How to improve skiing?

[Skisailor]

Apex and "fall line" are sometimes used interchangeably, but they don't align exactly in most turns. Apex is when the forces are the strongest, and it usually falls just after the skis have pointed down the fall line. The maximum strength of the forces will bend the skis more at apex.

I've always thought a skier's movements determine how close to the fall line the apex falls.

This. (your sentence that I bolded)

In the 90 degree quadrant concept, the idea is that a skilled versatile skier has the ability to change edge anywhere within a 90 degree range bounded by the following extremes:

- skis go flat when travelling across the hill (most likely the skier is in a very high speed carve) and apex/max edge angle is in the fall line; to

- skis go flat IN the fall line (pivoted release in terrain like super steeps) and apex/max edge angle is when the skis are pointed across the hill.


In a huge generalization - most recreational student skiers tend to release their edges at about 45 degrees above the fall line. More skilled skiers and instructors release somewhat higher in the turn - maybe 65 to 80 degrees above the fall line. This generally means that apex/max edge is actually happening somewhere after the fall line (not IN the fall line as in the idealized turn).

I would probably never talk about this kind of thing with students. But I've found that understanding this concept has alot of application to teaching students and meeting them where they are, so to speak.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Perhaps we should discuss releasing the CoM before releasing the skis.

 

[Uke]

Skisailor,

Your description would fit my description of a defensive/braking turn. Is that your intent?

The only time that I can think of that my skis would not engage before the fall line would be if I was doing pivot slips or demoing a 'point stop'.

uke

 

[Skisailor]

Skisailor,

Your description would fit my description of a defensive/braking turn. Is that your intent?

The only time that I can think of that my skis would not engage before the fall line would be if I was doing pivot slips or demoing a 'point stop'.

uke

Definitely not anything to do with a braking or defensive maneuver! And yes, in most turns our skis do engage above the fall line. So this turn is one at the far end of the quadrant. But a turn in my repertoire, thanks to Ursula, is one where aggressive inside leg shortening (and outside leg lengthening) coupled with movement of the CoM down the hill creates a very short first half of the turn and the skis are flat while facing downhill. Awesome turn in steeps.

Without proper movement into the turn, this could potentially result in defense braking because the skier's torso can be left aft or inside. But not when executed properly.

You were also very right to bring up pivot slips - another "turn" where our highest edge angle (although not very high) is while skis are across the hill.

 

[Skisailor]

Perhaps we should discuss releasing the CoM before releasing the skis.

This is such an important thing, IMO. Interestingly, it seems to have fallen out of favor with our clinicians. Starting just last season they discouraged anything resembling the center of mass movement of old (into the turn) in favor of "tip first".

 

[LiquidFeet]

Release CoM before releasing skis by shortening the new inside leg.
Keep skis on old edges so as to allow them to continue heading across the hill.
Body will topple downhill across the skis (if the turn is completed).
Toppling will begin to untip the skis.
Skier can manipulate how slowly the skis untip then tip onto new edges as this happens.
Skier will be upside down on the hill for the top of the turn, to an extent determined by the skier's movements.

 

[Rod9301]

Skisailor,

Your description would fit my description of a defensive/braking turn. Is that your intent?

The only time that I can think of that my skis would not engage before the fall line would be if I was doing pivot slips or demoing a 'point stop'.

uke

Also if you do a two footed release, just letting the ski tips find the fall line

 

[Uke]

Skisailor,

Assume some degree of forward momentum for the following.

If I am on my right set of edges I will go right, if I am on my left set of edges I go left. What you describe is not starting the new arc until the fall line.If I do that and don't throw in strong braking action it is a recipe for going faster and faster.

Now for some fun.

You can't 'move your body' down the hill or across the skis. You can allow the momentum of your body to move it across or down but as long as I am on one set of edges I have no mechanism to provide the force to push/move my body in the other direction. You just don't know how unpopular you can get with trainers if every time they say 'move the body/com across/down' you ask how and they discover that they can't really tell you how. There are many ways to release the body and allow it to move as I want it to.

uke

edit ps It occurs to me that the turn you describe sounds a lot like what I learned as a 'pedal turn' back in my early years as an inst. For reference I would put that turn in more the defensive category.

 

[François Pugh]

Apex and "fall line" are sometimes used interchangeably, but they don't align exactly in most turns. Apex is when the forces are the strongest, and it usually falls just after the skis have pointed down the fall line. The maximum strength of the forces will bend the skis more at apex.

I've always thought a skier's movements determine how close to the fall line the apex falls. If the skier releases the skis immediately at the fall line, then that's where the apex is going to be. Apex lines up with the fall line in very short retraction turns because of that immediate release.

