How will Skiing be Different in the '20-'21 Season?

[Bill Miles]

Or use the cattle car approach that NM resorts do....
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Sun Valley used to have open trailers with seats for parking lot shuttles, maybe they will bring them ack.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Perhaps looking at the data from NYC and other public transit would be helpful. As I recall, there was little evidence of transmission from taking public transport in NYC. The initial fears of subways and buses being Covid factories was way overblown. Go figure.

Little evidence that mass transit poses a risk of coronavirus outbreaks

That article does not reassure me about the safety of riding public transportation in the US. It references research in other countries, but nothing done here supports the title of the article. Why would the editors of Scientific American choose that title? Wishful thinking???

[Whoops, I now see that a couple of others have posted more thoroughly than me about the weaknesses in this article's conclusion about public transportation being safe.]

Quoting:
Epidemiologists interviewed for this story couldn’t point to comparable research on contact tracing that focused on U.S. transit systems....

The epidemiologists also were unsure whether riding transit in America was riskier than other activities amid the pandemic, such as going to the gym or eating at a restaurant with outdoor seating.

...transit poses the risk of “high-touch surfaces” such as handrails and elevator buttons that “a lot of people have touched before you,” Perry said.

“Not all surfaces are created equal,” she said. “With the standard surface—let’s say you pick up an item in the grocery store or get a box in the mail—the likelihood of getting COVID-19 is very low. With public transportation, what we’re talking about is high-touch surfaces. And those are higher-risk surfaces.”

 

[Olesya C]

"By April 6th, nearly six thousand M.T.A. workers had been quarantined." The local 100 shop steward was assigned the task of, "looking after the sick and shut-in."

Here is one important question: is the data from the article from April/March when infection rates in NYC were huge and mask wear was not yet mandated and enforced?

I have not read the New Yorker article, but I have read the Scientific American article that @Wendy posted and I agree with it.

Something that is missing from this discussion about risk in a parking shuttle or public transport are the % positivity rates in the area you are riding the public transport. If the infection rates are high, the risk is higher. I agree with the hypothesis stated in Scientific American article that states that mask wearing and social distancing reduces transmission.

Open air parking shuttle like Taos (NM) shuttle is probably the safest, yes.

 

[dbostedo]

Hey folks - Just a reminder to please keep this on skiing and resorts. Some of the recent posts talking about public transit are OK in their connection to skiing this season, but it would be easy to go down a rabbit hole with those. Please don't.

Thank you.

 

[Wendy]

Open air parking shuttle like Taos (NM) shuttle is probably the safest, yes.

Yay for Elk Mountain‘s ”cattle car!”
Literally just a flatbed truck with ropes or a railing to hang onto. A very “bracing” ride on a cold morning.

 

[Carolinacub]

What about ski patrol? On mountain patrolling, not a big deal, but in the patrol room with injured skiers and boarders who might be in there for awhile; that’s another issue.

so far what i'm hearing is that when in the patrol room we will be wearing n95's plus face shield plus gloves (at a minimum) other PPE is alos available as needed,

 

[nay]

Summit County busses are also at 50%. Maybe a state guideline? RTD (Denver Metro) busses are 15 people max.

@nay I think there are hundreds of problem statements in addition to lift line crowding.

• How to have reasonable wait times for reduced capacity shuttles.
• Socially distanced fitting of rental equipment.
• Providing adequate warming space for guests so they don't get frostbite.
• Keeping lines for bathrooms reasonable.
• Preventing spring breakers from overcrowding City Market, the t-shirt shop, liquor stores, and of course pot shops.

Thus the hundreds or thousands of pages of proposed operating procedures.

The one big lever that impacts everything is ski area capacity.

You have to lead with those problem statements to get to ski area capacity for this season, you can’t work backwards.

I think this is why you’ve said you are surprised anybody is making commitments about no reservations for passholders at this point.

