How to improve skiing?

[Skisailor]

Right, and on snow, when your hips face downhill, it's probably steep and you're making shirt turns
Which is exactly when you want to strongly pull the inside for back, otherwise you will be back at the beginning of the next turn

Not at all. With the technique I use in steeps I allow that natural tip lead to develop as a result of the appropriate amount of counter for a short radius turn. Then using a long leg - short leg turn initiation (new inside leg shortens while new outside leg lengthens, and with proper movement of my CoM downhill, I am instantly over the ball of the foot of my new outside ski. No danger of getting back.

 

[François Pugh]

If you stand sideways on the stairs with your hips pointing in the same direction as your toes, and your upper foot two steps above your lower foot, and your feet flat on the steps, you will have your upper toe further ahead. It's simple anatomy; your upper femur is closer to horizontal than your lower femur and your upper knee is further ahead, as is your toe. The only way to avoid it is to contort your hips further around so they are pointing more up the stairs.

We can lessen the tip lead by pulling back the inside ski (more than we pull back on the outside ski).

 

[Skisailor]

If you stand sideways on the stairs with your hips pointing in the same direction as your toes, and your upper foot two steps above your lower foot, and your feet flat on the steps, you will have your upper toe further ahead. It's simple anatomy; your upper femur is closer to horizontal than your lower femur and your upper knee is further ahead, as is your toe. The only way to avoid it is to contort your hips further around so they are pointing more up the stairs.

We can lessen the tip lead by pulling back the inside ski (more than we pull back on the outside ski).

Ok . . so it helped to visualize and feel this by making it a much larger step. I put my "uphill" leg on the arm of my couch. But it still doesn't work for me. My feet stay completely even. What DOES happen is that my upper ankle flexes more than my lower ankle. But they are comfortably even. No contortions.

Now - if you were to specify that both ankles have to have the same exact amount of dorsiflexion, then I might agree that my uphill foot needs to move forward or I have to start doing other things to stay in balance.

Even imagining the restriction of my ski boot, my feet would be even in all but the most extreme difference in the elevation between my feet.

 

[François Pugh]

Ok . . so it helped to visualize and feel this by making it a much larger step. I put my "uphill" leg on the arm of my couch. But it still doesn't work for me. My feet stay completely even. What DOES happen is that my upper ankle flexes more than my lower ankle. But they are comfortably even. No contortions.

Now - if you were to specify that both ankles have to have the same exact amount of dorsiflexion, then I might agree that my uphill foot needs to move forward or I have to start doing other things to stay in balance.

Must be years of training on snow. Try it on some stairs.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
Now - if you were to specify that both ankles have to have the same exact amount of dorsiflexion, then I might agree that my uphill foot needs to move forward or I have to start doing other things to stay in balance.

...and that's pretty much what happens in ski boots when skis are pointed across the fall line.

 

[Skisailor]

...and that's pretty much what happens in ski boots when skis are pointed across the fall line.

Not for me. I mean, not necessarily.

 

[geepers]

If you stand sideways on the stairs with your hips pointing in the same direction as your toes, and your upper foot two steps above your lower foot, and your feet flat on the steps, you will have your upper toe further ahead. It's simple anatomy; your upper femur is closer to horizontal than your lower femur and your upper knee is further ahead, as is your toe. The only way to avoid it is to contort your hips further around so they are pointing more up the stairs.

We can lessen the tip lead by pulling back the inside ski (more than we pull back on the outside ski).

Well, that's part of the answer. Yes, it puts the upper foot ahead of the lower foot. But it doe not create separation of upper/lower body. Otherwise we'd look kind of funny walking straight up/down the stairs.

Maybe this...?

 

[François Pugh]

Separation, a separate, but related (everything is related) topic. There are two things of prime import in upper-lower body separation: the angle the upper body makes with the lower body, (comma shape in old texts) commonly called angulation; and, the direction your belly button is pointing relative to the direction your skis are pointing. Of course hip position is paramount and affects tip lead as well, but imho, it's best to approach these (angulation and counter-rotation) separately before putting it all together.

 

[Rod9301]

Not at all. With the technique I use in steeps I allow that natural tip lead to develop as a result of the appropriate amount of counter for a short radius turn. Then using a long leg - short leg turn initiation (new inside leg shortens while new outside leg lengthens, and with proper movement of my CoM downhill, I am instantly over the ball of the foot of my new outside ski. No danger of getting back.

