How to Determine if You Should Move Your Bindings Forward?

[AmyPJ]

Now that I'm back on snow, with fresh legs (that are stronger than ever) and my busted knee being almost 2 years out from serious injury, I am able to hone in on some things that I STILL struggle with. Turn initiation, Especially on firmer snow. I don't know that I could get much further forward over my skis. I don't EVER feel very balanced. On hard pack/scraped off spots, the tips of my skis windshield wiper on my. It is very unsettling. I am NOT a horrible skier by any stretch. I took several lessons from a L3 last season who commented how good my stance was. It's not my stance. I'm fairly athletic, have good balance. Until I hit variable conditions on skis. Then I feel like I have to concentrate extremely hard to stay forward, and even then, the slightest jolt and I find myself out of control. I get very frustrated watching people bop down the hill standing almost perfectly upright, hardly working (it appears) and definitely not being thrown out of balance or unable to engage their tips.

I have a VERY short BSL of 22.5, especially in relation to my height (I'm 5'5".) Because I have a short BSL, the toe of my boot is obviously further back in relation to the front of the ski.

Is there a standard BSL that mount points are set for? (Say, 26.5?) If so, if my boot is that much shorter, then is it too far fetched to think that perhaps some of my turn initiation issues could be helped by moving my bindings forward a cm or so?

I'm thinking I'm going to try moving the demo bindings on my Kenjas forward. The problem is, I only think I can move them 5mm, because of my short BSL. The heel piece won't go further forward.

Anyway, for those of you who have preferred a more forward mount, what were the "symptoms" that made you think so?

 

[Tony S]

Turn initiation, Especially on firmer snow.

Just out of curiosity, because it's low-hanging fruit, are you sure you have a good tune, with no or minimal de-tuning at the tips? Tip and rip becomes tip and slip if your shovels are too dull to hook up.

 

[Tony S]

Because I have a short BSL, the toe of my boot is obviously further back in relation to the front of the ski.

Yeah, but your heels are farther forward, so I'd think it wouldn't matter. Right? (Not that moving the mount point is a bad idea; just that this particular point is one I don't follow. )

 

[AmyPJ]

Just out of curiosity, because it's low-hanging fruit, are you sure you have a good tune, with no or minimal de-tuning at the tips? Tip and rip becomes tip and slip if your shovels are too dull to hook up.

FRESH tune, very good tune from a very good shop. This is an issue I've had with most of my skis.

Even though yes, the heels are also more forward, the fact of the matter is, the toe of the boot is still pushing down further back on the ski in relation to the tip of the ski. I'm just at my wit's end.

I suppose the best way to tell (at least with the demo bindings) is to just try it. But it makes me wonder if I should move the mount point forward on my Santa Anas, which are not mounted with demo bindings.

 

[Tony S]

suppose the best way to tell (at least with the demo bindings) is to just try it.

Yup!

 

[Read Blinn]

FRESH tune, very good tune from a very good shop.

Is it a shop that doesn't automatically detune the tips and tails? Many shops do, unless it's a race-oriented shop.

 

[crgildart]

Have you tried skiing on softer skis? Perhaps it is a flex and not a mounting point matter? Of course, if you can move the mounting point without drilling.. or try some demo skis same size pushed up a cm or two you would have your answer, or at least rule out one possibility.

 

[KingGrump]

I'm fairly athletic, have good balance. Until I hit variable conditions on skis. Then I feel like I have to concentrate extremely hard to stay forward, and even then, the slightest jolt and I find myself out of control. I get very frustrated watching people bop down the hill standing almost perfectly upright, hardly working (it appears) and definitely not being thrown out of balance or unable to engage their tips.

I have a VERY short BSL of 22.5, especially in relation to my height (I'm 5'5".) Because I have a short BSL, the toe of my boot is obviously further back in relation to the front of the ski.

Sounds like you are having a fore & aft balance issue.
Since you mentioned skiers skiing while standing up right so I assume you know what up right means and what it looks like. Are you standing up right? If you are not, why not? Can you stand upright while skiing?
Not messing with you. I am serious about the standing up right issue. Probably the key to the fore and aft balance issue.