Either the pass cap is so low to meet all of the major problem statements already, or it’s a potentially false promise.

As I’ve said, nobody is in a better position than A-Basin to make the promise and cap the pass sales. They have extremely minimal infrastructure for 1,300 acres and the mountain spreads out skiers, and they did this for 2 weeks. Same for Loveland with regards to minimal infrastructure for a big mountain (1,800 acres mostly above treeline).

It has to be exponentially more difficult for a “resort” that has typically crowded “access lifts”. Gondola 1 at Vail? Yikes.

 

[jmeb]

so far what i'm hearing is that when in the patrol room we will be wearing n95's plus face shield plus gloves (at a minimum) other PPE is alos available as needed,

Our patrol will have different PPE protocols for different parts of the patrol building: aid room, offices, team space/locker -- all look different. We will also have a "hot room" for COVID-suspect patients (patients that exhibit signs or symptons, or have a known potential exposure) -- with yet another set of protocols and ventaliation upgrades.

Morning meetings will look different. Patient assessments look different. Use of lift huts looks different.

 

[SBrown]

Aspen has released its plan.

 

[tball]

You have to lead with those problem statements to get to ski area capacity for this season, you can't work backwards.

No doubt. With so many problems to solve, it becomes pretty much impossible.

That's why I think the state is just winging it, and will probably do the same with the ski industry as with others.

There's no science behind 50% restaurant capacity and last call at 11 pm vs. the previous 10 pm. Somehow that's held up in court, though:

Colorado governor lets bars, restaurants serve alcohol until 11 p.m., but continues last-call limit for 30 more days

Gov. Jared Polis on Friday said he will allow bars and restaurants in Colorado to serve alcohol until 11 p.m. starting on Saturday, but extend his last-call order earlier for at least another 30 days. Polis last month required bars and restaurants to cut off alcohol service at 10 p.m. for a...

coloradosun.com

I'm betting the ski industry will be capped at 50%, just like other outdoor recreation businesses, at least to start. Any different, and we'll see lawsuits from the aggrieved industry.

The devil will be the details about how they are allowed to operate at that level safely. Yes, those details are a zillion times easier for the smaller ski areas than the large resorts.

I do think 50% capacity is consistent with the "most days will be fine" language we hear from the ski areas. What they are not saying is "good luck skiing most Saturdays," which will likely also be true.

Further speculating, I think the big shocker will be what happens a county hits "Safer Level 3," and the ski areas in that county have to reduce to 25% capacity, same as other outdoor recreation, restaurants, and places of worship. There is no way politically or legally the governor won't further scale back the ski industry at that level of viral activity.

 

[nay]

Aspen has released its plan.

An unlimited Premier Pass is a great anytime-access pass, but it’s problematic in a COVID-19 constrained world. So, it’s going to be more expensive than in years past, and if infection rates rise, requiring our community to increase social distancing, we will implement a reservation system and reduce the number of people on the hill per day.

$2,400 for unlimited premiere. A good way to adjust demand.

Now the part where they say they are not prioritizing...well...If the reservation system comes and you are holding a $2,400 pass...

 

[John Webb]

@John Webb, you need to start making plans for your trip to Whitefish NOW. Season passes for super seniors if bought before the end of Sept is $135. If you don't plan ahead and just show up to Whitefish last minute then they will force you to splurge on $25 lift tickets ($23 each day for a 2 day ticket).

Whitefish is such a remote destination, when driving, that I'll skip the cheap pass and could easily handle the $23 or $25 day pass. lol

 

[Carolinacub]

Our patrol will have different PPE protocols for different parts of the patrol building: aid room, offices, team space/locker -- all look different. We will also have a "hot room" for COVID-suspect patients (patients that exhibit signs or symptons, or have a known potential exposure) -- with yet another set of protocols and ventaliation upgrades.

