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Noodler

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I find that if I get lazy and don’t pull back my inside foot, I flirt with ending up with a huge amount of tip lead and become unable to engage the new inside edge when I turn. Then my old inside ski wants to keep going in the direction that it was going, my body thinks that it is trying to move down the hill, the leg that will become my new inside leg has no idea where to go, and well, it is not very pretty. If you guys can’t follow what I just described, then imagine how I feel.

Exactly. If you're lazy with the positioning of the "old" inside foot, when it becomes the new inside foot at the top of the turn, you won't be able to pressure it correctly if it's too far forward (CoM behind BoS as the PSIA-folks say it). Then the new inside ski will just run off to the side and not get edge engagement so that you have the ski working correctly in the high-C portion of the turn. If you don't have high-C engagement, you're not really working the skis until what should be the apex of the turn, and the result is usually a hard edge set at the bottom and what we call "grinding" the bottom of the turn. You end up grinding where you should already be "light"/releasing and working on the top of the new turn.

This all can stem from poor free foot management. Keeping that inside foot back is actually a fairly critical skill in high performance turns (at least if you want more than one in a row ;) ).
 

bbinder

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Exactly. If you're lazy with the positioning of the "old" inside foot, when it becomes the new inside foot at the top of the turn, you won't be able to pressure it correctly if it's too far forward (CoM behind BoS as the PSIA-folks say it). Then the new inside ski will just run off to the side and not get edge engagement so that you have the ski working correctly in the high-C portion of the turn. If you don't have high-C engagement, you're not really working the skis until what should be the apex of the turn, and the result is usually a hard edge set at the bottom and what we call "grinding" the bottom of the turn. You end up grinding where you should already be "light"/releasing and working on the top of the new turn.

This all can stem from poor free foot management. Keeping that inside foot back is actually a fairly critical skill in high performance turns (at least if you want more than one in a row ;) ).

Indeed. For me, if I keep aware of what my inside foot is doing and keep in under me/pulled back, I can engage the new inside edge at the top of the turn as the rest of me continues to move down the mountain.
 

Tony S

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Indeed. For me, if I keep aware of what my inside foot is doing and keep in under me/pulled back, I can engage the new inside edge at the top of the turn as the rest of me continues to move down the mountain.

The term "new inside edge" is ambiguous. Some readers will hear "big toe edge of the new outside ski." Others might hear "little toe edge of the new inside ski."

If you guys are talking about the former, it makes sense to me.
 
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Erik Timmerman

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Side View:
View attachment 60702
View attachment 60700

4:30 in the turn
View attachment 60696

Turn transition:
View attachment 60701

Back View:
View attachment 60697

As much as I tried to pull the inside ski back, I could not pull it back any further because if the stiffness of the boot and my ankle closing any more.

If Phil was strong enough or his equipment was soft enough for him to pull the ski back, would this be better skiing? I think not, the issue is one of upper and lower body separation both rotational and in terms of leveling the hips (those are easier to do if you do both!). If he did that, the inside ski would probably come back closer to the outside ski. It kind of goes back to my OP, if you look at this skier and all you have is "pull back the inside ski!" you are probably not going to "fix" him. If you say it long enough and he tries hard enough, maybe he will eventually do it and maybe it will go up the chain and improve other things, but why not just go to the cause?
 

François Pugh

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The inside foot pull back and results are a bit different in pure arc-2-arc carving than they are in short-radius non-carved turns, a bit different with flex to release transitions than with extend to release transitions, different in terms of rotational effects, different in terms of COM BOS relative position.

A description and explanation for one type of skiing by someone can be hard to understand by someone else if they are not thinking of the same type of skiing.

One just needs to play with it and observe one's own skiing.
 

bbinder

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The term "new inside edge" is ambiguous. Some readers will hear "big toe edge of the new outside ski." Others might hear "little toe edge of the new inside ski."

If you guys are talking about the former, it makes sense to me.

Good point. I was typing late at night after a couple of large Kirins. I was referring to former: big toe edge of new outside ski.
 

