Utah crowds at Deer Valley article

[HardDaysNight]

Do we really need another thread with people bitching about Ikon and DV? Haven't we beaten that horse to death twice over?

No. What we really need is another thread about Stowe

 

[TheArchitect]

Many did not like or believe those of us on the mountain, now are we not going to believe an employee?

Numbers were way up, they are admitting 12% without even knowing the numbers, sounds like 12% was a guess

Re-read my post. It said this discussion has been beaten to death. I’d ask you don’t imply words in post when they clearly aren’t there. I said nothing about believing anyone

 

[Wasatchman]

Re-read my post. It said this discussion has been beaten to death. I’d ask you don’t imply words in post when they clearly aren’t there. I said nothing about believing anyone

The reason I posted the article is because it provided new details on what clearly was a lengthy and passionate discussion in previous threads.

If you don't want to be a part of any related discussion of this article, nobody is forcing you. No need to jump on people who do.

I think @Started at 53 response to you was trying to make a point that some on previous threads did seem to indicate either DV was not that much more crowded or the IKON pass had little to do with the it crowds.

And so even if it wasn't you directly saying those things, the article clearly seems to suggest that yes, DV management clearly thinks the crowds were up and the opening of the article tacitly implies IKON is a big factor.

I am guessing based on your responsenses that it is either a sensitive topic for you or you don't wish to have any additional related discussion. Accordingly, I kindly suggest your time would be better spent elsewhere rather than engaging with those of us on this thread.

 

[TheArchitect]

The reason I posted the article is because it provided new details on what clearly was a lengthy and passionate discussion in previous threads.

If you don't want to be a part of any related discussion of this article, nobody is forcing you. No need to jump on people who do.

I think @Started at 53 response to you was trying to make a point that some on previous threads did seem to indicate either DV was not that much more crowded or the IKON pass had little to do with the it crowds.

And so even if it wasn't you directly saying those things, the article clearly seems to suggest that yes, DV management clearly thinks the crowds were up and the opening of the article tacitly implies IKON is a big factor.

I am guessing based on your responsenses that it is either a sensitive topic for you or you don't wish to have any additional related discussion. Accordingly, I kindly suggest your time would be better spent elsewhere rather than engaging with those of us on this thread.

The Lightning Rod thread was locked because the discussion was beaten to death and going nowhere. What exactly is the point of this thread other than trying to say “See, I told you so!” with these new details? Is anyone disputing that crowds, and the related travel issues, were bigger this year? I heard plenty of people saying it’s not JUST Ikon but a big snow year was well. That somehow gets lost in the argument.

Perhaps the angst about Ikon’s impact should be aimed at the people truly responsible for it: the resort owners. They didn’t have to join the pass but I can only assume they decided it was a good financial decision.

Locals don’t own DV, JH or BS or any other mountain. Anyone who pays for a pass product has just as much right to ski there as the locals. Reeks of entitlement issues. If I fly to Utah next year and buy a ticket at the window is it okay for me to be there but if I have an Ikon pass am I ruining the experience? I ask because I’m going to Utah next year and if Ikon didn’t exist I’d STILL be going to Utah.

 

[Wasatchman]

The Lightning Rod thread was locked because the discussion was beaten to death and going nowhere. What exactly is the point of this thread other than trying to say “See, I told you so!” with these new details? Is anyone disputing that crowds, and the related travel issues, were bigger this year? I heard plenty of people saying it’s not JUST Ikon but a big snow year was well. That somehow gets lost in the argument.

Perhaps the angst about Ikon’s impact should be aimed at the people truly responsible for it: the resort owners. They didn’t have to join the pass but I can only assume they decided it was a good financial decision.

Locals don’t own DV, JH or BS or any other mountain. Anyone who pays for a pass product has just as much right to ski there as the locals. Reeks of entitlement issues. If I fly to Utah next year and buy a ticket at the window is it okay for me to be there but if I have an Ikon pass am I ruining the experience? I ask because I’m going to Utah next year and if Ikon didn’t exist I’d STILL be going to Utah.