The only way you will be instantly over the ball of your forf is to strongly pull that foot back.

But this still takes time.

Better to not allow excessive to lead, by always pulling the inside foot back.

 

[Skisailor]

...and that's pretty much what happens in ski boots when skis are pointed across the fall line.

Sorry. Just got back to this. So . . Two major points:
1) Since I use a long leg-short leg initiation my ankles are pretty much doing opposite things most of the time but most likely are flexed equally at transition. So yes. That jives with what you said above. But . . .
2). There is that pesky concept of the 90 degree quadrant. As we've discussed elsewhere before, I disagree that the skis are actually pointing across the hill at transition for most turns. Maybe for Lindsey Vonn. But not for me. We talked about an exercise I do where we follow a fellow skier close behind and just note where the skis are actually pointing when they go flat.

So the thing is - the very terrain that would cause a big elevation difference between my feet (and the need for more uphill ankle flex to minimize tip lead) is exactly the terrain where my turn transition happens closer and closer to the fall line. In a steep narrow chute that transition (skis flat) might happen IN the fall line. So there is never this issue of having to pull back the new outside ski to avoid being backseat when I transition to it.

 

[LiquidFeet]

And as an aside, you're right, @Skisailor, most people don't ever complete their turns... completely.

Since recreational skiing is about seeking sensations and thrills (sometimes), making completely completed turns offers a big kinesthetic rush on otherwise boring groomers. Well, that is, if the skier allows the body to cross downhill over the skis as they continue turning underneath to point fully across the hill. Those turns are indeed entertaining in their own right. It feels like that moment when the roller coaster hits the top of the big climb and just starts free-falling downhill. Fun!

 

[KingGrump]

And as an aside, you're right, @Skisailor, most people don't ever complete their turns... completely.

Since recreational skiing is about seeking sensations and thrills (sometimes), making completely completed turns offers a big kinesthetic rush on otherwise boring groomers. Well, that is, if the skier allows the body to cross downhill over the skis as they continue turning underneath to point fully across the hill. Those turns are indeed entertaining in their own right. It feels like that moment when the roller coaster hits the top of the big climb and just starts free-falling downhill. Fun!

You do have the patience of a saint.

 

[Skisailor]

And as an aside, you're right, @Skisailor, most people don't ever complete their turns... completely.

Since recreational skiing is about seeking sensations and thrills (sometimes), making completely completed turns offers a big kinesthetic rush on otherwise boring groomers. Well, that is, if the skier allows the body to cross downhill over the skis as they continue turning underneath to point fully across the hill. Those turns are indeed entertaining in their own right. It feels like that moment when the roller coaster hits the top of the big climb and just starts free-falling downhill. Fun!

Totally agree that it's fun, except that I don't think groomers are boring! I love it all.

And it IS about turn completion sometimes, but not always. Understanding the 90 degree quadrant and where we change edges in different turn types and terrain was an eye opener for me.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Understanding the 90 degree quadrant and where we change edges in different turn types and terrain was an eye opener for me.

Intrigued... Please do tell.

 

[geepers]

Separation, a separate, but related (everything is related) topic. There are two things of prime import in upper-lower body separation: the angle the upper body makes with the lower body, (comma shape in old texts) commonly called angulation; and, the direction your belly button is pointing relative to the direction your skis are pointing. Of course hip position is paramount and affects tip lead as well, but imho, it's best to approach these (angulation and counter-rotation) separately before putting it all together.

Guess I have a different understanding.

Method I've been taught is to keep hips/shoulders aligned with the ski tips. So as lead changes from one turn to the next the direction our belly button points stays square to the line of the tips and lags the direction the skis point. This is for medium and long radius carving turns.

To intro this we did a drill of putting our stock free hands out in front, square to the body and kept each hand roughly over each ski tip - actually a bit behind as that's too far to reach - as we skied through roller blade turns.

Also, angulation is made up of tipping from the hip and a rotational component. There's only so far we can tip to make angles if we stand up straight, feet pointing forward and hips/shoulders square. It's not very far if you are old and not flexible like me and only a bit further even for the young and flexible. (And I'm not sure that I'd want to be hit with a big dynamic load whilst I was straining to lean my upper body straight down to one side - it doesn't feel like a strong position.) Now turn the legs in the hips sockets so the feet are pointing a few degrees off to one side and we can add a rotational component for greater angles whilst maintaining a stronger position.

BTW I've not perfected this and I'm often under or over separated with consequent affect on grip and/or strength of stance.