Noodler

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The term "new inside edge" is ambiguous. Some readers will hear "big toe edge of the new outside ski." Others might hear "little toe edge of the new inside ski."

If you guys are talking about the former, it makes sense to me.

My previous post is screwed up (long day on the mountain!). I meant to say new "outside" ski, not inside, regarding having insufficient pressure on the ski due to positioning of the old free/inside foot.

So given that, I would change it to just "new outside ski" and not refer to only one of the edges because both edges of that new outside ski are engaged sequentially; first the LTE, then the BTE as the top of the turn progresses.
 

Noodler

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The inside foot pull back and results are a bit different in pure arc-2-arc carving than they are in short-radius non-carved turns, a bit different with flex to release transitions than with extend to release transitions, different in terms of rotational effects, different in terms of COM BOS relative position.

A description and explanation for one type of skiing by someone can be hard to understand by someone else if they are not thinking of the same type of skiing.

One just needs to play with it and observe one's own skiing.

In the other ski teaching "religion" there is no use of extension for release, thus the foot pull back movement is no different for edge-lock carving or brushed carving.
 

Noodler

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Good point. I was typing late at night after a couple of large Kirins. I was referring to former: big toe edge of new outside ski.

Wasn't your fault - it was mine! My post clearly messed with your brain; you knew what you meant, but it didn't come out correct in the writing.
 

François Pugh

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In the other ski teaching "religion" there is no use of extension for release, thus the foot pull back movement is no different for edge-lock carving or brushed carving.
Not according to their dogma, but in reality without the edge being locked it does introduce a beneficial rotational effect to non-carved short radius turns (shsh - it's a secret).
 

JESinstr

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A medical approach:

IMO the remedy of pulling the inside foot back is very much a case of treating the symptoms and not the disease.

The disease is an imbalance of upper body inclination over angulation often caused by beautiful conditions on intermediate western slopes where this imbalance can flourish and thrive without many consequences.

An abundance of upper body inclination leads to a progressive condition known as "tip lead". Excessive tip lead destroys one's alignment, especially as it relates to the inside foot. This misalignment attacks the skiers ability to have a stable BOS (at the ready for the new outside ski) when transition is contemplated.

The Cure: Learn to angulate. Understand that shortening your inside leg is key to creating angles as is separation of the upper body (at the waist) from the lower body. It is not just pulling your inside foot back but more a function of keeping the inside foot under your butt cheek from start to finish so that it can promote angulation and be in position as the new BOS at transition.

In addition, take some Ibuprofen and call me in the morning.
 

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Noodler

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The Cure: Learn to angulate. Understand that shortening your inside leg is key to creating angles as is separation of the upper body (at the waist) from the lower body. It is not just pulling your inside foot back but more a function of keeping the inside foot under your butt cheek from start to finish so that it can promote angulation and be in position as the new BOS at transition.

Please share what muscles you are using to keep the inside foot under your butt cheek... Do you find yourself needing to push it forward or pull it back to accomplish this? Or does it just "magically" remain in the correct position throughout the ski turn?

Re-read Razie's previous post about simulating a deep high edge angle turn by standing on the side of a steep hill (or even use a staircase). When you have a large amount of vertical separation between your feet, what muscle action is required to keep your inside foot aligned under your "butt cheek"?

Surprising that we're at the 12th page of what is a fairly simple concept in skiing. I only weighed in because I saw too many people trying to analyze this in isolation, when in fact a ski turn has lots of parts that work together; hopefully correctly. Inside foot pull back is just part of the elements needed to achieve a high performance ski turn. It might be that some are taking the term "pull back" too literally; believing that what is being suggested means that we're pulling the foot until it's in "back" of us, when that's not the case at all. Inside foot pull back is using just enough contraction of the hamstring & glute (along with some dorsiflexion) to reduce/eliminate tip lead that would result in a poor balance management through the turn and poor preparation for the new turn.
 

JESinstr

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Please share what muscles you are using to keep the inside foot under your butt cheek... Do you find yourself needing to push it forward or pull it back to accomplish this? Or does it just "magically" remain in the correct position throughout the ski turn?

