Focuses/takeaways from training in New Zealand

[JESinstr]

I have to admit - my experience is more that of @Steve 's. And I admit a bias because learning rotation - not just ski twisting - but proper, nuanced, expert leg rotation and skill blending is the key that unlocked the door of big mountain skiing for me.

SkiSailor et al
The discussion regarding rotation has been an excellent one. I don't mean to hijack this thread any further so I will use a JF Video which adds relevance .

Go to the below video and watch from 3:25 to 4:55. IMO ask a bunch of instructors and or "advanced" skiers to do what JF is doing and you will probably get a high rate of failure. If instructors don't understand proper rotary as it relates to a ski turn how are we to teach it to our students? This can be done and it can be done the first time we teach someone to move forward and form a wedge.

 

[Skisailor]

Skisailor and Steve:

Yep, I keep the ankles closed at all times. This focus was introduced to me by JF, then Jonathan, then Reilly. If you watch Reilly's video, I think you'll agree he has some of the most supple ankles imaginable! I think you'll find that you can still "stroke the ski" (from tip to middle to tail) using closed ankles. On all turns, one can still tip the boots and center of mass forward and back as needed (to ski bumps, for instance). One can easily roll forward toward the balls of the feet at initiation, then to the center, then back toward the heels (not too much!) very effectively. Again, something to try for yourselves. Many superb skiers do not do this. Like all focuses, this is something you can experiment with and see if it clicks for you.

Best!
Mike

Ok. So maybe some of this is just confusion over langauge.

How do you define "Closed ankle" and
"dorsiflexed ankle"?

Thanks.

 

[Skisailor]

SkiSailor et al
The discussion regarding rotation has been an excellent one. I don't mean to hijack this thread any further so I will use a JF Video which adds relevance .

Go to the below video and watch from 3:25 to 4:55. IMO ask a bunch of instructors and or "advanced" skiers to do what JF is doing and you will probably get a high rate of failure. If instructors don't understand proper rotary as it relates to a ski turn how are we to teach it to our students? This can be done and it can be done the first time we teach someone to move forward and form a wedge.

I'll take a look.

 

[geepers]

Use the whole of the outside ski through the turn: Engage "binding to tip" to start; "toepiece to heelpiece" in the fall line; "binding to tail" to end.

Skisailor and Steve:

Yep, I keep the ankles closed at all times. This focus was introduced to me by JF, then Jonathan, then Reilly. If you watch Reilly's video, I think you'll agree he has some of the most supple ankles imaginable! I think you'll find that you can still "stroke the ski" (from tip to middle to tail) using closed ankles. On all turns, one can still tip the boots and center of mass forward and back as needed (to ski bumps, for instance). One can easily roll forward toward the balls of the feet at initiation, then to the center, then back toward the heels (not too much!) very effectively. Again, something to try for yourselves. Many superb skiers do not do this. Like all focuses, this is something you can experiment with and see if it clicks for you.

Best!
Mike

Mike, Thanks for the long OP. Can't say I've had the opportunity to absorb most of it but I went out today with focus on that top quote. With special emphasis on "binding to tail" at end of turn. Our recent warm weather having been replaced by classic Oz melt/freeze this morning's ice was a great time to experiment (and not much else has worked that well to date...)

That bit works for me!

So much so that I spent the day seeking out the worst icy pitches to be found. And the scrapped, shiny bits when the sun brought the inevitable thaw. That is so far from my SOP (coffee until 10, avoid the ice like the plague) but it's so nice when the skis stay hooked up. Clearly I've been skiing too far forward below the fall.

Unfortunately this is my last day for the Oz season so further experimenting will have to wait. 4 months to digest the rest of your OP.

 

[mike_m]

Geepers: Glad you enjoyed that feeling. It gives a nice sense of the whole ski working for you, doesn't it?

Skisailor, et al: There's a similar examination of the closed/dorsiflexed ankle (yes, I use the terms interchangably; I think of it as the same) going on in the Jonathan Ballou video thread. If I may, let me paste in a reply I made there to a similar question:

"Indeed, I have found that 90 percent of lessons that fail are the result of miscommunication. The student thinks he/she is understanding what the coach is asking for, thinks it's being done, but because the coach didn't communicate clearly what was desired, and the student misinterprets, the result isn't good, and both end up frustrated! If I may, let me go back to my original post in the New Zealand focuses thread:

Make the transition with lifted, flexed feet (or, just try relaxing/tipping the old outside foot; see what works best for you). Before starting downhill, immediately reverse angulation (tip the feet, point the boots and knees downhill; reverse the angulation of the hip).