Morning meetings will look different. Patient assessments look different. Use of lift huts looks different.

what I've gotten is the bare minimum at this point in time. I talked to the director the other day and he said that everyday another item comes up that they need to address.
Without a doubt this is going to interesting. On a very positive note the loosey goosey mind set is going to get quashed.

 

[John Webb]

Charging for parking is reasonable if you announce it BEFORE you start selling passes. Having already bought a pass myself I calculated value based on the pass price. Any hidden fees or charges that show up after the fact rile me just like they would with any other product.

Northstar got burned on parking fees added last year after most of the various Epic passes were purchased. (for main lot - still free down the hill with a shuttle ride). Multiple lawyers sued them. Some refusing to use their pass and demanding a full pass refund as the rules got changed post purchase. Either they listened or they don't want to run shuttles due to Covid. Main lot parking is now free again.

 

[John Webb]

Powder Mt UT has released their plan.
("Largest mountain" is a stretch unless you count all the flat as a board terrain not really skiable)

Powder Mountain Resort, UT 2020/21 Winter Outlook | Pow Mow Introducing 'Traffic Light' System for Different Scenarios - SnowBrains

North America's largest ski resort, Powder Mountain, UT, has unveiled its operating plan for the upcoming winter 20/21 season.

snowbrains.com

 

[nay]

Powder Mt UT has released their plan.
("Largest mountain" is a stretch unless you count all the flat as a board terrain not really skiable)

Powder Mountain Resort, UT 2020/21 Winter Outlook | Pow Mow Introducing 'Traffic Light' System for Different Scenarios - SnowBrains

North America's largest ski resort, Powder Mountain, UT, has unveiled its operating plan for the upcoming winter 20/21 season.

snowbrains.com

I like the existing daily cap on window sales. Wouldn’t it be cool if everybody did that, anyway, so that skiing doesn’t suck?

 

[pchewn]

Mt Hood Meadows is going to dynamically limit the # of passes sold on peak days, and at peak hours. The plan is to allow everyone to ski without a reservation system. If you can buy a valid ticket for the day/time you want to ski -- then you can ski.

This very informative website and video show some good detail of the % of passholders skiing at various times, the old "capacity" (around 5600) and the new "capacity" (around 3000). Mt Hood Meadows plans to offer incentives and dynamically change the price and availability of tickets/passes (all on-line sales) to keep the actual visits under 3000 at any time.

Sounds good in theory.

Here's where you can see the details and the video (highly suggested).

https://www.skihood.com/en/about-us...UCu6IDTo0Tf89sUcGJ-BtSBVJ8DSY8BW1y5zWvpIx4YCI

 

[crgildart]

Mt Hood Meadows is going to dynamically limit the # of passes sold on peak days, and at peak hours. The plan is to allow everyone to ski without a reservation system. If you can buy a valid ticket for the day/time you want to ski -- then you can ski.

This very informative website and video show some good detail of the % of passholders skiing at various times, the old "capacity" (around 5600) and the new "capacity" (around 3000). Mt Hood Meadows plans to offer incentives and dynamically change the price and availability of tickets/passes (all on-line sales) to keep the actual visits under 3000 at any time.

Sounds good in theory.

Here's where you can see the details and the video (highly suggested).

https://www.skihood.com/en/about-us...UCu6IDTo0Tf89sUcGJ-BtSBVJ8DSY8BW1y5zWvpIx4YCI

So the more in demand the date/time is, the higher the price to buy a ticket for that session? So, Dec 26th-Jan 1st sessions will be like $500 right hahahahaha!

 

[John Webb]

Lesson number one when installing boot heater battery packs: put them on the outside of the boot if at all possible, not the back. Even with lifties you still get whacked!

I had an earlier boot heater, oops on the back, which fell off so many times I lost count. Always managed to find them ! One got whacked by the chair and exploded ! I came back to find the liftee collected all the pieces, springs, batteries, wires, case parts. lol Glued it back together and it worked. Gave up on heaters a short time later.

 

[nay]

Soooooo.....