Re-read Razie's previous post about simulating a deep high edge angle turn by standing on the side of a steep hill (or even use a staircase). When you have a large amount of vertical separation between your feet, what muscle action is required to keep your inside foot aligned under your "butt cheek"?

Surprising that we're at the 12th page of what is a fairly simple concept in skiing. I only weighed in because I saw too many people trying to analyze this in isolation, when in fact a ski turn has lots of parts that work together; hopefully correctly. Inside foot pull back is just part of the elements needed to achieve a high performance ski turn. It might be that some are taking the term "pull back" too literally; believing that what is being suggested means that we're pulling the foot until it's in "back" of us, when that's not the case at all. Inside foot pull back is using just enough contraction of the hamstring & glute (along with some dorsiflexion) to reduce/eliminate tip lead that would result in a poor balance management through the turn and poor preparation for the new turn.

Noodler, I hear ya and am sympathetic with what you wrote and also where @razie is coming from. I just come at it from a different perspective having to deal with first timers coming in off the street as well as those with more advanced capabilities.

Your Paragraph 1:
I am not concerned with what leg muscles are used to obtain proper alignment with my inside foot. What I do know is what it feels like to establish a proper base of support through the arch pillared by the balls of my feet and my heel. I know the feeling of foot tension that kind of BOS creates as the forces build into the turn. I know that shortening my inside leg while maintaining that BOS results in higher edge angles. Like many on this forum, I advocate skiing with our feet (proper BOS) and all things good will flow from there.

Your Paragraph 2
As I said I am in agreement with Razie's positions. It all makes sense. I will submit that in high performance turns, we need to focus on what we need to do when the legs run out of angle creating movements.

Your Paragraph 3
- I agree with you completely on your isolation comment
- You make a great point on the term "pull back" and IMO a large percentage of the people who read this thread are to gonna head to the slopes and unfortunately, do just that.
- When I read you final sentence, my brain says "tension". I just think about tension in my boot vs my leg.
 

Doby Man

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Experiment: Put your boots and skis on in the living room and sit in a chair with your feet underneath you. While sitting upright, try sliding your (inside) ski pulling it back while flat on the carpet, pull them under you using a hamstring contraction and try to dorsiflex your boot but, without significantly pressuring the ski. You will find that it will be impossible to dorsiflex your boot with that hamstring contraction. Now, stand up so you can cast your CoM over the front of your boot and put weight the shovel and then dorsiflex and you will flex the boot. Viola! WC racers and elite technical freeskiers ski with equally stiff but dorsiflexed boots because they are skiing on two skis instead of one such as the days of Ingemar Stenmark and Phil Maher.

We can use the free power of static gravity of the CoM over a pressured inside ski and get the dorsiflexion we seek to emulate. Do the above experiment and you will find that a hamstring contraction over an unweighted inside ski gets you nothing. The problem with the “pullback” concept is that it was originally described with ambiguous inputs leading interpretation to the hamstring contraction which is simply not how it works. If we describe “pullback” as the rearward orientation of the BOS in relation to the CoM, it works as described above.

The problem with many skiers is also that their boot is too stiff and the only dorsiflexion they getting is out of the top of the boot from the compression of the soft liner material between the shin and the boot shell’s upper cuff. They are not getting functional flexion out of the hinge in the shell thus losing the ability to provide dynamic pressure to the ski with real boot tension. When a power strap is worn too tightly, it takes away that last bit of opportunity to flex and keeps the skier off the front of their skis leaving them to fight for every little bit of pressure they can manage over the shovel. In this case, a hamstring pull back is like a mosquito hitting a brick wall.

Don’t take my word for it. Do the experiment and put this question to rest for yourself.
 