· Simultaneously, and before the skis start downhill, create a new platform early using subtle ankle movements. Move with the skis and allow them to travel for a time in the direction they were pointed at transition, then roll over and press the inside edge of the new outside ski into the snow and immediately engage it.

· As the skis start downhill, immediately focus on the inside half of the body. Start by sliding the new inside foot back (you can add a lift of the inside tail to help tip you forward). This inside-foot slide back continues up the body into lifting the inside thigh/hip and the entire inside half of the body pulling diagonally ahead (the outside half of the body is down and back; the outside pole tip can even glide along the snow toward the back of the outside binding to ensure functional angulation)."

The transition occurs first, then, only after the skis start downhill, does the feet-back/hips forward movement take place. The toes and front of the feet (all the way to the balls of the feet) are dorsiflexed to engage the ligaments in the front of the shin and pull you forward toward the tips of the skis and commit you downhill. Does that help clarify/make some sense?

Best!
Mike

 

[HardDaysNight]

“This is an interesting post and we might not be as disparate in views as it seems. My posts have been referring to that part of the turn where forces are at their peak-approximately the middle third of the turn from just before to just after the apex (or gate if you like). Alignment here refers to the stacking of the torso and hips over the BOS so that the skeleton supports as much of the load as possible. It is also here that I contend that the ankle is closed and that the force vector runs up the tibial axis and the focus of pressure in the foot is where the tibia intersects with the foot, just forward of the heel and, incidentally, at the apex of the arch, the anatomically strongest sector of the foot.

But there are other phases of the turn too. Consider what happens as the skier begins to release the turn after the pressure or impulse phase. The skis carve up under the body and begin to move out to the new side. What will become the new outside leg begins to extend - it has too because of the geometry of the situation - and the ankle opens, plantarflexes, obviously within the constraints of the ski boot. The balance point within the foot is now BOF, but there is very little pressure to resist at this point. The end of one turn is the beginning of the next, you can’t finish a turn in a different state of balance from that in which the new turn is to begin and still link turns smoothly. The COM moves more directly downhill as the skis take a longer path, the ankle closes and sets up the alignment described in the first paragraph in preparation for the next pressure phase.”

Above is a quote of one of my replies to Doby Man in another thread. I’m sticking to it and note that detailed underfoot pressure measurements performed on WC tech skiers confirm my view in every particular.

Really great thread. Thanks mike m

 

[Skisailor]

“This is an interesting post and we might not be as disparate in views as it seems. My posts have been referring to that part of the turn where forces are at their peak-approximately the middle third of the turn from just before to just after the apex (or gate if you like). Alignment here refers to the stacking of the torso and hips over the BOS so that the skeleton supports as much of the load as possible. It is also here that I contend that the ankle is closed and that the force vector runs up the tibial axis and the focus of pressure in the foot is where the tibia intersects with the foot, just forward of the heel and, incidentally, at the apex of the arch, the anatomically strongest sector of the foot.

But there are other phases of the turn too. Consider what happens as the skier begins to release the turn after the pressure or impulse phase. The skis carve up under the body and begin to move out to the new side. What will become the new outside leg begins to extend - it has too because of the geometry of the situation - and the ankle opens, plantarflexes, obviously within the constraints of the ski boot. The balance point within the foot is now BOF, but there is very little pressure to resist at this point. The end of one turn is the beginning of the next, you can’t finish a turn in a different state of balance from that in which the new turn is to begin and still link turns smoothly. The COM moves more directly downhill as the skis take a longer path, the ankle closes and sets up the alignment described in the first paragraph in preparation for the next pressure phase.”

Above is a quote of one of my replies to Doby Man in another thread. I’m sticking to it and note that detailed underfoot pressure measurements performed on WC tech skiers confirm my view in every particular.

Really great thread. Thanks mike m

Thanks so much for describing how the ankle plantar flexes in part of the turn. That makes a ton of sense to me.

I was puzzled over the "constantly closed" ankle language.

Of course - I have a particular understanding of what "closed" means in this context so I've been trying to clarify how others define that as well.

