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Focuses/takeaways from training in New Zealand

Steve

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@Jamt that was a great post. I need to save that somewhere. Great to see you! ogsmile
 

Skisailor

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Skisailor,

What is your definition of the word dogma. I presented my def (which is basically the dictionary def) to provide clarity in my post as I thought that our usage of the term would differ. How should I interpret your use of the word.

I'll also admit the part of my reaction to the word is that is that it most often used in a negative context to disparage the information referred to as dogmatic. I can't think of how I would use the term in a positive way, or even neutral in my mind.

uke

ps Yeah, jamt is back, this means ski season in near and we will maybe get a peek at some of the more scientifically based research on skiing.

I do agree that the word dogma is often seen to have negative connotations. So maybe that was a poor choice. I tend to think that it can be negative but isn't necessarily so. But let's not get hung up on the word and get to the meat. :)

What I do see is a shift in ideas about how fore-aft pressure should be managed in a ski turn.

Did it come down from "on high"? Apparently - from the D team and National.

Is it now an accepted best practice by the trainers? Yes. It is taught in required trainings to the rank n file instructors (without any real explanation for why this would be an improvement) and is necessary for progress in certifications - so it does have an element of forced necessity. .

Lastly, has there been any meaningful questioning of the "new" concepts at any level that I am aware of? No.

None of that is necessarily bad - but it can potentially be. In any case, it's always good, in my view, to be open to trying things out in the name of versatility.

The proof is in the pudding. And the pudding for me is - can I ski all of the terrain and conditions a big mountain has to offer and do it without fatigue? Movement patterns that are more efficient without sacrificing effectiveness in achieving that personal goal are the ones I gravitate towards.
 

Skisailor

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@Jamt -
Let me add maybe a different way of looking at t.

It's not so much whether the tip is creating a trench or barely skimming the snow surface, but rather whether there is any lateral displacement of the edges (directly sideways if we lose the edge grip - hopefully not) or via adding rotation in a steered turn to match our intent (hopefully yes).

So I see one bright line - either the ski (trench or not) is traveling along its length from tip to tail (carving) or it is doing something else. And that other thing happens because there is some degree of lateral displacement of the edges (hopefully in an expertly steered turn).

Turns can also be partly carved and partly steered or slipped. A stivot is the perfect example. Practicing turns that we start by steering the top then fully engaging the edges to carve the second half - or carving the start then adding rotation for the finish, add incredible versatility - particularly to a skier's off piste toolbox, IMHO.

Edited to add - being aft at the end of turns does not work well for me personally because it makes it much harder to create those kinds of versatile - do anything at any moment - kinds of turns.
 
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Uke

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jamt,

Thanks, this is a conformation for me for a lot of what I see, feel and teach. I think and refer to it as the ski tracking more forward than sideways.

As to your comment about the tip of the ski slipping. Does this have anything to do with a ski in the transition phase seeming to self steer a tighter arc?

uke
 

HardDaysNight

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About the non-carved turns. Earlier in the thread there was a discussion about brushed turns. It was argued that brushed turns are like carved turns but that the tails are laterally sliding as compared to the tips. In my experience it is the other way around. In "brushed" turns the tails are carving but the tips are not.

This is an interesting nugget (and at this stage it’s worth mining the thread for all we can get!) and I agree with you. I’ve attributed this to the progressive nature of the tipping of the outside ski which engages the tail of the ski more and more as the turn progresses and as the pressure moves aft. But I’d be interested in your thoughts as to the mechanism.
 

François Pugh

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I call your theory, and raise you with experience. In my experience: I can make a "brushed" carve turn with the tips sliding more than the tails, with the tails sliding more than the tips and with the tips and tails sliding equally; I can also vary what part of the ski slides more; I can do this at any point in the turn.
However, I prefer to make arc-2-arc turns with the tips cleanly and sharply cutting into the snow to start a clean trench.
 

Jamt

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@Jamt -
Let me add maybe a different way of looking at t.

It's not so much whether the tip is creating a trench or barely skimming the snow surface, but rather whether there is any lateral displacement of the edges (directly sideways if we lose the edge grip - hopefully not) or via adding rotation in a steered turn to match our intent (hopefully yes).

So I see one bright line - either the ski (trench or not) is traveling along its length from tip to tail (carving) or it is doing something else. And that other thing happens because there is some degree of lateral displacement of the edges (hopefully in an expertly steered turn).

Turns can also be partly carved and partly steered or slipped. A stivot is the perfect example. Practicing turns that we start by steering the top then fully engaging the edges to carve the second half - or carving the start then adding rotation for the finish, add incredible versatility - particularly to a skier's off piste toolbox, IMHO.