Noodler

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Experiment: Put your boots and skis on in the living room and sit in a chair with your feet underneath you. While sitting upright, try sliding your (inside) ski pulling it back while flat on the carpet, pull them under you using a hamstring contraction and try to dorsiflex your boot but, without significantly pressuring the ski. You will find that it will be impossible to dorsiflex your boot with that hamstring contraction. Now, stand up so you can cast your CoM over the front of your boot and put weight the shovel and then dorsiflex and you will flex the boot. Viola! WC racers and elite technical freeskiers ski with equally stiff but dorsiflexed boots because they are skiing on two skis instead of one such as the days of Ingemar Stenmark and Phil Maher.

We can use the free power of static gravity of the CoM over a pressured inside ski and get the dorsiflexion we seek to emulate. Do the above experiment and you will find that a hamstring contraction over an unweighted inside ski gets you nothing. The problem with the “pullback” concept is that it was originally described with ambiguous inputs leading interpretation to the hamstring contraction which is simply not how it works. If we describe “pullback” as the rearward orientation of the BOS in relation to the CoM, it works as described above.

The problem with many skiers is also that their boot is too stiff and the only dorsiflexion they getting is out of the top of the boot from the compression of the soft liner material between the shin and the boot shell’s upper cuff. They are not getting functional flexion out of the hinge in the shell thus losing the ability to provide dynamic pressure to the ski with real boot tension. When a power strap is worn too tightly, it takes away that last bit of opportunity to flex and keeps the skier off the front of their skis leaving them to fight for every little bit of pressure they can manage over the shovel. In this case, a hamstring pull back is like a mosquito hitting a brick wall.

Don’t take my word for it. Do the experiment and put this question to rest for yourself.

The problem with the entire premise of your exercise is the assumption that the inside ski is significantly weighted in high performance/high edge angle ski turns. If you're putting enough pressure on your inside ski to do what you state in the exercise, then quite simply... You're doing it wrong. You need a ton more counterbalancing and >90% of the pressure focused on the outside ski. I have significant doubts that we're talking about the same kind of ski turn. Note that I'm not a wide track, equal pressure, just roll the ankles proponent (if it wasn't already obvious).

Also, I completely disagree with your concepts and assertions regarding the stiffness of ski boots. But that battle is for another day...
 

Kneale Brownson

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Let’s see: in a “high performance” turn, you are creating several times your body weight in forces on you base of support. What’s the remaining ten percent of those forces on your inside ski going to amount to?
 

Doby Man

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I'm not "assuming" inside weight because I suggest that it is tried with and without. Yes, ski pressure distribution compared to the 80's is another discussion. Everything is so interrelated, it can be very difficult to encapsulate a concept. Things are still very outside dominant but is much more overlapping as compared in the videos below. Today, racers are often initiating or completing the turn on the inside ski which is not really possible when using 100% weight shift and the inside lift is all but gone as depicted the below example of racers which can be considered the model for technical freeskiing/carving. I have more experience as a race coach than I do as an instructor and prob have much more of a USSA perspective. Still, though, I don't think you can flex your boot with your hamstrings unless your flex rating is that of a pair of rollerblades. Regardless, I rest my case with whatever results occur with those who try the experiment.

Re: Even using all the power of static gravity of the CoM over the cuff, I find a lot of people that cannot rotate the hinge on their boot. It is very easy to point it out face to face where there is no escaping the results. Having been a boot fitter, I have shown non believers using a marker across the hinge that will show no displacement for those who cannot rotate their hinge. Then I show them the compression of their shin through the soft material of the liner at the top of the boot with a piece of tape. It can be somewhat demoralizing to the guy who just spent 250 fitting and footbedding a 750 dollar pair of boots with a 140 flex rating. I think that now that flex ratings have become a headliner to ski boot marketing, some people are feeling the need to express their ego with the digits.There is a very technical article in the skire's manifesto about this that I agree with completely. He also makes the distinction of skiing on "two" skis vs skiing on one as we did in the 80's.

The good old days of 100% transfer and lifting the inside ski:



Today with lots of inside ski carving. Outside dominance is a fundamental that will never go away but that is what has changed the most with modern skis: using both. That said, 100% weight shift for outside balance skill must be achieved beforehand.

 

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