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How to Determine if You Should Move Your Bindings Forward?

mdf

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bending at the knees too much and not enough ankle flexion. A steep angled boot could do that,
As a side note, I have seen this pattern of too steep a boot leading to too much knee and waist flex and the bottom sticking out, Not quite a classic backseat problem, but in the same family. I don't know if that is what you are doing.

One of my Steep and Deep camps the whole group (including the instructor) went to the bootfitter one evening because two of the women students were having issues. (As I said, bootfitting is a spectator sport.) It drove me crazy that the instructor didn't really describe the problem and they were fiddling with side-to-side canting. I finally spoke up and at least got the fitter to measure her boots (eighteen degrees) but nobody took me seriously enough to do anything about it. Predictably, there was no improvment the next day. Sigh. [The other woman was helped a lot by her cant adjustment.]
 

Monique

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I <3 very upright boots. Otherwise my calves and quads kill
 
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AmyPJ

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So, the shop I ordered the B5s from are out of stock! F! Anybody have a line on a Head B5 RD Jr. Race boot in a 23.5? @Sierrajim?
 
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AmyPJ

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As a side note, I have seen this pattern of too steep a boot leading to too much knee and waist flex and the bottom sticking out, Not quite a classic backseat problem, but in the same family. I don't know if that is what you are doing.

One of my Steep and Deep camps the whole group (including the instructor) went to the bootfitter one evening because two of the women students were having issues. (As I said, bootfitting is a spectator sport.) It drove me crazy that the instructor didn't really describe the problem and they were fiddling with side-to-side canting. I finally spoke up and at least got the fitter to measure her boots (eighteen degrees) but nobody took me seriously enough to do anything about it. Predictably, there was no improvment the next day. Sigh. [The other woman was helped a lot by her cant adjustment.]

I believe that IS what I'm doing.
 
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AmyPJ

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A couple updates: I found the B5s at a shop in NY (Skiyard.com, to be exact.) They sent them to me "overnight" (thanks, holiday weekend! :() So they'll arrive Tuesday. I have an appointment with my fitter on Tuesday to get them set up and canted, etc.

And I skied my Kastle LX82s today and was kicking myself for not skiing them sooner this season. I think those skis are going to teach me a lot about turn initiation AND release. A full camber ski that is forgiving yet stable and solid at speed? Pure fun! They almost force me to be patient with my turns, maybe it's the tail?

And to further reiterate that my right boot just does NOT fit, my foot has fallen asleep in it for the past 3 days in a row. I'm back in the XMax boots because they are the best option I currently have, and they make my knees hurt. I do like that a narrower ski can be skied more easily with a looser fitting boot.
 

Jeff N

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I mean, to be fair, most people's first several pairs of boots are just total disasters. Or was that just me?

No.My wife and I finally got into boots that actually worked for us LAST YEAR. 30+ years of skiing for both of us.
 

Jeff N

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@AmyPJ- After coming across this thread (and realizing that I have some video of you skiing from 12/20 (I though the camera was off but I didn't push the button all the way), I took a look of what I could see from your skiing.

1. I can't quite tell what skis you were on that day, but I doubt they were soft snow skis- and they really look to have demo bindings.
2. The skis you were on DO seem to be mounted pretty far back. You look to have a pretty surprising amount of ski in front of you for a 163 CM ski. You look to have more ski in front of you than my wife does, and she is on skis ~10cm longer.
3. You look to ski in pretty good fore/aft balance.
4. As @razie on page 1 noticed from your profile picture, you appear to be banking into turns quite a lot.Your upper body is pretty far over even at low speed. I saw a surprising amount of banking on almost every turn.
 
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AmyPJ

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@AmyPJ- After coming across this thread (and realizing that I have some video of you skiing from 12/20 (I though the camera was off but I didn't push the button all the way), I took a look of what I could see from your skiing.

1. I can't quite tell what skis you were on that day, but I doubt they were soft snow skis- and they really look to have demo bindings.
2. The skis you were on DO seem to be mounted pretty far back. You look to have a pretty surprising amount of ski in front of you for a 163 CM ski. You look to have more ski in front of you than my wife does, and she is on skis ~10cm longer.
3. You look to ski in pretty good fore/aft balance.
4. As @razie on page 1 noticed from your profile picture, you appear to be banking into turns quite a lot.Your upper body is pretty far over even at low speed. I saw a surprising amount of banking on almost every turn.
Thanks, Jeff! I need new video. I'm skiing at a much lighter weight this year and am now in Head B5 Raptor boots, which are helping a lot but are making me readjust my fore/aft. The skis in the video are Black Pearls. I sold them. Hoping to get some video, maybe tomorrow! It's hard when I'm working. Also hoping to demo some different skis--Armada Victas and K2 Luv Sick 80s.
This is such a continual work in progress!!
 