 

[Doby Man]

But there are other phases of the turn too. Consider what happens as the skier begins to release the turn after the pressure or impulse phase. The skis carve up under the body and begin to move out to the new side. What will become the new outside leg begins to extend - it has too because of the geometry of the situation - and the ankle opens, plantarflexes, obviously within the constraints of the ski boot. The balance point within the foot is now BOF, but there is very little pressure to resist at this point. The end of one turn is the beginning of the next, you can’t finish a turn in a different state of balance from that in which the new turn is to begin and still link turns smoothly. The COM moves more directly downhill as the skis take a longer path, the ankle closes and sets up the alignment described in the first paragraph in preparation for the next pressure phase.”

Well stated!

@Skisailor:

Re: Constant dorsiflexion: Technically, it could be said that we ski in a constant state of dorsiflexion, that of which is reduced with a bit of plantar flexion at or around turn initiation. While a retraction turn must maintain a certain amount of flexion (including lots of dorsiflexion) throughout the entire turn, we do need to extend (including plantar flexion) if the BoS is going to take the longer, rounder path than the CoM. I also believe that good skiers maintain a constant tension through the ankle and foot but a dynamic tension (not static) that morphs through the turn. We want an actively flexing, “live”, ankle in both fore/aft and lateral planes of movement. Modern boots and skis puts people’s feet to sleep, an atrophy that shows its ugly face further up the chain. We want to be able to leverage the feet “inside” and “against” the boot in order to use the boot to leverage the BoS with more quickness and powerunder the CoM. The ankle is the joint we want to max out first when we are working to get and keep low through transition. As a matter of fact, a skier’s maximum ankle dorsiflexion is typically the governing amount of flexion that we can get out of our entire chain as we see what happens to overcompensation in our “flexion complex” (ankle/knee/hip), a term @Jesintsr so eloquently coins.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Now - I understand that there will be at least some, albeit a much smaller, range of ankle motion possible while still being "dorsiflexed". But combining this constant dorsiflexion idea with the many statements I've read here regarding pulling up the toes and activating the anterior tibialis to produce a constant state of tension does NOT. IMO result in active, supple ankles.

@Skisailor, I too find the idea of keeping ankles dorsiflexed using a constant state of muscular "tension" (what I do and find beneficial) difficult to reconcile with "supple" ankles. The two seem mutually contradictory. Here's another notable skier who promotes a constant state of dorsiflexion, maintained with muscular tension that doesn't let up. I don't think it's been posted in this thread yet.

 

[Skisailor]

I've seen that one and used a quote from him! Yeah - not so sure about the constant tension thing. Maybe in the racing world . . .

Meant to add, Ursula has been working with me on completely loose flexible ankles as shock absorbers in crud and it's amazing how well that works.

So I can see the utility of that kind of tension in some circumstances but definitely not as an overarching rule.

 

[Steve]

but definitely not as an overarching rule.

I see what you did there.

 

[Steve]

Yeah - not so sure about the constant tension thing. Maybe in the racing world . . .

Meant to add, Ursula has been working with me on completely loose flexible ankles as shock absorbers in crud and it's amazing how well that works.

So I can see the utility of that kind of tension in some circumstances but definitely not as an overarching rule.

This is such an interesting dichotomy. It reminds me of the recurring suggestion to keep your abs "tight" or "activated."

I've never really done this, never was sure if I should or not. I try from time to time, but haven't been convinced of the value of it.

Tense, or activated abs. Tense, or activated ankles.

In my yoga for the last week or so I've been playing with that functional tension in the feet. Getting the feeling of both raising the toes and still keeping ball-of-foot contact with the ground. For example the Chair Pose.

This position has a definite skiing relationship. Flexed knees and ankles. I focus on spreading and lifting my toes without losing my balance on both the balls of my feet and the front of my heels.

I do believe that the more I do this, the less it will actually be "tension" and become more relaxed functional tension. Is that what those of you who keep your abs feel?

Is this completely contrary to what Ursula says, or is there a way to do both at once?

 

[LiquidFeet]

This is such an interesting dichotomy. ....
Is this completely contrary to what Ursula says, or is there a way to do both at once?

@Steve, I think the two are completely at odds with each other, at least as far as the ankles go. @Skisailor trains with Ursula at Big Sky. Ursula promotes opening and closing all three joints together, ankles, knees, hips, like an accordion. She is a very strong skier and trainer. Ron Kipp and the Rookie Academy folks are saying keep the ankles more stable in a closed position with muscle tension; no accordion-like opening and closing. I can't see how these two descriptions can be for the same thing.