I found the details in the article about DVs "skier caps" in particular quite interesting. They really don't have a handle on skier numbers. Makes you wonder about how good the data is at other resorts. Others might also be interested in the additional details with the guess that DV was up 12 percent. And if you want to think of this as an I told you so for those that disagreed, so be it.

Alterra and Vail are the talk of the town in Park City right now, so be glad you don't live here.

I don't expect we'll have many posts on this thread beyond this, given the exhaustive discussion elsewhere. But I thought it was an interesting follow up article.

What it seems to come down to is that locals don't tend to love Alterra/Vail and visitors do.

BTW, as much as I don't like the direction of a Vail/Alterra duopoly, I just bought an IKON pass. So I bitch about Alterra as an IKON holder and part of the problem myself. I still think IKON is hurting the experience, but don't take it so personally man.

 

[raytseng]

Laat post for me in this thread,
its personal because its not about purchase, pricing or business decisions or crowds but a pure "you're not really welcome here" and the microaggressions related to that, which at the core of it is not just about skiing, but being bad at being a human.

Don't worry dv had plenty of that attitude even before, once the novelty wears off, the snooty elitist isolationists can have it, 1 day of DV was enough for me, core pass ppl arent going to use up 5, let alone 7days, or planning future seasons around dv.

 

[Philpug]

I truly believe if this was a bad snow year...we wouldn't be having this discussion. I was talking to @LewyM regarding Whistler, they are not having the best snow year and numbers are down...is that because of the Epic Pass? This year has been a perfect storm, great snow, Ikon Pass, good economy, and bucket list destinations. I don't think it is one thing..I am not saying the Ikon Pass is not part of the increase, I am saying it is not as much Ikon Pass as some portray it to be.

 

[HardDaysNight]

Alterra and Vail are the talk of the town in Park City right now, so be glad you don't live here.

Graffiti vandals are not necessarily good spellers!

 

[Andy Mink]

I think the IKON pass is an easy target because it's right there. It was THE big change between last year and this year. Throw in all the ancillary factors and it's not as easy to deconstruct the crowds.

 

[fatbob]

Laat post for me in this thread,
its personal because its not about purchase, pricing or business decisions or crowds but a pure "you're not really welcome here" and the microaggressions related to that, which at the core of it is not just about skiing, but being bad at being a human.

Don't worry dv had plenty of that attitude even before, once the novelty wears off, the snooty elitist isolationists can have it, 1 day of DV was enough for me, core pass ppl arent going to use up 5, let alone 7days, or planning future seasons around dv.

Got to admit this is what it feels like to me when I see the quotes from unhappy "locals" or staff. Get over yourselves. If you want to pay for privilege that game has moved to the Yellowstone Club (or maybe PowMow if you're a tech bro. You should have mutualised and outbid Alterra if you really wanted to keep your little paradise private.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Got to admit this is what it feels like to me when I see the quotes from unhappy "locals" or staff. Get over yourselves. If you want to pay for privilege that game has moved to the Yellowstone Club (or maybe PowMow if you're a tech bro. You should have mutualised and outbid Alterra if you really wanted to keep your little paradise private.

I also think that it it a minority of outspoken loudmouths who make all kinds of assumptions about things and that their views do not reflect the views of many locals or staff.

 

[RJS]

Let's deconstruct the numbers a little bit. While we don't know a lot, we know that visitation at the resort "was up 12 percent in visitation compared to previous years". Additionally, we know that as of March, visitation was up by 6% at Alta, and 16% at Jackson Hole. Alta estimated that 3% and Jackson Hole estimated that 8% of increased visitation was incremental traffic attributable to the IKON Pass, respectively.

