Focuses/takeaways from training in New Zealand

[LiquidFeet]

It sounds (to me) like he means keep ankles tensely flexed all the time. I read that message permeating his video from start to end. I guess you and I understand his use of the words "tension" and "dorsiflexion" and "flexion" differently.

Time to agree to disagree.

 

[Steve]

And I am not advocating his way. The less polarization, the more finding common ground the better.

I agree that there is not one way to do anything, but the more we find commonalities rather than focus on differences the better.

 

[Steve]

It sounds (to me) like he means keep ankles tensely flexed all the time. I guess we understand "tension" and "dorsiflexion" and "flexion" differently.

See the quote above from the Alpine Technical Manual. Tension is innervation, it is not a position. Yes, Kipp may want a more limited range than Ursula (or Bob Barnes, or you, skisailor and I) but I don't see him advocating a static fixed degree of dorsiflexion.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I do remember Bob Barnes being against "hanging out on the front of the boot cuffs" back in the day. I think people really do differ on this issue, and that both must be useful.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Here are some images of people (most likely good skiers) "hanging out on the fronts of the cuffs." Their ankles are flexed/dorsiflexed, but those ankle muscles are probably not maximally tensed because these folks are just standing around and relaxing. But it still takes some muscle action to get the lower legs tilted this much, even when just standing and waiting for something to happen. Why do you think these skiers stand this way when they are not actively skiing, maintaining some tension/flexion in their ankles? This does not come naturally; they had to train themselves to do this.

 

[Uke]

Seems to me that when we allow the foot to function as designed and we simply stand on it there is a certain amount of 'tension' inherent in the system as the foot/ankle complex 'tenses' to become a stable base of support. So maybe I don't have to maintain tension as much as allow it.

About the lifting the toes thing. It is something that any student that skis with me more than once will hear and usually they hear it the first time they ski with me. I use it largely as a corrective for the 9 out of 10 students that have tremendous tension in their feet from trying to make a fist with their foot. Once they have broken the grip the bottom of the boot habit I have them ski on what I call a 'relaxed foot' or one that is under natural tension and is functioning as designed. Another plus is that the student has become better centered over their feet.

uke

 

[JESinstr]

I just re-watched that lengthy Ron Kipp video linked upthread. Here are some selected quotes. Does it sound like he's OK with allowing the ankles to open and close?

--He equates "flexion" & "dorsiflexion" & shows a graphic to explain what flexion means 2.08

I took notice of this the first time I saw this video when @Doby Man Posted it a while back

So in the beginning of a turn, if I engage the "Hinge Complex" in a flexing pattern and my ankle closes as a result, creating pressure (let's also call it tension) between the tibia and the tongue of the boot, did that require dorsiflexion? I think not. IMO, what dorsiflexion adds to the equation is a superior way to help control the COM to BOS relationship as the turn forces/dynamics continue to build.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Last year during the Olympics, I watched many of the downhill training runs. They showed the training runs in slow motion. It was amazing to see how much the racer’s ankles opened and closed.

Brendan Doran is a former Olympic ski jumper and a trainer at Aspen. He is an amazing skier. I have done several clinics with him and he is a huge proponent of constant ankle movement.

I have skied in clinics with current demo team members who want me to crouch like a small troll but really can’t explain why or how that changes my skiing. All it did was cause back pain. Bob Barnes always says to question everything and I think that is important.

Also, when we are teaching, we must look at our audience and help them achieve their goals. Most of my students want to ski in control over the whole mountain. They do not want to go fast. Intent dictates technique and as instructors, we need to be mindful of that.

 

[Skisailor]

I watched the video again. Shuffling throughout the turn results in opening and closing the ankle.

I think the primary disconnect is in supple ankles vs. tensed ankles. I don't however think that tensed ankles are limited in open/close motion.

I'd love to hear @mike_m respond to this issue. Mike?

