Focuses/takeaways from training in New Zealand

[LiquidFeet]

....Why do you think these skiers stand this way when they are not actively skiing, maintaining some tension/flexion in their ankles? This does not come naturally; they had to train themselves to do this.

I meant the above as a rhetorical question. But that's OK.
The skiers in those images have no reason to not stand like that. It's their home base. That's what Ron Kipp is talking about in that video.
In those images I posted, muscle memory is firmly expressing the tension Kipp is promoting.
The sensation of standing this way, and of skiing this way, is one of the things I miss the most when ski season ends.

 

[mdf]

But..... and I am aware of the irony of me saying this... it may no longer be appropriate with modern, more upright boots.

 

[Skisailor]

I think it is because they have, or once had when their habits were being set, a boot with so much forward lean that leaning on the cuffs was easier than standing up straighter. I remember once when I tried a boot with a lot of forward lean, skiing was fine but standing in the lift line was torture.

Exactly. You also see that thing they do where they have to lean on their poles with the grips in their armpits. They are giving their otherwise burning quads a break.

Regardless - a shin angle like that, no matter what you think is responsible for it - might be great for racing but is pretty much a disaster for recreational skiers. Why?

Because they will likely never match their angles and will naturally ski with a more vertical/upright spine angle. So it's almost a forefone conclusion that they will be in the backseat with burining quads.

Then - because their legs get tired, they tend to lean on the cuff which results in a static ankle. So in order to flex, they have only knee and hip left. And every knee bend puts them in the backseat and stresses the knees and quads even more.

 

[François Pugh]

Let's not tar all recreational skiers with the same brush.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Exactly. You also see that thing they do where they have to lean on their poles with the grips in their armpits. They are giving their otherwise burning quads a break....
Regardless - a shin angle like that, no matter what you think is responsible for it - might be great for racing but is pretty much a disaster for recreational skiers. Why? ...
Because they will likely never match their angles and will naturally ski with a more vertical/upright spine angle. So it's almost a forefone conclusion that they will be in the backseat with burining quads....
Then - because their legs get tired, they tend to lean on the cuff which results in a static ankle. So in order to flex, they have only knee and hip left. And every knee bend puts them in the backseat and stresses the knees and quads even more.

...ummm... no.
Just because you don't ski the way some other people ski doesn't mean they have burning quads. You said that three times up there. And you even used the word "disaster." Wow. You must be pretty upset to speculate this aggressively in your response. How come?

 

[Skisailor]

Let's not tar all recreational skiers with the same brush.

Yes. My apologies! Writing in haste without the proper caveats.

In my experience, recreational skiers not involved in amateur racing or otherwise interested in racing technique have major problems - yes, disaster in terms of blocking further development - when they come to me with a very aggressive shin angle, whatever the cause. It invariably creates extra hurdles in sorting out their fore-aft balance and in almost every case, includes significant problems with leg fatigue.

 

[markojp]

Boots don't control shin angle. Muscles do... the Tibialis Anterior, to be specific.
View attachment 53640

From the photo, we don't know much about the skiers boot set up, buckle tension, calf size, tib fib length relative to cuff, etc... To address skisailor's rhetorical points above, I can lean into my boot tongues, fold at the waist, and stick my poles into my armpits to relax my quads, feet, core, or whatever, but I don't ski that way. (Back to your photo LF, when I see someone's knees hanging that far out over their toes, I want to know more to figure out if the boot is just buckled loosely, or if something's just out of wack... but only if I'm being paid to do so.)

 

[markojp]

Yes. My apologies! Writing in haste without the proper caveats.

In my experience, recreational skiers not involved in amateur racing or otherwise interested in racing technique have major problems - yes, disaster in terms of blocking further development - when they come to me with a very aggressive shin angle, whatever the cause. It invariably creates extra hurdles in sorting out their fore-aft balance and in almost every case, includes significant problems with leg fatigue.

Very aggressive shin angles in my experience both coaching and fitting is largely a product of poor boot fitting/boot set up. Poor fore aft alignment is all too common in both rec skiing and amateur racing.

 

[markojp]

Exactly. You also see that thing they do where they have to lean on their poles with the grips in their armpits. They are giving their otherwise burning quads a break.

Regardless - a shin angle like that, no matter what you think is responsible for it - might be great for racing but is pretty much a disaster for recreational skiers. Why?

Because they will likely never match their angles and will naturally ski with a more vertical/upright spine angle. So it's almost a forefone conclusion that they will be in the backseat with burining quads.

Then - because their legs get tired, they tend to lean on the cuff which results in a static ankle. So in order to flex, they have only knee and hip left. And every knee bend puts them in the backseat and stresses the knees and quads even more.

Page 6- itis.... There's just so much rhetorical misinformation here, it's hard to know where and if to start.

 

[markojp]

FWIW, it seems binary battlelines have been drawn. Dorsiflection isn't about crushing the boot cuff. It's only to maintain cuff contact using functional tension. Of course the degree of tension can be dialed up and down as needed. If we aren't using functional muscular tension when skiing, I have no idea how anyone stands up.

 

[Steve]

FWIW, it seems binary battlelines have been drawn. Dorsiflection isn't about crushing the boot cuff. It's only to maintain cuff contact using functional tension. Of course the degree of tension can be dialed up and down as needed. If we aren't using functional muscular tension when skiing, I have no idea how anyone stands up.

This is exactly my point, thank you. Common ground. It's a matter of degree.

 

[LiquidFeet]

This is Mikaela, just standing around, by the way.
I suspect her alignment is pretty well tweaked.
Of course recreational skiers don't need to be doing
this kind of extreme forward flex inside their boot cuffs.
I used this image as an example of how the boot's
forward lean does not totally control lower leg tilt.
That's all.