What kind of boot set up do you have? Most interested in the power/booster strap set up.
What size is the Kenja you are skiing on and which model year?

 

[razie]

It may be jumping the gun and skipping straight to a technical issue, but it really sounds like you're not angulating/counterbalancing once you put the skis on edge. Your avatar looks nicely countered, but no counterbalancing really. The issue with that is that you can finish the turn, for sure, but you lose grip earlier, at the apex, when the skis are more likely to be thrown about or loose grip - especially if you feel you need to focus on the initiation. There is a reason I prefer to call it "counterbalancing" - it really is improving lateral balance and you may find it very helpful also on those icy patches.

When you do not angulate, i.e. ski like a "tree trunk", you are in fact at the limit of the range of motion laterally, and any little thing can throw you out of balance, since you don't have room to compensate. Not to mention much reduced grip and ski bend.

How about you do a few runs where you focus on dragging the outside pole on the snow? Nice firm contact of the pole tip to the snow besides the boots, there should be some nice snow spray there. See if you feel any improved grip and/or balance. Then follow with some runs where you drag both poles, to keep your shoulders and hips level.

For fore/aft balance, how about a few runs where you undo the top buckles?

p.s. for the bindings, the middle of the ski should match the middle of the boots - that's a reasonable and easy way to tell if they're on the right spot. there should be some markings on both the skis and the boots for that.

 

[cantunamunch]

... and you can always try a smidge of toe lift under the boot.

 

[AmyPJ]

Sounds like you are having a fore & aft balance issue.
Since you mentioned skiers skiing while standing up right so I assume you know what up right means and what it looks like. Are you standing up right? If you are not, why not? Can you stand upright while skiing?
Not messing with you. I am serious about the standing up right issue. Probably the key to the fore and aft balance issue.

What kind of boot set up do you have? Most interested in the power/booster strap set up.
What size is the Kenja you are skiing on and which model year?

I mean with their upper body about perpendicular to the hill, and knees not very bent. I swear it feels like I am diving over the tips of my skis.
I have booster straps but when I use them, I am able to tighten them so much that my calves cramp. I tighten the power strap as tight as possible, I REALLY cinch it down. My Kenjas are a 163 and they are last year's.

It may be jumping the gun and skipping straight to a technical issue, but it really sounds like you're not angulating/counterbalancing once you put the skis on edge. Your avatar looks nicely countered, but no counterbalancing really. The issue with that is that you can finish the turn, for sure, but you lose grip earlier, at the apex, when the skis are more likely to be thrown about or loose grip - especially if you feel you need to focus on the initiation. There is a reason I prefer to call it "counterbalancing" - it really is improving lateral balance and you may find it very helpful also on those icy patches.

When you do not angulate, i.e. ski like a "tree trunk", you are in fact at the limit of the range of motion laterally, and any little thing can throw you out of balance, since you don't have room to compensate. Not to mention much reduced grip and ski bend.

How about you do a few runs where you focus on dragging the outside pole on the snow? Nice firm contact of the pole tip to the snow besides the boots, there should be some nice snow spray there. See if you feel any improved grip and/or balance. Then follow with some runs where you drag both poles, to keep your shoulders and hips level.

For fore/aft balance, how about a few runs where you undo the top buckles?

p.s. for the bindings, the middle of the ski should match the middle of the boots - that's a reasonable and easy way to tell if they're on the right spot. there should be some markings on both the skis and the boots for that.

I get what that pole drag drill could accomplish. You might really be on to something. I am not sure how comfortable I'd be skiing with the top buckles undone, except for on the bunny hill.

The bindings are mounted center right now. I just wasn't sure if I should move them forward a cm or so to see if it helps.

... and you can always try a smidge of toe lift under the boot.

I messed with that last year. Didn't help. I think @razie is onto something.