When I think of what Ursula has taught me - I want to make sure to be clear - I don't think she would advocate any tension in the ankles beyond the normal tension we unconsciously use to stand and walk and balance.

When she hears "functional tension" applied to the ankles, her comment is - it may be tension, but it is dysfunctional. Now - that is a bit of hyperbole and would be said with a grin on her face. But she does feel strongly about it.

I respect where LF has landed on this issue. After all, it's partly finding what works for us as individuals in the environment where we ski.

I don't believe anatomy plays a role in this. But others things might. That said, Ursula is a purist on this issue, and if you see her ski, you will understand why.

I'm sure she would acknowledge a tense ankle as A way to ski. But she emphasizes versatility and efficiency more than any trainer I have ever skied with. And I think that is where the need for maximum ankle range of motion plays such an important role.

 

[LiquidFeet]

So for those of you advocating a wide range of ankle action in the fore-aft direction with ankles opening and closing, under what circumstances do you choose to pressure the back of the cuff, and for what benefit? This is certainly a part of maximum ankle movement in the fore-aft plane. Are your skis weighted when you pressure the back of the cuff with open ankles? How is this beneficial? Do you do it at end of the turn so the tails grip?

Or do you choose to only go back as far as in the middle of the cuff, not allowing those ankles to open up completely but stopping them when the lower legs get to the middle of the cuff? Is this the tension you maintain?

And when the ankles are open to the extent of having the lower legs come up perpendicular to the skis, and your lower legs are upright on the skis instead of tilted forward as in those images I just posted, and your tongue-shin pressure is low, what part of a turn is that and what's the benefit? Are the skis weighted at this point? If they are weighted, and you aren't aft, you must be bent forward at the hips and the knees must be open. Like using a walker. I suspect this is not what you are advocating. Maybe there's another way of staying off the tails when you have upright shins and/or are pressing against the back of the cuffs.

Or is being aft as you open your ankles with shins getting upright on the skis just fine because at that part of the turn you are light or floating? (This I understand and am familiar with re: reaching short radius turns, top part of turn, as skis reach out away from the skier.)

Or when your shins are upright, are you in the bumps skiing a direct line, flexing and absorbing and back-pedaling like mad? I do know that Bob Barnes' graphic of back-pedalling does not show ankles opening and closing; they stay flexed and stable; their shin-tongue pressure is maintained with tilted forward lower legs.

 

[Skisailor]

It sounds (to me) like he means keep ankles tensely flexed all the time. I read that message permeating his video from start to end. I guess you and I understand his use of the words "tension" and "dorsiflexion" and "flexion" differently.

Time to agree to disagree.

I agree that defining terms of important here. I'm thinking a lot of this is just a matter of degree.

I was originally reacting to a phrase from @mike_m where he said he skis with his ankles "closed at all times".

So . . . how flexed is "closed"? I took it to mean significantly dorsiflexed.

But it does imply a much more restricted ankle range of motion than Ursula, who seems to be at one end of the spectrum on this issue.

@Steve - with regard to the connection of all this to your ideas about the feet, I think Ursula tends to advocate that we stand on our feet and not "hang on the equipment". So we practice skiing as though we don't need to rely on the boot to stay upright.
It's there if we need it. But camping out on the boot cuff, for example, is a big no no for her. So with that whole idea of "stand on your feet", We only use the tension we use in everyday life for walking and moving and balancing - which is more unconscious than conscious.

Don't get me wrong - Ursula will mash a boot cuff if necessary to achieve her desired outcome, but her overall balancing does not require the equipment to keep her upright.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

So for those of you advocating a wide range of ankle action in the fore-aft direction with ankles opening and closing, under what circumstances do you choose to pressure the back of the cuff, and for what benefit? This is certainly a part of maximum ankle movement in the fore-aft plane. Are your skis weighted when you pressure the back of the cuff with open ankles? How is this beneficial? Do you do it at end of the turn so the tails grip?

Or do you choose to only go back as far as in the middle of the cuff, not allowing those ankles to open up completely but stopping them when the lower legs get to the middle of the cuff? Is this the tension you maintain?