Based on the fact that roughly half of increased visitation was attributable to the IKON Pass at Alta and Jackson Hole, we could apply that same ratio to Deer Valley and estimate that 6% of the increased visitation is attributable to the IKON Pass. I would guess that the ratio of IKON incremental visitation to total increased visitation is actually higher at Deer Valley than at Alta or Jackson Hole. There is a large local population buying the IKON Pass in Utah. Most of these people are intending to ski most of their days in BCC (where you get unlimited Solitude) and LCC. As others have discussed here, I believe that there's a "novelty" factor to skiing at Deer Valley now that the marginal cost of a ticket is zero. Additionally, transportation woes in LCC and BCC lead skiers to visit Deer Valley when traffic is awful for LCC/BCC, as the director of marketing for Deer Valley said in the article, "the numbers peaked when Big Cottonwood and Little Cottonwood canyons closed because of heavy snowfall or intense wind." So maybe instead of a ratio of 1/2, we could guess that the ratio is closer to 2/3? If that's the case, then perhaps 8% of the increased visitation is attributable to the IKON Pass instead of 6%. That's hopefully being conservative, so let's go with the 8% number for now.

An 8% increase in visitation attributable to the IKON Pass is significant, but it's not astounding. It's probably not a number high enough to justify all of the scorn and blame that the IKON Pass received.

There are a number of factors that could lead to fewer IKON Pass holders choosing to ski at Deer Valley. As has been discussed, weather is typically the most important factor in people's decisions to ski. Poorer snow years will mean less people at Deer Valley. As the "novelty" factor wears off, you may see fewer IKON Pass holders venturing over to the Park City area. This is a longer term fix, but as the transportation issues for LCC and BCC get fixed, you could see fewer IKON Pass holders making their way over to Deer Valley. Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised if Alterra decides to make changes to the IKON Pass to increase its value to partner resorts while managing crowds. Examples of such changes could be:

• Adding more blackout days on the Base pass
• Decreasing the # of days for partner resorts on the Base pass, OR as an extreme limiting some resorts to only being on the Full pass
• Price increases on both passes, but especially the Full pass

If you're a local, in my mind the thing you need to be more worried about with respect to crowding isn't the IKON Pass, it's population growth. If the Salt Lake Valley and beyond meets or exceeds its population growth targets, you're going to have a lot more locals skiing at the same resorts that exist now. Short of adding supply through expansions (possible, but frequently opposed by groups like Save Our Canyons) or new resorts (unlikely), the resorts will only keep getting more crowded, and will probably be forced to dramatically increase prices over time to manage crowding. That's just my best guess.

 

[Philpug]

If you're a local, in my mind the thing you need to be more worried about with respect to crowding isn't the IKON Pass, it's population growth.

THIS is the elephant in the room.

 

[Seldomski]

I think what is interesting here is that DV is finally motivated to add RFID.

Most articles (and some posts on Pugski) seem to be concerned with total skier days. What really matters is what the skier does on the mountain - what they do affects the traffic and feeling of 'crowdedness'. How many lifts do they ride and which lifts? How fast are they making laps?

Say you have a season pass holder and an IKON pass holder. The season pass holder may ski most weekdays for only 1-2 hours per day in a particularly dead/no-traffic area. They use an under-utilized lift and trail and have basically zero impact on the 'crowdedness.' The IKON pass holder may be traveling to ski and therefore maximizes the visit by spending from 9am to 3:30PM all day on the mountain for 4 days. They may stick to the easiest places to get to on the mountain, or ski mainly stuff they can see from the lift. They are also more likely to stay on mountain even if it is crowded. The season pass holder may bail once it gets to a certain point.

So the idea that each of these skiers can be counted the same way and impact ski traffic the same way is a bit of nonsense. You really need RFID gates to track this properly.

 

[Ryan Dietrich]

Some good points here (and I kind of hope this thread gets locked soon, Ikon and DV really are bummer topics). But I'll throw a few things in while I can.

I think what is interesting here is that DV is finally motivated to add RFID.

I wish that decreased the price to ski (pay less people to verify tickets, but even still Alta has to have people looking on screens to verify nobody is borrowing a pass for the day.

Most articles (and some posts on Pugski) seem to be concerned with total skier days. What really matters is what the skier does on the mountain - what they do affects the traffic and feeling of 'crowdedness'. How many lifts do they ride and which lifts? How fast are they making laps?