Below is an idealized turn with apex at the fall line (from Rick Schnellman). This diagram shows a turn that has a top to it and a release that happens immediately at the fall line. The diagram also assumes the old turn was fully completed, meaning skis are pointing across the fall line at the start of the current turn. Most recreational skiers don't fully complete their turns, and they cut off the tops of their turns, plus they fail to release just after the fall line. So this diagram does not describe the turns we see regularly on the mountain. In those non-idealized turns, the apex will be after the fall line.

Turn forces applied at the top of the turn accelerate you at least partially down the hill. Turn forces applied at the bottom of the turn accelerate you at least partially up the hill.

If your goal is to get to the bottom in the least amount of time, but you must keep turning across the hill because some evil course designer has put in gates that you must turn around, you had best get as much of your turning done as soon as possible, hence you would place the apex at or above (if possible) the fall line.

However, if you are fee skiing you can put the apex anywhere you like, so long as the force doesn't exceed the snow platforms strength, and you can achieve the tipping angle. Note that in the bottom of the turn, as you go from fall line to across the fall line, your at the snow force has to be increased to counter the downhill component of gravity. If your sole goal is to experience and feel maximum g force at apex, then put it at the fall line.

 

[dj61]

Release CoM before releasing skis by shortening the new inside leg.
Keep skis on old edges so as to allow them to continue heading across the hill.
Body will topple downhill across the skis (if the turn is completed).
Toppling will begin to untip the skis.
Skier can manipulate how slowly the skis untip then tip onto new edges as this happens.
Skier will be upside down on the hill for the top of the turn, to an extent determined by the skier's movements.

In my view tipping is movement of the feet not the result of moving the body.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@dj61, maybe we don't disagree; maybe it's just the use of words that makes it seem that way. Some people say they start all tipping with the ankles. Maybe they use the word "tipping" to mean tilting their skis after they go flat.

I use the word "tipping" to mean any change in the tilt of the skis, so "tipping" for me means flattening the skis as well as getting them up onto new edges. If I've got high edge angles with a ton of pressure on the outside ski, I'm reluctant to invert that outside foot to start the release. I shorten the leg first. My body's movement across the skis starts them "tipping" them to flat. I add the ankle tipping once the skis are less loaded and more flat. Just talking about high angle turns, here.

This is a question for the community:
Do people who say "all tipping starts with the ankles" invert their outside ankle while it's heavily loaded with the ski high on edge?

 

[Uke]

LF,

I refer to the inversion you are talking about as 'flattening' and it is one of the foundations of my teaching. From neverevers to the most experienced student they will hear that to go left you need to flatten the left foot, and for those further along than the first timers to then continue the movement to start tipping the ski to the new edge. Using the two different terms may minimize confusion for my students. Flattening lets go of the the snow and tipping grabs hold of the snow.

I use tipping and shortening of the leg in combination for almost all transitions. Which comes first and how they are combined is dependent on my intent. In the part of a 'high angle turn' that actually involves high angles no I don't evert but as soon as I am through that part of the arc I begin the flattening process.

As focused as I am on the use of the feet I am also aware that 70 to 80 percent or more of the edge angle is created by the relative position of the com and bos.

uke

 

[Rod9301]

@dj61, maybe we don't disagree; maybe it's just the use of words that makes it seem that way. Some people say they start all tipping with the ankles. Maybe they use the word "tipping" to mean tilting their skis after they go flat.

I use the word "tipping" to mean any change in the tilt of the skis, so "tipping" for me means flattening the skis as well as getting them up onto new edges. If I've got high edge angles with a ton of pressure on the outside ski, I'm reluctant to invert that outside foot to start the release. I shorten the leg first. My body's movement across the skis starts them "tipping" them to flat. I add the ankle tipping once the skis are less loaded and more flat. Just talking about high angle turns, here.

This is a question for the community:
Do people who say "all tipping starts with the ankles" invert their outside ankle while it's heavily loaded with the ski high on edge?

This is called a weighted release, and it's very fast. Used in bumps or whenever the situation calls for.

 

[Skisailor]

In my view tipping is movement of the feet not the result of moving the body.

We can start there but very little actual tipping happens as a result of ankle inversion or eversion. It's fine to start there and to hold this idea in our heads as a cue to start the tipping process. But we really should be fair to students by explaining that almost all of the actual tipping comes from moving the femur in the hip socket, not from "down low".

 

[Uke]

I recall seeing a study that credited 'tipping the feet' with a couple of degrees of edge angle, femoral rotation accounted for up to 20 degrees or so of the edge angle and the rest cane from the com being on the inside of the arc. Several years ago so my numbers here might not be precise but you get the idea. The foot tipping and femoral rotation are primarily used to control the relationship between the com and bos.

uke

 

[Skisailor]

Skisailor,

Your description would fit my description of a defensive/braking turn. Is that your intent?