 

[François Pugh]

There's only so far we can tip to make angles if we stand up straight, feet pointing forward and hips/shoulders square. It's not very far if you are old and not flexible like me and only a bit further even for the young and flexible.

It's not very far even for the young!
For sure, you can rotate which will allow bending forward to make up for the lack of ability to bend sideways. A good technique if not carried too far, and also sometimes useful if carried too far (e.g. imitating a pretzel so as to get a clean carve on one ski on that first u-turn coming off the lift so you can achieve enough speed on a small hill to make three half decent SG turns )
I like the picture frame best for developing upper body separation in the rotational sense (accompanied by angulation of course).
I like the outside pole drill, the hand on outside boot top (start with knee) and the Schlopy drill for angulation.

 

[Skisailor]

And as an aside, you're right, @Skisailor, most people don't ever complete their turns... completely.

Since recreational skiing is about seeking sensations and thrills (sometimes), making completely completed turns offers a big kinesthetic rush on otherwise boring groomers. Well, that is, if the skier allows the body to cross downhill over the skis as they continue turning underneath to point fully across the hill. Those turns are indeed entertaining in their own right. It feels like that moment when the roller coaster hits the top of the big climb and just starts free-falling downhill. Fun!

Had a bit more time so I wanted to just touch on this again. I agree that those kinds of turns are way fun. I don't agree that one must completely finish a turn with skis pointed across the hill in order allow the body to cross over the skis and move downhill - but that's a side issue. I LOVE that free-fall feeling of moving my body across the skis and down the slope, especially as it gets steeper. That said, I just don't want the 90 degree quadrant idea to somehow get caught up in some kind of negative connotation regarding skiers who are not completing their turns.

On the groomers you are talking about, the 90 degree quadrant simply tries to describe and acknowledge where most turns appropriate for the terrain actually start and end (assuming we define a turn start as the moment of transition when the skis go flat). There is, of course, a range for where this happens that is related to skill and intent. But generally, as the terrain gets shallower - blues and greens - many skiers will choose a more direct line that does not include finishing across the hill. In fact, I was chastised during a clinic once by our resident D-teamer Brenna Kelleher for not choosing a turn "appropriate for the changing terrain" (we were coming off a headwall and it was getting less steep). She was like - well it's great that you're continuing to make these nice complete turns in this terrain. I'll be waiting for you when you get to the bottom. LOL!! So I opened it up. Where were my skis actually going flat on the rest of that run? At about 20 degrees off being perpendicular to the fall line.

My main point is that we like to describe these idealized turns where we move through skis flat to new downhill edges while the skis point across the hill and max edge angle is at apex. But this is a very small subset of the actual turns that most skiers make - even very skilled skiers - even on groomers, let alone in trees, bumps, powder and steeps.

For Tim - maybe we can discuss more offline if you want to learn about this concept. But understanding where we truly change edge also has clear ramifications for where the "apex" really is, where max edge angle is, etc. etc.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

10-4: BTW, I have always been confused about the term "apex."

 

[François Pugh]

A couple of points to add:
Skis and bodies follow different paths.
You can release the body from the turn long before you release the skis from the turn.
Releasing the body from the turn earlier results in higher downhill speeds. |You can still let the skis hang on to their turn, which may steel some speed, but thankfully not as much. It's much fun to do, but carried too far at speed will result in a wicked face-plant.
Apex is the point of maximum curvature, which coincides with maximum turn force and maximum acceleration, and also if you are on a hard surface maximum tipping angle of the skis.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Apex and "fall line" are sometimes used interchangeably, but they don't align exactly in most turns. Apex is when the forces are the strongest, and it usually falls just after the skis have pointed down the fall line. The maximum strength of the forces will bend the skis more at apex.

I've always thought a skier's movements determine how close to the fall line the apex falls. If the skier releases the skis immediately at the fall line, then that's where the apex is going to be. Apex lines up with the fall line in very short retraction turns because of that immediate release.

Below is an idealized turn with apex at the fall line (from Rick Schnellman). This diagram shows a turn that has a top to it and a release that happens immediately at the fall line. The diagram also assumes the old turn was fully completed, meaning skis are pointing across the fall line at the start of the current turn. Most recreational skiers don't fully complete their turns, and they cut off the tops of their turns, plus they fail to release just after the fall line. So this diagram does not describe the turns we see regularly on the mountain. In those non-idealized turns, the apex will be after the fall line.