 

[Skisailor]

FWIW, it seems binary battlelines have been drawn. Dorsiflection isn't about crushing the boot cuff. It's only to maintain cuff contact using functional tension. Of course the degree of tension can be dialed up and down as needed. If we aren't using functional muscular tension when skiing, I have no idea how anyone stands up.

Interesting. As implied in an earlier post of mine, I think of functional tension as some degree of tension beyond the subconscious tension we use to stand and balance and walk, etc.

We don't fall down like human slinkies as a result of not consciously enforcing functional tension - that ready ALMOST about to move state.

So it's a tweener for me. Between relaxed and actually tensing my muscles.

I DO apply a functional tension in my core when skiing crud. Not tense muscles. But a state that's different - ramped up just a bit - from the more relaxed core I have in everyday living and much of my skiing.

So again - a matter of degree. And also - it's nice to clarify terms so we know what other posters really have in mind during a discussion.

 

[BGreen]

This is Mikaela

Mikaela who?

 

[JESinstr]

Interesting. As implied in an earlier post of mine, I think of functional tension as some degree of tension beyond the subconscious tension we use to stand and balance and walk, etc.

We don't fall down like human slinkies as a result of not consciously enforcing functional tension - that ready ALMOST about to move state.

So it's a tweener for me. Between relaxed and actually tensing my muscles.

I DO apply a functional tension in my core when skiing crud. Not tense muscles. But a state that's different - ramped up just a bit - from the more relaxed core I have in everyday living and much of my skiing.

So again - a matter of degree. And also - it's nice to clarify terms so we know what other posters really have in mind during a discussion.

SkiSailor, The above makes all the sense in the world, except for one huge oversight. Skiing is conducted on a slippery, non friction surface (let alone tilted) which is unlike the everyday environment in which you stand, balance and walk. The surface from which you derive friction/tension, be it conscious or sub-conscious, is gone.

So the body needs to find another methodology to establish dynamic balance capability and address this lack of friction based contact with the ground. I will submit that as one learns and adopts a new way to balance on a moving platform, some of the conscious will become sub-conscious over time.

In the meantime, here are some folks who have yet to adopt that methodology

 

[Fishbowl]

Several times in the thread there have been references to “Recreational skiing tecnique” and “Racing skiing technique” as separate teachable entities?

Just asking for a friend.

 

[LiquidFeet]

...Just asking for a friend.

I think of recreational skiers as 6-to-14 days-a-season skiers who may or may not get instruction from one source or another.
I think of racers as 60-140+ days-a-season skiers who get professional coaching weekly if not daily.
There are inherent differences between these two groups - in intent, and in time available to learn effective technique and to build that into muscle memory.

But that doesn't mean recreational skiers shouldn't be given instruction based on the same information as racers.
They should. That instruction just needs to be delivered in manageable chunks that they can absorb and put to use given their limited time and different overall intent.

 

[markojp]

Several times in the thread there have been references to “Recreational skiing tecnique” and “Racing skiing technique” as separate teachable entities?

Just asking for a friend.

DIRT is different, task is modified in each discipline(desired outcome) but skiing is skiing

 

[Uke]

Personally, skiing is skiing, Changing intent and intensity does not change how the ski works although it can have a profound effect on the DIRT of the situation. There are a few basics that underlie all skiing and those are what should be taught to all skiers to do with as they please.

uke

 

[BGreen]

Several times in the thread there have been references to “Recreational skiing tecnique” and “Racing skiing technique” as separate teachable entities?

Just asking for a friend.

Racing is about speed and efficiency. Small changes, like getting off the ski early to extend the time in the fall line (watch Esther Ledecka on a snowboard), can reap huge dividends. Recreational skiing is about enjoyment, everything else is secondary. In racing, if you can change a technical element that allows you to modify your line in a way that you are consistently a two seconds faster top to bottom, that is huge. In recreational skiing if your buddy gets down the mountain two seconds faster, does anyone care?

This isn’t to say that recreational skiers can’t or don’t care about technique, just that their career doesn’t hinge on their ability to do so. The video posted in this thread show great recreational technique, but it wouldn’t hold up in competition because it the pressure distribution of the arc applies a breaking force low in the turn. In recreational skiing, this develops huge g-forces, shoots you across the hill, and is great fun. In course, it may be a tool to have in your bag for certain situations, but not every turn. In recreational skiing, this is an effective way to manage your speed. In a course, line and timing are better ways to do it.

Next, let’s say the average recreational skier skis 30 days a year (no data, just making this up). The average U16 racer will have 30 days on snow before Dec. 15, with nearly 100% of that time doing drills. By the end of that period any equipment or alignment issues are worked out so nothing in their equipment is getting in the way of their skiing, and there is also a Physio looking at video with the coaches to see if there are any muscle imbalances or physical problems creating skiing/technique problems (e.g. the right hip flexor is tight/weak causing the left shoulder to hunch in resulting in increased inclination/banking and decreased angulation and hip mobility on right footed turns). This is not something that is available or enjoyable to the average recreational skier. Instead, a recreational skier might choose to spend 25% of their time (say four or five runs every ski day) working on developing a technique that allows them to ski with confidence, power, efficiency and precision in their chosen terrain.

As an aside, it’s important to separate alpine ski racers (aka gate bashers) from freestyle or all-mountain competition skiers. When you see them on the hill early season, they are all working hard, but at very different things. A pure alpine racing technique won’t win a moguls competition.

Go back and read @mike_m ’s OP. That was a great post and as they say, all the rest is commentary.