How to Determine if You Should Move Your Bindings Forward?

[cantunamunch]

But not all ski manufacturers put the mounting point in a different spot for women's skis.

A female instructor told me that best way to choose your mounting point is such that when the bindings are on the ski, you can balance the ski on one point (like on your finger). I guess you could test this with some tape to temporarily "mount" the bindings. But in that case it has nothing to do with the skier, everything to do with the ski and weight of the bindings.

I think you're right - the only thing choosing your mount point based on ski balance point makes sense for is XC skis - simply because you DO NOT want the tips to drop away from the boot and towards the snow when you kick or skate.

Generally speaking, on alpine skis neither the center of camber nor the center of sidecut nor the center of chord is anywhere near the center of balance. Alpine ski taper almost guarantees that they won't even be close.

 

[Lauren]

For example, if we keep things in the frame of reference of the skier, centrifugal force effectively flattens the slope - so the faster one turns the more the balance point shifts backwards per your diagram.

So the faster one skis...the longer the ski that is need to keep one pressuring the tip correctly...?

 

[cantunamunch]

So the faster one skis...the longer the ski that is need to keep one pressuring the tip correctly...?

Err, that wasn't where my chain of thought was going. Rather that the balance point difference would be more obvious in transition than during highly loaded turn phases, but then we make transitions across the fall line so the hill angle in your diagram is shallower. Ergo - M/F balance point differences are made worse by bad skiing.

Ski length gets messy fast. Camber guarantees that there will be some minimum tip pressure, but for flat (i.e. non-turning) skis, ski flex and snow compression are controlling factors, small differences in net moment at the binding are not.

So - my chain of thought was generally constrained to "the more tentatively one skis on steep slopes on stiff but short skis - the more the gender balance differences will be noticed."

I was going to suggest that the next diagram be of a fully rockered, infinitely stiff ski - because I think that rocker makes ski tip pressure less sensitive to balance point shifts.

 

[Monique]

So - my chain of thought was generally constrained to "the more tentatively one skis on steep slopes on stiff but short skis - the more the gender balance differences will be noticed."

Interesting, since the stereotypical female skier is skiing tentatively, on short skis. Not stereotypically on stiff skis or steep slopes, though.

Of course, longer skis, when too long, add their own troubles.

 

[Lauren]

I was going to suggest that the next diagram be of a fully rockered, infinitely stiff ski - because I think that rocker makes ski tip pressure less sensitive to balance point shifts.

Makes sense to me...with a fully rockered ski (infinitely stiff), the tip pressure would be closer to the boot than the tip (if not under the boot)...so the distance is less, or negligible), making the moment less, and therefore reducing the effect the COM has on the tip pressure (which is no longer actually at the tip).

 

[cantunamunch]

BTW, at this point in the thread I really hope someone in UT can help @AmyPJ build a line contact balance board, it would be very interesting to see where she lines up in all her various boots.

 

[AmyPJ]

BTW, at this point in the thread I really hope someone in UT can help @AmyPJ build a line contact balance board, it would be very interesting to see where she lines up in all her various boots.

So, my boot fitter uses a balancer like that when he does the boot canting and other setup stuff. I definitely don't like bindings with a steep ramp angle, for sure.

 

[Len K]

I know the campbell balancer has limitations, does anyone use this anymore?

backstory, M, 68, 5"8", 200# skiing 40+ years - every instructors (and my quads) says in the back seat, have never been able to correct this. now just want to cheat ans thinking of moving my bimdings 2 cm forward.

Len

 

[Tony S]

I don't see how moving your bindings forward is going to change your stance.

 

[ScotsSkier]

I don't see how moving your bindings forward is going to change your stance.

yup!, in fact moving them forward may even exacerbate it! From my personal experience, i used to like my skis mounted a little forward of the mark. However in the past few years as i have cleaned up my skiing technically, and also using what I have seen on the hill coaching, to develop a stronger stance and really driving the front of the ski, I have found I have been moving my mount point further back

 

[bud heishman]

Hi guys, was forwarded this topic and admittedly, have not read all prior posts so what I have to say may have already been covered.

While some focus on technique advise, and others on ski length, I believe the real issue or primary cause is equipment set up or balancing.

There are four parameters on the sagittal plane that need to be examined and optimized, especially in this situation with such a short boot sole as this magnifies the angle created between heel and toe stand height of binding. I would have to know what binding you have on your skis to know the stand height differential but most binding range between 0-8 mm. If you happen to be in a binding on the higher end of this scale and have a very short boot sole, I can promise you have too steep of a delta angle causing way too much lower leg angle. This in turn makes it very difficult if not impossible to get tip pressure at the top of the turn and causes the hips to remain aft to counter balance the effects of the steep delta angle.

