Efficiency of Flat vs Clipless Pedals

[cantunamunch]

it's hard to argue with the idea that no one would advocate for doing deadlifts or squats while trying to stand on the ball of foot, pedaling a bike is not all that different yet pedals force us to do this.

So...how is a pedal going to fix that?

I seriously don't understand the argument here. Unless it's simply that cleats should be mounted somewhere in the middle of the shoe sole, instead of towards the front?

 

[scott43]

So...how is a pedal going to fix that?

I seriously don't understand the argument here. Unless it's simply that cleats should be mounted somewhere in the middle of the shoe sole, instead of towards the front?

I would give the idea some credit if we pushed down in a straight line like the outlawed arrangement that's been floated before. But the fact is, we pedal circles..

 

[cantunamunch]

I would give the idea some credit if we pushed down in a straight line like the outlawed arrangement that's been floated before. But the fact is, we pedal circles..

My local co-op has an Alenax in the window if you want it

 

[Mike Thomas]

So...how is a pedal going to fix that?

Well, James Wilson isn't talking about clipless pedals, he is a huge flat pedal advocate. His pedal design is extremely long, it bridges the length of the arch, from ball of foot to the front of the heel. He is also an advocate of standing while pedaling so the whole 'pedal in circles' thing is really on non-starter for the "flat pedals win medals" and "stand and deliver" crowd. You don't have to agree, you don't have to switch allegiance, but you should realize that there is a growing number of people who do ride like this.

 

[luliski]

So he (James Wilson) isn't arguing that a flat pedal is better than clipless, more that clipless is not necessarily always better.
https://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/The-Flat-Pedal-Revolution-Manifesto-2017.pdf

 

[Philpug]

So he (James Wilson) isn't arguing that a flat pedal is better than clipless, more that clipless is not necessarily always better.
https://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/The-Flat-Pedal-Revolution-Manifesto-2017.pdf

WOW. just WOW. Quite the indepth amount of research.

 

[martyg]

So he (James Wilson) isn't arguing that a flat pedal is better than clipless, more that clipless is not necessarily always better.
https://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/The-Flat-Pedal-Revolution-Manifesto-2017.pdf

All of the studies, including the Korff where the author of the manifesto (great work BTW) have one flaw in common - in that the test a relatively small (I think 8 or 10)sample set. I read one study, conducted in the deep south so they had a large population of sedentary folks, that compared times on a flat road for clipless and flat pedals. Of course, the study population never rode. Of course, they never rode in clipless so they had very little comfort with them. Their times with flats were faster, so the author of that study concluded that flats are faster than clipless.

Also notice the VO2 max (low) average watt output (really low), body mass (high) of the study group in the Korff study. The study listed the study group of cyclists, but they would be recreational at best from their metrics. Likewise the GCN "study" is flawed in so many ways.

It would be cool to see a study, with several populations and larger number in each study group of varying fitness / cycling abilities, tested on the same course of highly varying terrain. Of course there is no financial gain in this for anyone, so the funding of the study would be problematic. Testing a population. that had extensive technique video-analysis conducted, and one that did not would be interesting as well.

Lots of variables.

 

[Mike Thomas]

What would such a study 'prove'?

Every single xc bike racer above even a the sport class ride clipess... that is not by chance. For pure efficiency there is no way to argue that clipless isn't a better way to transfer power to the drivetrain. There is no need for a study.

On the other hand, most of us do not ride to 'win' anything, so What we like starts to matter a whole lot more than tiny changes in power. Factor enjoyment with increased confidence for many (I am not in this group, but I understand them) and flats are an easy choice.

Anyone arguing 'for flats' is doing so for increased enjoyment, not increased efficiency. The 'argument' is how much of a loss is there really? Most think it's a lot less than we used to believe.

Put another way- I might get fast if I could change my diet to look as food as JUST fuel and disassociated any pleasure from eating. It WOULD make me better at riding, but F that. Why would I do that? I like food and I couldn't care less if I beat my riding friends uphill. Agonizing about pedal effieciency is similar. The TdF is never going to be won on flat pedals again, 98% of us SHOULDN'T care, ride what makes you feel good.

 

[scott43]

Agonizing about pedal effieciency is similar. 98% of us SHOULDN'T care, ride what makes you feel good.

Now that I totally agree with.

 

[luliski]

The 'argument' is how much of a loss is there really? Most think it's a lot less than we used to believe.

Maybe that's what the study proposed by @martyg could show?

I like food and I couldn't care less if I beat my riding friends uphill.

I like food too, but I don't wan to be hurting on a every climb either. I don't need to "beat my friends riding uphill," but it's more fun to be able to at least keep up.

ride what makes you feel good.

exactly

 

[Mike Thomas]

Maybe that's what the study proposed by @martyg could show?

