

 

[JESinstr]

Yeah I noticed that, and it was also pointing to the ground so not quite the correct demonstration. What I did get out of it though is pulling the inside foot back will be more successful if the inside hip is in the right place to begin with.

Here is my go to video on this subject from Kate Howe.
I think we might be seeing that the the tip lead issue may have its source in the pelvic/hip region and that a conscious and mechanical pull back of the inside foot is not the proper remedy.

At 10:00 minutes in, Kate addresses what she calls tic/toc turns.
At 10:30 she talks about com bos alignment and that she is always trying to get to the center of the ski vs the tip of the ski. This is also my focus and one of my teaching "hot buttons" . What she does not clarify is if she trying to get to the center of the ski or the center of shape. Based on how she is explaining it, I believe it is the center of shape.

enjoy

 

[razie]

Let’s see: in a “high performance” turn, you are creating several times your body weight in forces on you base of support. What’s the remaining ten percent of those forces on your inside ski going to amount to?

...What do we do until the apex?

Let’s see: in a “high performance” turn, you are creating several times your body weight in forces on you base of support. What’s the remaining ten percent of those forces on your inside ski going to amount to?

Also... Talk about weighting the inside ski and not pulling it back - how you like the Ski Racing cover for the last race?

 

[Tony S]

This has been said before, but maybe not often enough.

It seems mildly crazy to me to use video of actual races to help elucidate technique for everyday skiing. I totally agree that racers have the technique that we want to emulate, but in an actual race that technique is so affected by the level of challenge presented by the course set, hill, and snow conditions that it becomes fragmented, like a beautiful stained glass window made into a kaleidoscope. In between the fragments is chaos. The higher the level of competition, the more true this is.

If I were a coach, I'd want my clients to have a mental picture of the window, not the kaleidoscope. Yes, we all have to deal with chaos, but when learning to deal with it you start from a place of order and then begin throwing in variables one at a time.

With this in mind, what I like to do is watch what the good coaches and racers are doing when they're free skiing on more or less easy terrain. Sometimes I'll get lucky and be able to tail one for half a run or so. I'd like to see that kind of skiing presented here more often.

(Those of you who do that already - thanks. No need to say, "But I do!" )

 

[Johnny V.]

It seems mildly crazy to me to use video of actual races to help elucidate technique for everyday skiing. I totally agree that racers have the technique that we want to emulate, but in an actual race that technique is so affected by the level of challenge presented by the course set, hill, and snow conditions that it becomes fragmented, like a beautiful stained glass window made into a kaleidoscope. In between the fragments is chaos. The higher the level of competition, the more true this is.

How true Tony. To try to prove or disprove a point with one photo or a brief video clip of a high level racer just doesn't make sense and a lot depends on the photo angle. The last thing these guys or gals are thinking about is technique during the race run.

 

[razie]

How true Tony. To try to prove or disprove a point with one photo or a brief video clip of a high level racer just doesn't make sense and a lot depends on the photo angle. The last thing these guys or gals are thinking about is technique during the race run.

But it also doesn't make sense to see it so often and for some to try to shoot it down everytime...

The point is that racers have the extreme range of movements to make things visible and the ski Racing magazine staff the experience to pick relevant shots... and cameras in all angles...

P.s. as I agreed to above, racing is also a lot of recoveries... it often takes a trained eye to pick relevant shots.

 

[razie]

Enough time on this one - last post for me on the topic/thread: if your inside boot stays under the body without you feeling any contact or tension behind the heel (i.e. having to pull it or keep it back) when you get over 60 degrees lean angles (to the snow), more power to you! I'd love to see some shots of you!

To finally try a simple answer to @Philpug 's question - on how much shuffle is ok- my rule of thumb when analyzing video is "no more than maybe half a boot". Although it varies on several factors, that's as close as I can come to a simple cue/measure.

Also, since I am used to putting all cards on the table and nobody brought this up yet - I don't expect this concept to resonate much with USSA coaches either (above and beyond "keeping your feet underneath you") because they were really big into "the wall" concept, which for me is just "lazy counter" (because it just makes one shuffle ahead the entire inside half of the body, without any care or tension to keep the foot back). My understanding though is that they started backing off "the wall" concept in later years... and, if true, that may take time to filter down the ranks...

cheers

 

[Noodler]

Keep in mind that PMTS is rooted in good racing technique. HH kind of "reverse engineered" the movements used by the top racers and developed a program for recreational skiers that builds on what he has determined are the essentials of skiing. Now you might not agree with the approach or the program (or the man), but for me, when I look around at the skiing that I most admire, the skiers performing that skiing are all either proponents of the system or exhibit all the essentials of those skiing characteristics.