Monique

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No.My wife and I finally got into boots that actually worked for us LAST YEAR. 30+ years of skiing for both of us.

Just acknowledging because "like" seems inappropriate ...

I have gone through the same thing with AT boots, now getting fit for my third pair. Not sure why unless it's just that my fitter was unfamiliar with AT boots, which doesn't make sense because most of his skiing is backcountry in the spring ... but I guess most of his fitting experience is for alpine. I'm with a different fitter now, which is not to disparage the first guy, but I wanted to try a different route, and bouncing between fitters is a recipe for confusion.
 

Jeff N

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Thanks, Jeff! I need new video. I'm skiing at a much lighter weight this year and am now in Head B5 Raptor boots, which are helping a lot but are making me readjust my fore/aft. The skis in the video are Black Pearls. I sold them. Hoping to get some video, maybe tomorrow! It's hard when I'm working. Also hoping to demo some different skis--Armada Victas and K2 Luv Sick 80s.
This is such a continual work in progress!!

Wow, you may be more gear crazy than Anne and I. :)

I would recommend trying to keep your upper body from banking in to the turns, doing nothing else, this should help your skiing and balance, and compared to a lot of things, is a pretty easy adjustment to make. I recommend people visualize placing their upper body over their outside ski in a turn. Do that, and you won't find yourself leaning in. You'll also find a lot more edge hold...
 
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AmyPJ

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Wow, you may be more gear crazy than Anne and I. :)

I would recommend trying to keep your upper body from banking in to the turns, doing nothing else, this should help your skiing and balance, and compared to a lot of things, is a pretty easy adjustment to make. I recommend people visualize placing their upper body over their outside ski in a turn. Do that, and you won't find yourself leaning in. You'll also find a lot more edge hold...
I have this on the list, plus opening the inside knee more, plus closing the ankles. I will say, it's all gotten a lot easier with the new boots. I'm pretty happy with them. We are having hero, I mean HERO groomer skiing right now, so it's a great time to work on things.

Interestingly, (and anyone who is still following this thread I think will find this interesting also) I got a fresh tune on the Kastles from a guy who has been the shop manager at the local shop for hmmmm 16 years now, who is rather legendary for how well he tunes skis. Well, he gave mine a little extra TLC and holy WOW! I could immediately tell the difference. And this was after they had a tune last season by someone else, and I'd barely skied them. He took one look at them last week and grabbed them from me and said, "these need a tune." So, with that all being said, my sensations of feeling aft and not being able to cleanly initiate turns were greatly reduced. Hmmmm...(I'm taking the Santa Anas to him tomorrow.)

Between that and the snow being extremely fast right now, they felt like rockets beneath me and a couple times, I had to stop and almost let my brain catch up LOL!
 

LiquidFeet

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I'd still like to hear from knowledgeable people about the need to sometimes move the bindings forward for particular women
whose anatomy has the majority of their weight in their hips and thighs (which are positioned behind their feet for most of each turn)
instead of in their shoudlers and upper chest (which are positioned in front of their feet for most of each turn).

Example: for narrow/slight-shouldered women with thick thighs and hips .... should the bindings be moved forward of the line,
which is probably set with your "average" man who has heavy/wide shoulders and narrow hips/thighs?

Anyone have experience with moving bindings for this reason?

Anyone?
 

Monique

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I'd still like to hear from knowledgeable people about the need to sometimes move the bindings forward for particular women
whose anatomy has the majority of their weight in their hips and thighs (which are positioned behind their feet for most of each turn)
instead of in their shoudlers and upper chest (which are positioned in front of their feet for most of each turn).

Example: for narrow/slight-shouldered women with thick thighs and hips .... should the bindings be moved forward of the line,
which is probably set with your "average" man who has heavy/wide shoulders and narrow hips/thighs?

Anyone have experience with moving bindings for this reason?

Anyone?

I'm not knowledgeable, but I fit the description and have never thought I "needed" a different mount point. Maybe I will try it some day and experience a revelation, but when I had to have a binding mounted slightly forward of recommended on the Santa Ana, it did not feel like an ahah moment. Granted they say that one is already mounted forward quite a bit.

I've skied men's and women's skis, so likely the recommended mount point was forward on the women's skis, and I just have never noticed an impact, so maybe there are some people who just aren't that sensitive to mount points?
 

cantunamunch

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Example: for narrow/slight-shouldered women with thick thighs and hips .... should the bindings be moved forward of the line,
which is probably set with your "average" man who has heavy/wide shoulders and narrow hips/thighs?

Anyone have experience with moving bindings for this reason?