The only time that I can think of that my skis would not engage before the fall line would be if I was doing pivot slips or demoing a 'point stop'.

uke

I thought about this a little more and wanted to clarify something that might not need clarifying! But here goes anyway. I have had other clinicians question whether this turn type involves bracing or braking. One thing they seem to misunderstand until I show them, is how the outside ski pressure is being generated.

If I were to just "pressure" that ski in this turn by pushing against it or just letting forces build as the ski comes around, I would definitely get stuck bracing against the outside ski, with significant weight on the inside ski, and leaning uphill in a defensive posture. But the key to this turn is that I am moving my CoM agressively down the hill and using my weight to pressure the outside ski. The inside ski is very light. I can lift it up.

I'm not sure if that changes your understanding of what I'm trying to describe or not.

 

[Skisailor]

I recall seeing a study that credited 'tipping the feet' with a couple of degrees of edge angle, femoral rotation accounted for up to 20 degrees or so of the edge angle and the rest cane from the com being on the inside of the arc. Several years ago so my numbers here might not be precise but you get the idea. The foot tipping and femoral rotation are primarily used to control the relationship between the com and bos.

uke

Wow. Very interesting. Thanks for this.

 

[Uke]

Skisailor,

The negative outcomes you mention are almost unavoidable if you push on the ski.but I don't see then happening if you just allow the pressure to build naturally. For me letting the pressure come to me (I don't create the pressure I just manage it) allows me to stay in the center where I can direct traffic.

A couple things about the turn in question. You description make me envision a short turn with a floated,pivoted entry and not a lot of displacement of the ski in relation to the body. Leaving aside the loaded term 'defensive' there has to be a strong element of braking involved here to control downhill speed. Each floated entry involves the com being accelerated by gravity so unless we want the faster and faster scenario we have to brake. Whether intentional or not it has to be there and in you description it all has to come in the bottom of the arc as there seems to be no top of the arc. Through earlier engagement of the edge I spread that braking out over a longer time frame so it is never as intense.

Now for the question that made me so unpopular at clinics. If the effectiveness of the turn is dependent on moving the com down the hill, how do you move the com.down the hill?

Wish I could see the turn you are talking about, words are so inadequate sometimes.

uke

 

[François Pugh]

In my view tipping is movement of the feet not the result of moving the body.

There's no law that says you can't tip your feet while doing the other actions that @LiquidFeet is suggesting

Release CoM before releasing skis by shortening the new inside leg.
Keep skis on old edges so as to allow them to continue heading across the hill.
Body will topple downhill across the skis (if the turn is completed).
Toppling will begin to untip the skis.
Skier can manipulate how slowly the skis untip then tip onto new edges as this happens.
Skier will be upside down on the hill for the top of the turn, to an extent determined by the skier's movements.

 

[Skisailor]

Skisailor,

The negative outcomes you mention are almost unavoidable if you push on the ski.but I don't see then happening if you just allow the pressure to build naturally. For me letting the pressure come to me (I don't create the pressure I just manage it) allows me to stay in the center where I can direct traffic.

A couple things about the turn in question. You description make me envision a short turn with a floated,pivoted entry and not a lot of displacement of the ski in relation to the body. Leaving aside the loaded term 'defensive' there has to be a strong element of braking involved here to control downhill speed. Each floated entry involves the com being accelerated by gravity so unless we want the faster and faster scenario we have to brake. Whether intentional or not it has to be there and in you description it all has to come in the bottom of the arc as there seems to be no top of the arc. Through earlier engagement of the edge I spread that braking out over a longer time frame so it is never as intense.

Now for the question that made me so unpopular at clinics. If the effectiveness of the turn is dependent on moving the com down the hill, how do you move the com.down the hill?
Wish I could see the turn you are talking about, words are so inadequate sometimes.

uke

tt

Accck . . . words. Yes. Would be so much easier to demonstrate on snow.

I think you've got a pretty good idea of what I'm trying to describe. There is some displacement of the ski away from the body, but not in the first half. The concept behind it is to use aggressive inside leg flexion coupled with CoM movement downslope to flatten/release the skis so that the whole first half of the turn - from skis across the slope to skis facing directly downhill - is over very quickly and in a short distance. So there is very little time to pick up speed before we begin the edgier, steered finish. When executed and linked properly, it's very fluid and is effective for managing the descent of steep slopes particularly in narrow sections.

I understand the approach of managing speed throughout the turn, including the top half. I use that technique as well. That rounder, edgier top half, however, seems to me to add MORE speed because we get to our edges that much earlier in the turn. And edges are fast - even when we are using them to steer the ski quickly back across the fall line. The skis are moving more quickly and the forces are trickier to manage, IMO. Anyway - at this point, both of these turns are in my repertoire. But my choices about when and where to use them might be different from where you might.

Lastly - I love love love your question that made you unpopular in clinics!!!