Of the skiers I admire, I have now added Razie to my list. After getting to share turns with him on multiple days in varied conditions, I was incredibly impressed with the sheer beauty of his ski turns. You would be hard pressed to find a smoother, more dynamic skier. Razie is able to attain high edge angles in the blink of an eye and take the energy from each turn and feed it into the next. He has trained extensively with Heluva and it shows. When Razie speaks, I listen.

 

[Monique]

So, student poking her head in here again.

I mentioned before that the idea of pulling back the inside foot seemed to help me with my "lazy" right leg, which has been misbehaving since the knee surgery. It helped, but I still found myself lifting that inside leg a lot in 3D snow.

Last week, an instructor suggested thinking of "rolling" my ankles, and that seemed to help, but again, still dragging that leg around.

Today, my instructor reminded us of his strap drill to get that inside knee going - ie, he literally ties a strap just above both knees so that if you don't keep your stance wide enough and fairly even, the strap will fall to your feet. I call it "teaching by fear." I didn't get the chance to use the strap today, but I played with the concept. Again, it helped, but not enough. My instructor observed that my inside leg's turn was delayed - especially when it's the right leg. (I can't think of the typical instructor term for it - but anyway, not simultaneous.) Then I noticed that a slight retraction, or getting my body forward, or getting upside down, or whatever you want to call it, seemed to help with getting that dang leg to move.

So when he asked me on the lift, I told him that if I combined tele turns, slight retraction, keeping my inside knee wide, and trying to initiate the turn with the inside leg, it sure seemed to work, but it was an awful lot to think about. So he offered me a simple way to do all of that. Picture pulling inside heel to outside butt cheek. I know I've heard this before, but it never made sense to me before. Today, the penny dropped. It really does do all of those things - keeps the stance a more consistent width, gets inside turn initiation going, and pulls the legs back. In my mind, I was worried that it would cause some sort of weird V shape to my skis - but in fact, it was just compensating for my previous bad behavior, so they were more parallel.

All of which makes me wonder - do I really want to pull my inside leg back, or do I want to essentially pull them BOTH back, which gets me over my skis, from which position it is much easier to turn? And how much does pulling my inside leg back really help when the actual tipping of that leg is an afterthought, and my knee is still too close to the outside leg? I think the answer is, it helps, but maybe only so much.

That being said, I don't think I could have gotten to the point where "bring your inside heel to your outside butt cheek" made any sense (and obviously, no, I'm not actually trying to kick myself in the butt) without being reminded of all the other pieces first. And while that cue paid immediate dividends for me in 3D snow, it didn't ping at all for another student in the group fighting similar issues. I guess this is why instructors have 101 ways of teaching the same thing.

Also, I'm going to bring my strap the next time I ski. It's doing no good on the coffee table, and the upcoming relatively dry spell should be a good time to play with it on groomers.

 

[Noodler]

Also, I'm going to bring my strap the next time I ski. It's doing no good on the coffee table, and the upcoming relatively dry spell should be a good time to play with it on groomers.

Major thread drift...

So the point of the strap above your knees is to get you to widen your stance? Why? What is his reasoning? Is this another case of misunderstanding the difference between vertical separation (seen in high edge angle skiing) versus horizontal separation (for so-called "stability)? Before you really commit to this, please ask yourself why a wider stance would be preferable in skiing? Consider that in powder, moguls, cut-up, or any other more challenging condition, a wide stance is a recipe for nothing but trouble. So why adopt a wide stance even if skiing groomers? Skiing is a dynamic athletic sport that doesn't require stability; it requires balance.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Major thread drift...

So the point of the strap above your knees is to get you to widen your stance? Why? What is his reasoning? Is this another case of misunderstanding the difference between vertical separation (seen in high edge angle skiing) versus horizontal separation (for so-called "stability)? Before you really commit to this, please ask yourself why a wider stance would be preferable in skiing? Consider that in powder, moguls, cut-up, or any other more challenging condition, a wide stance is a recipe for nothing but trouble. So why adopt a wide stance even if skiing groomers? Skiing is a dynamic athletic sport that doesn't require stability; it requires balance.

No, the idea would be that she has to tip the inside ski first or the strap falls down.

 

[Tony S]

No, the idea would be that she has to tip the inside ski first or the strap falls down.

Yeah, I need to try that, for that reason.

 

[Monique]

@Noodler - Exactly what @epic said. It's not to encourage a WIDE stance - it's to develop a consistent stance that does not widen and narrow throughout the turn. I don't know what kind of students you typically teach, but even our very good skiers found it helpful. It also improves our railroad tracks.

Play with it ... it's pretty interesting. Of course, you have to be comfortable that your students are ready for it. To my knowledge, no one subjected to this drill has ever dropped it to their feet. But a lot of us now carry our own straps for "tune-ups" and warmup runs.

 

[4ster]

I can't think of the typical instructor term for it - but anyway, not simultaneous

Sequential?
(Not necessarily an instructor term)

 

[Philpug]

Sequential?
(Not necessarily an instructor term)

Are you around to ski this week?