Thanks, guys. The good news is I can get free lessons since I now work on the hill. They will be group lessons but if I take midweek, won't be much of a group. Before the holidays is a good time to do it.

 

[Josh Matta]

with out video it really impossible to give sound advice.....

what length Kenjas? if they are not 170 or even 177 they are to short for you in variable utahn conditions.

To short of a ski in variable conditions will actually be harder to ski assuming all the other mechanics are correct. My carvers are 10+ cm shorter than anything I consider a variable snow ski. to put it in perspective I skied today on my 180cm Carbon Brahmas(actually 178cm) and my 185cm Nordica Enoforcer(actually 185cm) and the Brahma where shit tons of works to stay balanced where as the E93 I could ski with my boots unbuckled. Longer stiffer skis are easier in challenging conditions.

Also just looking at your picture you are following your skis with your hips and any upper body rotation will put you back seat even if your "stance" is supposedly good. if your picture is not relevant anymore then ignore that.

I would go so far to say that stance is irrelevant......how you move down the hill is how you gain balance. if you are constantly active transferring balance from outside foot to outside foot as well as making sure your femur rotation drive the edge into the snow instead of out of the snow you would be 95 percent there, add micro flex and extends, as well learning to double smaller piles and realizing that even great skiers will FEEL off balance but not look off balance then you d be 100 percent there.

I also want to say as well, if you are to far forward while hitting crud piles, you will actually go back further than being centered, the best way I can explain it, is in crud you drive though the boot just above your ankle, and not the top of the boot. and again if your femurs are separated from your pelvis the force of the turn brings you forward, there is no need to drive forward at all.

 

[cantunamunch]

I get what that pole drag drill could accomplish. You might really be on to something. I am not sure how comfortable I'd be skiing with the top buckles undone, except for on the bunny hill.


I messed with that last year. Didn't help. I think @razie is onto something.
.

Then moving the bindings forward a tiny amount is that much less likely to help.


Put the booster strap on under the shell when you ski with the top buckles undone. It'll give you a psychological boost as well as giving you a palpable connection to the boot spine.

And don't forget lateral bend dryland drills + long leg/short leg dryland drills.

 

[Josh Matta]

yeah you probably will not listen to me because my post does fit most people view on skiing..... but your 163cm are TOO short.

 

[RNZ]

Sounds like you are having a fore & aft balance issue.
Since you mentioned skiers skiing while standing up right so I assume you know what up right means and what it looks like. Are you standing up right? If you are not, why not? Can you stand upright while skiing?
Not messing with you. I am serious about the standing up right issue. Probably the key to the fore and aft balance issue.

What size is the Kenja you are skiing on and which model year?

I'm with King Grump - reading your post it was the first thing I thought of based on an interesting observation for me last season.

You're on the 2013 Kenja right Amy? I have not skied the Kenja but until last season I skied the 2012 Aura which has a very similar construction to the 2013 Kenja. Since I am a transient skier, sking a little here and somewhere in North America for 15-20 consecutive days in January I ski a lot of variable snow, some may say crud. My experience with the Aura's (and I suspect the Kenja's too) is that they are very sensitive / unforgiving when it comes to fore aft balance, especially in variable snow conditions. For me I found that to ski elegantly in variable snow while on the Aura's you had to very actively manage your lower body (feet, ankles, knees and hips) and maintain a really tight core to avoid being thrown off balance. I thought that this was normal and what everyone had to deal with until last year when I bought new skis that are much better at transitioning between different snow types.

The best illustration I could think of for what I am trying to say is Bob Barnes' crudology video. If you look closely at the boots and lower bodies you can see the amount of work and micro-movement that is going on to keep the overall smooth look.


So maybe the Kenja's have the same weakness as the older Aura. The good news is that getting on top of it really sorts out your awareness of fore aft balance.

 

[Mendieta]

How about you do a few runs where you focus on dragging the outside pole on the snow?