The solution is to flatten this delta angle to closer to -1 to 1mm stand height difference via lifters under the toe of your boot or binding toe piece. This will lessen the angle of your lower leg and consequently tip your spine more forward. Shooting for a parallel relationship between your shins and your spine while skiing. Bob Barnes has a nice graphic on this showing three skiers from the side illustrating too little lower leg angle, too much, and just right.

There are 3 other factors which affect fore/aft balance which should also be considered including ramp or internal boot board angle and forward cuff lean. These two work hand in hand to adjust for range of dorsiflexion in the ankle and should be assessed by a pro and set for the skier's particular needs then not touched again. Where ever this leaves the lower leg angle can then be adjusted by the above method with shims or lifter plates under the boot. The fourth and LAST parameter to be considered is the binding placement on the ski and as I believe Josh elluded to will change your stance on the ski adapting it better for skiing switch to skiing groomers to skiing powder. Notice the stance of most park n pipe skiers looks aft with hands by their sides because of the center mounted bindings. Move the binding back and the stance changes with hands coming forward and body tipped a bit more forward. Now on a powder day I like to move my binding placement aft on the ski by a couple centimeters or more to allow the tips to float more and to eliminate the need to sit back. Simply moving the bindings on the ski will change the balance point on the ski and where we must stand to find balance. This, however is no substitute for addressing the first three parameters on the sagittal plane first. Get your internal boot angles set for your dorsiflexion needs, then adjust the delta angle to get your lower legs and your spine parallel and you will have found nirvana!

If you guys are the Tahoe area be sure to stop by the NEW Snowind Sports shop located at 17025 Mt. Rose Hwy. just ten minutes from the resort! We are located in the Galena Lodge and share the spot with the Galena Lodge Beer, Wine and coffee bar!

 

[bud heishman]

Oh FYI, the Campbell balancer does not take into account binding differences in stand height! This is a huge oversight....

 

[Tricia]

@Philpug and I did a clinic with Bud, using some skis he had set up differently. THAT was an eye opening experience.

 

[AmyPJ]

Hi guys, was forwarded this topic and admittedly, have not read all prior posts so what I have to say may have already been covered.

While some focus on technique advise, and others on ski length, I believe the real issue or primary cause is equipment set up or balancing.

There are four parameters on the sagittal plane that need to be examined and optimized, especially in this situation with such a short boot sole as this magnifies the angle created between heel and toe stand height of binding. I would have to know what binding you have on your skis to know the stand height differential but most binding range between 0-8 mm. If you happen to be in a binding on the higher end of this scale and have a very short boot sole, I can promise you have too steep of a delta angle causing way too much lower leg angle. This in turn makes it very difficult if not impossible to get tip pressure at the top of the turn and causes the hips to remain aft to counter balance the effects of the steep delta angle.

The solution is to flatten this delta angle to closer to -1 to 1mm stand height difference via lifters under the toe of your boot or binding toe piece. This will lessen the angle of your lower leg and consequently tip your spine more forward. Shooting for a parallel relationship between your shins and your spine while skiing. Bob Barnes has a nice graphic on this showing three skiers from the side illustrating too little lower leg angle, too much, and just right.

There are 3 other factors which affect fore/aft balance which should also be considered including ramp or internal boot board angle and forward cuff lean. These two work hand in hand to adjust for range of dorsiflexion in the ankle and should be assessed by a pro and set for the skier's particular needs then not touched again. Where ever this leaves the lower leg angle can then be adjusted by the above method with shims or lifter plates under the boot. The fourth and LAST parameter to be considered is the binding placement on the ski and as I believe Josh elluded to will change your stance on the ski adapting it better for skiing switch to skiing groomers to skiing powder. Notice the stance of most park n pipe skiers looks aft with hands by their sides because of the center mounted bindings. Move the binding back and the stance changes with hands coming forward and body tipped a bit more forward. Now on a powder day I like to move my binding placement aft on the ski by a couple centimeters or more to allow the tips to float more and to eliminate the need to sit back. Simply moving the bindings on the ski will change the balance point on the ski and where we must stand to find balance. This, however is no substitute for addressing the first three parameters on the sagittal plane first. Get your internal boot angles set for your dorsiflexion needs, then adjust the delta angle to get your lower legs and your spine parallel and you will have found nirvana!

If you guys are the Tahoe area be sure to stop by the NEW Snowind Sports shop located at 17025 Mt. Rose Hwy. just ten minutes from the resort! We are located in the Galena Lodge and share the spot with the Galena Lodge Beer, Wine and coffee bar!

Great post! Thanks, Bud. Would still love to pay a visit, but this working stuff kind of REALLY prohibits many road trips.

FWIW I have toe shims on the bindings on my daily drivers, which are Attack 11 bindings that DO have a higher heel piece. My other bindings are Attack 12s or 13s and they are fairly flat. Went to a more upright boot last season, but I'm still very in the back seat. I really have to wonder if I developed a very bad habit of skiing very defensively two years ago, and now I need to erase that habit. (Life events made me fearful of EVERYTHING.)