Edited to add - being aft at the end of turns does not work well for me personally because it makes it much harder to create those kinds of versatile - do anything at any moment - kinds of turns.
There are many ways the ski can slide laterally and that is fine. But it is not what I would call brushed carving.

I come primarily from a racing background and to add rotation in the latter part of the turn is considered very bad. Even in recreational skiing I see it mostly as a recovery "tool".

One big reason to be aft in one short turn is that the direction of aft in that turn is partly inlination when you reach the fall line in the next turn. You can reach high inclination/angles faster.

jamt,

Thanks, this is a conformation for me for a lot of what I see, feel and teach. I think and refer to it as the ski tracking more forward than sideways.

As to your comment about the tip of the ski slipping. Does this have anything to do with a ski in the transition phase seeming to self steer a tighter arc?

uke
Yes, it is used to get a tighter turn. Partly because a larger portion of the ski has a larger steering angle, and partly becuase it slows you down.

This is an interesting nugget (and at this stage it’s worth mining the thread for all we can get!) and I agree with you. I’ve attributed this to the progressive nature of the tipping of the outside ski which engages the tail of the ski more and more as the turn progresses and as the pressure moves aft. But I’d be interested in your thoughts as to the mechanism.
This is a tricky one. I think that when the "trench" is first created there is no trench in the aft part of the ski so at this point it has no trench to follow. This means that the tips will engage more than the tails, with a more bent ski in the fore part. This pushes you aft, and you need to meet this force by beeing fore. It is more about moving forward early in the turn than beeing forward. As the turn, trench and angles progress you can move aft for a cleaner turn.

Often I think that the best turns are when you start "brushed" and then progress into a clean carve.

I call your theory, and raise you with experience. In my experience: I can make a "brushed" carve turn with the tips sliding more than the tails, with the tails sliding more than the tips and with the tips and tails sliding equally; I can also vary what part of the ski slides more; I can do this at any point in the turn.
However, I prefer to make arc-2-arc turns with the tips cleanly and sharply cutting into the snow to start a clean trench.
Depends on the definition of what a brushed carve is. IMO a brushed carve leaves tracks that look carved. Not all of the turns you describe will do that.



About the versatility. If you can make it down a rutted SL course with varying degrees of brushing, carving, pivoting etc. you also have a very effective turn to use in the back country. It is probably easier because your goal is not to go as fast as possible.

One drill that I really love is to start with slow skidded/brushed turns and progressively using more and more carve until the turn is a full blown SL turn, and then again progressing back to the starting type of turn.
 

LiquidFeet

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....Depends on the definition of what a brushed carve is. IMO a brushed carve leaves tracks that look carved. Not all of the turns you describe will do that....

@Jamt, IME when a skier manually, muscularly rotates the skis, this action destroys the potential to make tracks that "look carved." So I use the term "brushed carve" for turns in which the skis do some skidding - not because the skier has rotated them - but because the platform angle on the outside ski is not sufficient to hold a carve.
Do you agree?
 
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Uke

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I do agree that the word dogma is often seen to have negative connotations. So maybe that was a poor choice. I tend to think that it can be negative but isn't necessarily so. But let's not get hung up on the word and get to the meat. :)

What I do see is a shift in ideas about how fore-aft pressure should be managed in a ski turn.

Did it come down from "on high"? Apparently - from the D team and National.

Is it now an accepted best practice by the trainers? Yes. It is taught in required trainings to the rank n file instructors (without any real explanation for why this would be an improvement) and is necessary for progress in certifications - so it does have an element of forced necessity. .

Lastly, has there been any meaningful questioning of the "new" concepts at any level that I am aware of? No.

None of that is necessarily bad - but it can potentially be. In any case, it's always good, in my view, to be open to trying things out in the name of versatility.

The proof is in the pudding. And the pudding for me is - can I ski all of the terrain and conditions a big mountain has to offer and do it without fatigue? Movement patterns that are more efficient without sacrificing effectiveness in achieving that personal goal are the ones I gravitate towards.

Skisailor,

Interesting how background can affect how we look at things

From my viewpoint the change didn't come down from above recently. It has been working its way up for the past 20 years and is finally getting the acceptance and distribution that it deserves. The change in where we stand on our foot has been accepted by much of the training community because they have found that it does indeed work as advertised and produces a more stable platform to work from as well as being more efficient.

As to your feeling that the new stuff hasn't been questioned. It's been questioned (and dismissed as wrong at times) for over 20 years and is still being questioned at least where I am. As I understand it there was a major discussion when the fundamentals were being developed over whether the one about pressure along the length of the ski should include directing the pressure toward the balls of the feet.

To my eye, someone who changes where they stand to move more in line with being centered, does a better job at meeting the standards of the cert process.