And when the ankles are open to the extent of having the lower legs come up perpendicular to the skis, and your lower legs are upright on the skis instead of tilted forward as in those images I just posted, and your tongue-shin pressure is low, what part of a turn is that and what's the benefit? Are the skis weighted at this point? If they are weighted, and you aren't aft, you must be bent forward at the hips and the knees must be open. Like using a walker. I suspect this is not what you are advocating. Maybe there's another way of staying off the tails when you have upright shins and/or are pressing against the back of the cuffs.

Or is being aft as you open your ankles with shins getting upright on the skis just fine because at that part of the turn you are light or floating? (This I understand and am familiar with re: reaching short radius turns, top part of turn, as skis reach out away from the skier.)

Or when your shins are upright, are you in the bumps skiing a direct line, flexing and absorbing and back-pedaling like mad? I do know that Bob Barnes' graphic of back-pedalling does not show ankles opening and closing; they stay flexed and stable; their shin-tongue pressure is maintained with tilted forward lower legs.

I flex and extend my ankles, knees and hips as much as necessary to stay in balance. In general, I never mash on the front of the boot and do not purposefully put pressure on the back of the boot. I have never really understood Bob Barnes’ backpedaling motion. Although, I do recall his graphic being a stick figure so it does not show each joint.

 

[Steve]

http://www.peakfitnessnw.com/exercise/one-small-muscle

Very interesting article about the tibialis anterior (TA) and it's use in skiing.

However we define "tension" isn't the issue imo. The issue is that we need to use our muscles when we ski, not just stand there and hope that the joints will absorb, flex and extend on their own. Activating the TA seems quite important. I've also read a couple of articles just now in runner's websites about muscle tension and the key takeaway is that there is the proper amount of it needed depending upon the intensity of the activity. Too little muscular tension and the muscle is not ready to be used. Too much and it is hard to use it.

I highly suggest reading the link.

As the TA also inverts the foot, it would be a key muscle to use in the inside ski to tip it more.

 

[Steve]

I am continuing my comments on this topic to the spread your toes thread I started as it seems more relevant.

https://www.pugski.com/threads/spre...e-soles-of-your-feet.11401/page-4#post-265781

 

[BGreen]

@mike_m This is the first time I’ve seen ski instructors pushing a race-based technique (with one big exception). Was there discussion about what inspired the change?

 

[BGreen]

Why do you think these skiers stand this way when they are not actively skiin

Because the boots have shaft angle and ramp angle.

 

[Skisailor]

Because the boots have shaft angle and ramp angle.

And because when you are forced into a shin angle like that, you have to come forward a lot in the hips and bend your knees to match your angles or you will KILL your quads. They stand that way so they can lean on the boot cuff and give their quads a break.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Because the boots have shaft angle and ramp angle.

Boots don't control shin angle. Muscles do... the Tibialis Anterior, to be specific.

 

[François Pugh]

Boots don't control shin angle. Muscles do... the Tibialis Anterior, to be specific.
View attachment 53640

Ha ha, the only way I could do that in my boots is with a tib fib fracture. If my shins were at that forward lean, my boots would be too.

They stand like they do because it takes less effort to let the boots hold you up than to stand up straight with muscular effort.

When I ,close my ankles,( I guess using the tibialis anterior), dorsiflect if you will, I'm more bringing my shin to toes, knees to skis, than lifting toes off the snow.
I like to feel pressure applied through the bottom of the foot, often including under the ball of foot. However, if it (lifting the entire forefoot off the boot sole) is working for you in your skiing development, then go ahead and use whatever works.

 

[mdf]

Why do you think these skiers stand this way when they are not actively skiing

I think it is because they have, or once had when their habits were being set, a boot with so much forward lean that leaning on the cuffs was easier than standing up straighter. I remember once when I tried a boot with a lot of forward lean, skiing was fine but standing in the lift line was torture.