That's genius. I never saw a video of this drill, but it seems like a fantastic way to improve angulation (that I definitely need). I will try you next time. I owe you a beer or 5

 

[KingGrump]

I still feel your biggest issue at hand is your fore and aft balance. I think part of the cause is you are too forward. Sometimes I wonder why do instructors incessantly stress getting forward. Bob Barnes has quite a bit of stuff on the myth of getting forward and which way is forward on epic.

You mentioned you feel like you are diving over the tip of your skis. That is a sure sign of too forward. My gut feeling is you are leaning too hard on the front of your boot rather than standing on your feet. Probably gone a bit too far in the other direction on the pendulum swing due to the dreaded sitting back thing.

Here is a thought. Most skiers focus on getting their power from their legs to the ski via the front of the boot. If you look at the front of most 4-buckle overlap boot, you can see that it is pretty busy there. Not a good place to funnel power efficiently. In fact, if you look at this video of Jim from Start Haus modifying a boot to soften the flex. You will see the bulk of the work is done by modifying the saddle on the lower clog. The second thing he did was to modify the top of the boot to allow the booster strap to run snug up against the liner tongue and not the exterior of the shell. You don’t have to kill the booster strap, snug is usually good enough. The last thing he did was to relief the lower front of the upper cuff so the upper cuff will not bind up against the lower clog.

After viewing that video, one has to wonder how does the energy from the leg and body get transfer to the ski? It is certainly not through the front of boot. If not through the front of the boot, then where? A better question is – if not through the front then why the hell are we leaning on the front of the boot?

As cantunamunch mentioned the spline in post #13, the energy from our body actually get transferred thru the spline of the boot. With a booster straps already on your boots, you are half way there. However, it has to be used properly to facilitate the energy flow.

I also want to say as well, if you are to far forward while hitting crud piles, you will actually go back further than being centered, the best way I can explain it, is in crud you drive though the boot just above your ankle, and not the top of the boot. and again if your femurs are separated from your pelvis the force of the turn brings you forward, there is no need to drive forward at all.

Now that's money.

 

[AmyPJ]

yeah you probably will not listen to me because my post does fit most people view on skiing..... but your 163cm are TOO short.

I'm 5'5". I only weigh 120. They are PERFECT. The Kenja is a VERY stiff ski. They come to mid-forehead.

I'm with King Grump - reading your post it was the first thing I thought of based on an interesting observation for me last season.

You're on the 2013 Kenja right Amy? I have not skied the Kenja but until last season I skied the 2012 Aura which has a very similar construction to the 2013 Kenja. Since I am a transient skier, sking a little here and somewhere in North America for 15-20 consecutive days in January I ski a lot of variable snow, some may say crud. My experience with the Aura's (and I suspect the Kenja's too) is that they are very sensitive / unforgiving when it comes to fore aft balance, especially in variable snow conditions. For me I found that to ski elegantly in variable snow while on the Aura's you had to very actively manage your lower body (feet, ankles, knees and hips) and maintain a really tight core to avoid being thrown off balance. I thought that this was normal and what everyone had to deal with until last year when I bought new skis that are much better at transitioning between different snow types.

The best illustration I could think of for what I am trying to say is Bob Barnes' crudology video. If you look closely at the boots and lower bodies you can see the amount of work and micro-movement that is going on to keep the overall smooth look.


So maybe the Kenja's have the same weakness as the older Aura. The good news is that getting on top of it really sorts out your awareness of fore aft balance.

I'm on the 2016 Kenjas, with the new construction. I found them to be vastly easier for me to TURN than the Sambas I used to own, but for ME, their stiffness makes them a bit of a handful in really cut up stuff. I like my Santa Anas better there, but I don't want to get out on the wider skis until everything is really soft and I've gotten a few days on the hill.

I love that video. Oh, to make it look that easy! I'm getting WAY better.

@cantunamunch, what are dryland lateral bend drills? I'm intrigued. I think you guys are onto something here. It explains why I am making pretty nice turns on gentler terrain, but as soon as it gets steeper, I'm not angulating enough. It's an awkward movement for me. I think it's a huge missing piece. If I can fix it/learn it, I think my skiing is going to get to a whole new level.