 

[T-Square]

... ... ... ...

If you guys are the Tahoe area be sure to stop by the NEW Snowind Sports shop located at 17025 Mt. Rose Hwy. just ten minutes from the resort! We are located in the Galena Lodge and share the spot with the Galena Lodge Beer, Wine and coffee bar!

Nice location. Now, I’d have trouble getting any work done.

 

[Eleeski]

I know this is an old thread. In two years you could either adapt your skiing style, get different boots that could change your balance, tweak things around, remount your bindings or move on to new skis which don't have the problem.

With that said, I move my bindings around in 1cm increments to find the mount spot I like best. It's often forward of stock. Sometimes by a lot (3cm!). And I am pretty average size and weight. I do prefer skis on the shorter side - maybe that makes them more sensitive to binding placement?

I try to always have demo bindings on my skis. I enjoy the dialing in of the ski so I try to feel the differences the placement makes. The process really helps me understand the ski. If I buy a new copy of a ski I've figured out, then I might buy fixed bindings. If I'm demoing skis, I'll talk to the tech and often we'll agree to go a bit forward.

My personal observations (which don't hold for all skis!) are that moving forward makes a ski turn quicker and grip better. The forward mount also makes the skis twitchier, less stable and run slower times in a race course.

As many have said, binding placement isn't everything. So once I've found a spot I like, it usually stays there. Time to work on some different item to improve my skiing.

Eric

PS @bud heishman Another incentive to get to Rose this year!

 

[Lady_Salina]

Hi guys, was forwarded this topic and admittedly, have not read all prior posts so what I have to say may have already been covered.

While some focus on technique advise, and others on ski length, I believe the real issue or primary cause is equipment set up or balancing.

There are four parameters on the sagittal plane that need to be examined and optimized, especially in this situation with such a short boot sole as this magnifies the angle created between heel and toe stand height of binding. I would have to know what binding you have on your skis to know the stand height differential but most binding range between 0-8 mm. If you happen to be in a binding on the higher end of this scale and have a very short boot sole, I can promise you have too steep of a delta angle causing way too much lower leg angle. This in turn makes it very difficult if not impossible to get tip pressure at the top of the turn and causes the hips to remain aft to counter balance the effects of the steep delta angle.

The solution is to flatten this delta angle to closer to -1 to 1mm stand height difference via lifters under the toe of your boot or binding toe piece. This will lessen the angle of your lower leg and consequently tip your spine more forward. Shooting for a parallel relationship between your shins and your spine while skiing. Bob Barnes has a nice graphic on this showing three skiers from the side illustrating too little lower leg angle, too much, and just right.

There are 3 other factors which affect fore/aft balance which should also be considered including ramp or internal boot board angle and forward cuff lean. These two work hand in hand to adjust for range of dorsiflexion in the ankle and should be assessed by a pro and set for the skier's particular needs then not touched again. Where ever this leaves the lower leg angle can then be adjusted by the above method with shims or lifter plates under the boot. The fourth and LAST parameter to be considered is the binding placement on the ski and as I believe Josh elluded to will change your stance on the ski adapting it better for skiing switch to skiing groomers to skiing powder. Notice the stance of most park n pipe skiers looks aft with hands by their sides because of the center mounted bindings. Move the binding back and the stance changes with hands coming forward and body tipped a bit more forward. Now on a powder day I like to move my binding placement aft on the ski by a couple centimeters or more to allow the tips to float more and to eliminate the need to sit back. Simply moving the bindings on the ski will change the balance point on the ski and where we must stand to find balance. This, however is no substitute for addressing the first three parameters on the sagittal plane first. Get your internal boot angles set for your dorsiflexion needs, then adjust the delta angle to get your lower legs and your spine parallel and you will have found nirvana!

If you guys are the Tahoe area be sure to stop by the NEW Snowind Sports shop located at 17025 Mt. Rose Hwy. just ten minutes from the resort! We are located in the Galena Lodge and share the spot with the Galena Lodge Beer, Wine and coffee bar!

Say I know this is an older thread, but now I want to know, are you still at that store Bud? I can't get there this season, but I would love to see the difference having a new pairs of skis set up to the above specification and then a binding mount position decided on, made to my skiing. Looking at ordering the Head Kore 93 for a main teach ski, maybe I should wait and come where you are...

 

[Henry]

In this old thread a couple of important pieces of information are missing (or I didn't bother to find).

• We need video, or maybe photos will work.
• We need to know how the person with the back seat problem is trying to get centered--what technique?
• We need to know how soon in a turn they try to get centered; the sooner the better.

One pair of skis I had just didn't engage the tips the way I thought they should. First, a good new tune after the poor factory tune was a help, but not enough. These skis had system bindings where I could move them around. Head/Tyrolia bindings have teeth on the rail that are 4 mm apart. 4 mm movement forward was nearly imperceptible. 8 mm worked well. I should have tried 12 mm but didn't.