I've read Skisailer's posts for some time now explaining this and hopefully have understood it correctly. The two ways of dealing with ankles sure seem incompatible. On the basis of who promotes these two, I've come to the conclusion that both work. I've made my choice on eastern slopes where the snow is hard most of the time (ankle flexion/tension works for me).

Reasons why both might be good depending on who is skiing and in what situations they are skiing:
--gear differences (boots, skis, ramp, flex, width, etc.)
--anatomical and fitness differences (feet, legs, upper body shape, number of ski days per season.)
--terrain and conditions differences (groomers, wide open bowls, steep chutes, tight trees, etc.)
--intent differences (desire for speed, level of caution, embedded models of what good skiers do)

 

[Steve]

@LiquidFeet I see your perspective, but am still not convinced that they are opposing concepts.

Keeping tension in the ankles is not mutually exclusive to opening and closing them.

It does seem opposite to soft, loose ankles, but I definitely can see the accordion-like (I prefer the term articulation as an accordion is only a single in/out) opening and closing while keeping functional tension.

A couple of months from now we can start to play with this!

 

[Steve]

After all, people keep their abs "tight" while doing crunches, right?

 

[Steve]

I watched the video again. Shuffling throughout the turn results in opening and closing the ankle.

I think the primary disconnect is in supple ankles vs. tensed ankles. I don't however think that tensed ankles are limited in open/close motion.

I'd love to hear @mike_m respond to this issue. Mike?

 

[Steve]

From the PSIA Alpine Technical Manual. page 66

"Competent skiers maintain a functional degree of tension to some degree at all times in order to stimulate (or innervate) the muscle groups required for management of, and reaction to, forces. This functional tension allows a skier to react more quickly, adapting to ever-changing speeds, terrain, and snow conditions."

 

[Skisailor]

This is such an interesting dichotomy. It reminds me of the recurring suggestion to keep your abs "tight" or "activated."

I've never really done this, never was sure if I should or not. I try from time to time, but haven't been convinced of the value of it.

Tense, or activated abs. Tense, or activated ankles.

In my yoga for the last week or so I've been playing with that functional tension in the feet. Getting the feeling of both raising the toes and still keeping ball-of-foot contact with the ground. For example the Chair Pose.

View attachment 53578
This position has a definite skiing relationship. Flexed knees and ankles. I focus on spreading and lifting my toes without losing my balance on both the balls of my feet and the front of my heels.

I do believe that the more I do this, the less it will actually be "tension" and become more relaxed functional tension. Is that what those of you who keep your abs feel?

Is this completely contrary to what Ursula says, or is there a way to do both at once?

I'll post more in a little while. The only functional tension I've ever heard Ursula make a point of advocating is the in abs when skiing crud. I don't think she would like the idea of tension held in the feet in any way - but I'm going to ask her and get back to you.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I just re-watched that lengthy Ron Kipp video linked upthread. Here are some selected quotes. Does it sound like he's OK with allowing the ankles to open and close?

--He equates "flexion" & "dorsiflexion" & shows a graphic to explain what flexion means 2.08
--"Flexing the ankles is the start, but by itself not enough." 5.35
--"Without tension we aren't ready for action." 6.27
--"A skier's ankle may be flexed, but without tension what good is it?" 6.30
--"We need to have constant tension in our ankles so we keep moving forward with" the skis. 7.23
--"Flexion is a start but there has to be tension." 7.35
--"We can look at an athlete to see if they have flexion, but we cannot see tension." 8.00
--"If an athlete loses flexion, they most likely did not have the needed tension." 8.8
--"Teaching tension should be near the top of that fundamentals or basics list." 8.20
--"When you see an athlete in the back seat or with straight ankles, let's do more than just change what they look like. Let's add some tension to that stance." 11.50

 

[Steve]

I just re-watched that lengthy Ron Kipp video linked upthread. Here are some selected quotes. Does it sound like he's OK with allowing the ankles to open and close?

Yes. Nothing you quoted says to keep them flexed at all times, nor to keep them flexed in a static way. It says to keep tension to allow them to flex.

There is range of motion within flexion. Ankles can be flexed to various degrees. Innervating the muscles (tension) allows the skier to control this range.