It's a shame that the why behind the change hasn't been communicated to you properly. Too many times trainers just pass on what they receive in their clinics without understanding why themselves. For too many it's just parroting the seasons catch phrase such as 'ball, wall, fall' or 'topple into the turn'.

uke
 

Skisailor

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Skisailor,

Interesting how background can affect how we look at things

From my viewpoint the change didn't come down from above recently. It has been working its way up for the past 20 years and is finally getting the acceptance and distribution that it deserves. The change in where we stand on our foot has been accepted by much of the training community because they have found that it does indeed work as advertised and produces a more stable platform to work from as well as being more efficient.

As to your feeling that the new stuff hasn't been questioned. It's been questioned (and dismissed as wrong at times) for over 20 years and is still being questioned at least where I am. As I understand it there was a major discussion when the fundamentals were being developed over whether the one about pressure along the length of the ski should include directing the pressure toward the balls of the feet.

To my eye, someone who changes where they stand to move more in line with being centered, does a better job at meeting the standards of the cert process.

It's a shame that the why behind the change hasn't been communicated to you properly. Too many times trainers just pass on what they receive in their clinics without understanding why themselves. For too many it's just parroting the seasons catch phrase such as 'ball, wall, fall' or 'topple into the turn'.

uke


Thanks for your perspective. I value it and appreciate you sharing it with me.
 
Thread Starter
TS
mike_m

mike_m

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LiquidFeet sent me a PM that I hope she doesn't mind me sharing: "Mike, your thread on NZ Rookie Academy has gained a ton of traction. I've certainly enjoyed participating in it. Do you consider it a success?"

I do! It was fun to get the feedback and responses. I was hoping to introduce/clarify some new concepts to folks and to stimulate examination of current thinking on technique; I think that has happened. I also wanted folks to be aware of the Rookie Academy and its offerings in case they wish to take advantage of this quality of coaching themselves. Personally, I love being coached! I love the process of having a good coach introduce something new to me and to feel a positive change in my skiing from doing it. I often tell my students that no matter how good you are, there's always someone better who can help you improve if you want to. To me the true expert is someone who realizes how much more there is to learn! Personally, I love that process and the feeling that I can ski something better today than I could yesterday because of something I refined in my skiing; the never-ending search for effortless efficiency!

Thanks again to all who read and participated!

Best!
Mike
 

4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
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About the versatility. If you can make it down a rutted SL course with varying degrees of brushing, carving, pivoting etc. you also have a very effective turn to use in the back country. It is probably easier because your goal is not to go as fast as possible.

From my viewpoint the change didn't come down from above recently. It has been working its way up for the past 20 years and is finally getting the acceptance and distribution that it deserves.

:thumb: :thumb:

0C1208CC-220F-4EE4-9DC3-F221ADCDBCA8.gif
 

4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
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I often tell my students that no matter how good you are, there's always someone better who can help you improve if you want to. To me the true expert is someone who realizes how much more there is to learn!

:thumb:

I will just add that they don't always have to be better than you or more experienced. I think I've learned more from my students/athletes over the years than they have learned from me.
SBNJan-7.jpg

We all learn from each other, just like this thread.
Thanks for sharing ogsmile.
 

JESinstr

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Sometimes, conversations on Carving makes me want to pull what little hair I have left out!!!
But the following observation may be of relevance.

Like painting on canvas, skiing can be a very creative endeavor and just as the hand is to the brush, the body is to the ski.
How one makes the ski create a circular path can indeed be creative especially when in the hands of a trained and experienced user.

From the pragmatist's perception, carving is the process of creating circular travel which simultaneously creates centripetal force. By Definition: Centripetal is the force that makes a body (your mass) follow a curved path. Its direction is always orthogonal (perpendicular) to the motion of the body - meaning your mass always wants to go straight and will do so unless you create the circular path - and towards the fixed point of the instantaneous center of curvature of the path -meaning you are actually accelerating towards the center of the circle.

IMO, Because this is truly a binary condition, it has given rise to sayings like "you are either carving or you are not" or "when rotating, you are turning the skis, when you are carving, the skis are turning you" The reality is that 99.999999 percent of the time, creating a "Ski Turn" it is a combination of both with rotary providing the "entry ramp" to the carving state to the extent that said state can be developed.

I admittedly fall into the pragmatist's camp which is evident because I can't race worth a damn!!! But I truly admire those with the gift of creative vision that allows them to accel in the race course. I like to think, that as teachers, we also have a creative ability to develop various explanations, drills and exercises that help students succeed.

Finally, I have come to take the word "Brushing" as mechanics term vs an observation. Thanks to the contributions of many on his forum, I consider the subject of femoral rotation extremely critical to the development of a turn.
 
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