OK, I just completed a massive independent study of 5,000 cyclists. The participants ranged from pro level xc racer to beginner/ first season casual bike commuters. Here are the results-

Pro racers and road cyclists laughed and set "get those things away from me" when asked to try flats
Expert racers were 12% faster on clipless
Advanced trail riders were 4% faster clipless but multiple 'outliers' were actually quicker on flats and smiled more
Intermediate trail riders were faster on their 'prefered system' 100% of the time
Beginners were 30% faster on flats.

This was exhausting work, it really took a lot to figure out, but you are all welcome! I feel my time and efforts were well worth it to push exercise science forward... now on to middle east peace and the environment!

 

[cantunamunch]

The problem with a world of individual truths is that consequent interaction is all marketing.

 

[martyg]

What would such a study 'prove'?
Most think it's a lot less than we used to believe.

Put another way- I might get fast if I could change my diet to look as food as JUST fuel and disassociated any pleasure from eating. It WOULD make me better at riding, but F that. Why would I do that? I like food and I couldn't care less if I beat my riding friends uphill. Agonizing about pedal effieciency is similar. The TdF is never going to be won on flat pedals again, 98% of us SHOULDN'T care, ride what makes you feel good.

I would give the idea some credit if we pushed down in a straight line like the outlawed arrangement that's been floated before. But the fact is, we pedal circles..

Bingo. And if our relationship with gravity was the same as with squats and dead lifts. Once we introduce handlebars and a saddle those vectors all change.

 

[Joel]

These have been out a while but I just ran across them. Might be a good fit for those that, sometimes you feel like a clip and sometimes you don't.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/deorext-t8000/PD-T8000.html

 

[luliski]

These have been out a while but I just ran across them. Might be a good fit for those that, sometimes you feel like a clip and sometimes you don't.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/deorext-t8000/PD-T8000.html

My sister had something like those on her road bike, and when I rode her bike (with cleats) it was a bit of a PITA. I was always on the wrong side when I wanted to clip in.

 

[cantunamunch]

My sister had something like those on her road bike, and when I rode her bike (with cleats) it was a bit of a PITA. I was always on the wrong side when I wanted to clip in.

The hack/bodge for that is to duct tape some weights onto the side towards you.

On the upside you will get a biased-neutral just like Look road pedals.

On the downside, you'll probably be adding 50-60g to each pedal before it reliably ends up in that position.

 

[luliski]

road cyclists laughed and set "get those things away from me" when asked to try flats

So my sister is signed up to ride Cycle Oregon, a week-long ride/tour/party through Oregon, on roads. She's always been nervous about clipless pedals. Her greatest fear about them is that she'll be climbing so slowly that she'll tip over before she can release from the pedal. She's always used the dual-sided pedal that Joel mentioned, and has ridden the flat side when climbing.. I told her about the flats for mountain biking, and she ordered the Catalyst pedals and 5.10 shoes. She feels much more comfortable riding now, and says that she does feel like she's able to recruit more muscles with the longer pedal.
I have yet to order mine, but I plan to.

 

[luliski]

I had foot surgery last month and my foot is still too swollen to fit into my road or mountain bike (both cleated) shoes. So I put Kona Wah wah 2s on my mountain bike and the Catalyst pedals on my road bike, and I'm wearing Altra trail running shoes.
So I used the Wah wahs for my first time mountain biking with flats. I really liked them when I was climbing and worried I wouldn't clear something, I didn't have to worry about clipping out. I did keep trying to clip out instead of lifting my foot off, but I'll adjust. I love how big of a platform the pedals have, and I may never go back to clipless pedals for mountain biking. Or I may switch back and forth depending on the ride.
The Catalyst pedals on my road bike are huge, but they distribute the pressure on my foot, and at least I can ride. I can't see them as being as efficient as clipless, especially not on standing climbs. I also have some overlap issues with them on my road bike, so I'll be going back to clipless for road for sure. It will be interesting to compare these to the Wah wahs on my mountain bike.

 

[Tricia]

I went on a mellow ride with my girlfriends yesterday, but I forgot my bag with all my gear, gloves, helmet, and shoes.
I borrowed some basic athletic shoes from Jasmine's stash of stuff in her car. It was definitely more challenging to keep my feet in place without the grippy soles of my actual flat mountain bike shoes.

 

[AmyPJ]

I went on a mellow ride with my girlfriends yesterday, but I forgot my bag with all my gear, gloves, helmet, and shoes.
I borrowed some basic athletic shoes from Jasmine's stash of stuff in her car. It was definitely more challenging to keep my feet in place without the grippy soles of my actual flat mountain bike shoes.

Oh snap! And, yes, the sticky shoes make a huge difference in grip AND support.