 

[ScotsSkier]

with out video it really impossible to give sound advice.....

what length Kenjas? if they are not 170 or even 177 they are to short for you in variable utahn conditions.

To short of a ski in variable conditions will actually be harder to ski assuming all the other mechanics are correct. My carvers are 10+ cm shorter than anything I consider a variable snow ski. to put it in perspective I skied today on my 180cm Carbon Brahmas(actually 178cm) and my 185cm Nordica Enoforcer(actually 185cm) and the Brahma where shit tons of works to stay balanced where as the E93 I could ski with my boots unbuckled. Longer stiffer skis are easier in challenging conditions.

Also just looking at your picture you are following your skis with your hips and any upper body rotation will put you back seat even if your "stance" is supposedly good. if your picture is not relevant anymore then ignore that.

I would go so far to say that stance is irrelevant......how you move down the hill is how you gain balance. if you are constantly active transferring balance from outside foot to outside foot as well as making sure your femur rotation drive the edge into the snow instead of out of the snow you would be 95 percent there, add micro flex and extends, as well learning to double smaller piles and realizing that even great skiers will FEEL off balance but not look off balance then you d be 100 percent there.

I also want to say as well, if you are to far forward while hitting crud piles, you will actually go back further than being centered, the best way I can explain it, is in crud you drive though the boot just above your ankle, and not the top of the boot. and again if your femurs are separated from your pelvis the force of the turn brings you forward, there is no need to drive forward at all.

yeah you probably will not listen to me because my post does fit most people view on skiing..... but your 163cm are TOO short.

I'm with you on this Josh, i think you are pretty close on the mark.

Amy, I come at it from a slightly different focus, being more race-oriented, but looking at your avatar I would be screaming at you to get some separation so you can actually pressure the outside ski and let it work as intended. Also as per razie, I would like to see a lot more angulation, rather than banking Better separation will also help you with that.

Edit: Just saw your update. I am far from convinced that a really short, really stiff ski is doing you any favors. It may initially FEEL good, doesn't mean it is right. If it is as stiff as you say and you are not flexing it, you will not get the ski to work right,. There is a reason I steer most of my masters athletes to softer flexes. But, just MHO

 

[AmyPJ]

with out video it really impossible to give sound advice.....

what length Kenjas? if they are not 170 or even 177 they are to short for you in variable utahn conditions.

To short of a ski in variable conditions will actually be harder to ski assuming all the other mechanics are correct. My carvers are 10+ cm shorter than anything I consider a variable snow ski. to put it in perspective I skied today on my 180cm Carbon Brahmas(actually 178cm) and my 185cm Nordica Enoforcer(actually 185cm) and the Brahma where shit tons of works to stay balanced where as the E93 I could ski with my boots unbuckled. Longer stiffer skis are easier in challenging conditions.

Also just looking at your picture you are following your skis with your hips and any upper body rotation will put you back seat even if your "stance" is supposedly good. if your picture is not relevant anymore then ignore that.

I would go so far to say that stance is irrelevant......how you move down the hill is how you gain balance. if you are constantly active transferring balance from outside foot to outside foot as well as making sure your femur rotation drive the edge into the snow instead of out of the snow you would be 95 percent there, add micro flex and extends, as well learning to double smaller piles and realizing that even great skiers will FEEL off balance but not look off balance then you d be 100 percent there.

I also want to say as well, if you are to far forward while hitting crud piles, you will actually go back further than being centered, the best way I can explain it, is in crud you drive though the boot just above your ankle, and not the top of the boot. and again if your femurs are separated from your pelvis the force of the turn brings you forward, there is no need to drive forward at all.

Trying to digest all of this. The picture is pretty relevant. We're talking upper/lower body separation it sounds like, essentially.

And I promise you, the skis are not too short. Been there, done that. Also been there, done that with too long. If they weren't so stiff, I could see going up in length. My Santa Anas are 169. But I use them for much different conditions.