Anyone?


This is the sort of thing a Campbell balancer type arrangement would be ideal for.
http://www.epicski.com/a/positioning-ski-bindings-using-the-campbell-balancer

It doesn't take much to make one.

That said, I expect it would only be necessary on shorter and stiffer skis.
 
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Lauren

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I'd still like to hear from knowledgeable people about the need to sometimes move the bindings forward for particular women
whose anatomy has the majority of their weight in their hips and thighs (which are positioned behind their feet for most of each turn)
instead of in their shoudlers and upper chest (which are positioned in front of their feet for most of each turn).

Well...here's the physics answer behind it...
These calculations are based on assuming that man and woman are on the same ski, that requires the same force to drive the tip, man and woman are the same weight, and on the same slope. Also using the assumption that the distance from the ground to the woman's center of mass is equal to 80% of the man's center of mass height (as if the woman's COM is in the hips, and the man's in the shoulders).

Summarizing the calculations, both skiers create a moment on the ski where their foot connects, the man's moment is greater than the woman's because their center of gravity is further away (Moment = Force x distance). This moment translates to the force required at the tip of the ski to control the ski. Once again, the M = F x D. So if the woman's moment is smaller (due to the lower COM), the distance to the tip of the ski also needs to be adjusted in order to create the same force on the tip of the ski.

Calculations:
IMG_4635.JPG
 

LiquidFeet

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Well...here's the physics answer behind it....
......
......

So if the woman's moment is smaller (due to the lower COM), the distance to the tip of the ski also needs to be adjusted in order to create the same force on the tip of the ski.

Calculations:
View attachment 18575

Thank you! That's just what I've been wanting to read about. The calculations attachment offers an image that makes sense to me. Thank you again.

With that in mind, does that last part in red above indicate that despite the manufacturer's efforts to consider both men and women when they indicate where to mount the bindings, those bindings still need to go farther forward for women, in general, for them to be able to apply the same amount of tip pressure? I think the answer is yes, but I just want to double-check.
 

Lauren

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With that in mind, does that last part in red above indicate that despite the manufacturer's efforts to consider both men and women when they indicate where to mount the bindings, those bindings still need to go farther forward for women, in general, for them to be able to apply the same amount of tip pressure? I think the answer is yes, but I just want to double-check.

In general, yes, a female will need to mount the same ski a bit farther forward than a man would.

This is why when you ask many manufacturers "what's the difference between the men's and the women's ski?", they will say "the top sheet and the mounting point are different". Their ski design departments must have data points that they use of a "typical" male and a "typical" female (or possibly have a range of heights and weights) and certain data about the balance point of the ski, the ideal pressure on the tip (also ideal pressure on the tail...which is a similar calculation in theory). They would then use those "typical" points to calculate the "ideal" mounting point. At least that's how I think about it...not 100% sure if it's that much based on numbers, or if I overthink things like this.

This is also the reason when people say "a ski doesn't know how tall you are"...its simply not true. Well..it's true on flat ground, but add any slope and the ski may not know how tall you are, but it knows where your COM is.
 

Monique

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But not all ski manufacturers put the mounting point in a different spot for women's skis.

A female instructor told me that best way to choose your mounting point is such that when the bindings are on the ski, you can balance the ski on one point (like on your finger). I guess you could test this with some tape to temporarily "mount" the bindings. But in that case it has nothing to do with the skier, everything to do with the ski and weight of the bindings. :huh:
 

Monique

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Although now I'm trying to remember if she could possibly have been demonstrating something other than mount point. I can't think of what else it could have been, though.
 

cantunamunch

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[

In general, yes, a female will need to mount the same ski a bit farther forward than a man would.

This is why when you ask many manufacturers "what's the difference between the men's and the women's ski?", they will say "the top sheet and the mounting point are different". Their ski design departments must have data points that they use of a "typical" male and a "typical" female (or possibly have a range of heights and weights) and certain data about the balance point of the ski, the ideal pressure on the tip (also ideal pressure on the tail...which is a similar calculation in theory). They would then use those "typical" points to calculate the "ideal" mounting point. At least that's how I think about it...not 100% sure if it's that much based on numbers, or if I overthink things like this..

Overthink? No such thing. Let's keep this going. For example, if we keep things in the frame of reference of the skier, centrifugal force effectively flattens the slope - so the faster one turns the more the balance point shifts backwards per your diagram.

We can also do a limited bending/flex computation by selecting two or three hinge points as an approximation, and working out the leaf spring mechanism to show us how much tip pressure is guaranteed by camber and how much tip pressure disappears as the ski flexes. (this relates to my earlier comment - short and stiff skis make the M/F differences worse)
 
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