When I'm at DV, all I do is hammer Sultan/Mayflower and Empire/Morgan. The rest of the resort is not my cup of tea.

The season pass holder may bail once it gets to a certain point.

I totally agree about the point having to extract value from limited days. I did that with my wasatch benefit days this season, because they were limited. I have an Alta season pass. I can't tell you the number of times we've left Alta at noon because we had other things to do and wanted to get out of there early. We would NEVER have done that if we only had 5 or 7 days TOTAL for the season.

 

[RJS]

The season pass holder may bail once it gets to a certain point.

I completely agree with the main point of your post, which is that skier visits doesn't paint the whole picture. RFID gates will help them do a lot of analytics with respect to how people allocate themselves. There's a reason that Vail has RFID gates at their resorts, and has a Data Science team that analyzes the data to help make decisions about pricing, upgrades, and more.

In terms of Deer Valley passholders bailing, I have a hard time seeing very many passholders bail, even if the resort continues to get more crowded. For one, Deer Valley is only one of two resorts in Utah that doesn't allow snowboarding (and we know @Started at 53 how you feel about snowboarding ). Second, Deer Valley has probably a much larger share of season passholders who own property on or close to the mountain compared with many other mountains. If you own a place on or next to Deer Valley, are you really going to go anywhere else? You're sort of locked in at that point. You could go to Park City, but even with Deer Valley getting a bit more crowded and perhaps Park City getting a bit less crowded, I still wouldn't be surprised if Park City is more crowded on your average weekend than Deer Valley. Finally, I would bet that for a lot of people who have season passes at Deer Valley, the skiing is only one part of the equation. The "experience" more broadly, meaning the food, the customer service, the cachet, are also important. If your top priority is the quality of the skiing, there are IMO better resorts to ski nearby (and I'm saying that as someone who loves Deer Valley, and thinks the skiing there is fantastic). It's no secret that you can find better snow and terrain elsewhere.

All of that being said, I could be dead wrong. Maybe season passholders will leave en mass. But I don't think so. I'm sure that Alterra is thinking critically about Deer Valley, and will make adjustments if crowding keeps getting worse. Expect to see walk up rates continue to climb, and potential changes coming to the structure of the IKON passes in the future.

 

[Andy Mink]

In terms of Deer Valley passholders bailing

I think in this case "bail" means go home when the snow is bad, the weather is bad, or the crowds get too big. A day to day issue, not bail from the resort all together. Whereas a visitor will stay on less than good days to get their money and time worth.

 

[fatbob]

Let's get it straight. DV isn't even counting stuff properly yet which is pretty duff practice for making decisions. Plus they are owned by Alterra not a partner resort so don't get to call the shots (flipside of that is they probably aren't under a multiyear contract to honour Ikon days so Alterra can also cut off Ikon at will before each season gets sold. 3 years data sample before you conclusively know what impact Ikon is having overall plus solid RFID tracking so you know how your punters move around the mountain and thus when and where to deploy your queue wranglers, safety divides etc. DV has a bit of a problem in that its like PC Canyons- a lot of back to back to back low vert slopes so traffic inevitably converges in the middle base areas. And they probably need to find a better parking solution at Jordanelle so they can direct day visitors there. That's a majorly underutilised uplift.

 

[raytseng]

I completely agree with the main point of your post, which is that skier visits doesn't paint the whole picture. RFID gates will help them do a lot of analytics with respect to how people allocate themselves. There's a reason that Vail has RFID gates at their resorts, and has a Data Science team that analyzes the data to help make decisions about pricing, upgrades, and more.

I said i wouldn't post and wont about the topic, but this is just on the techy side so couldn't resist and is intellectually stimulating from a pure tech perspective.
All the alterra resorts are skidata as is the passcard, including the direct to lift partners, it is only logical they will be putting in skidata setup.

I also wrote in another thread, VR created their own RFID solution for epicpass/epicmix the 7or 8years back using next gen RFID protocol and frequencies and cobbling together all the disparate components together themselves in house. Cards, readers, even pass printers all separate, and most important the software was all self programmed and created to put it together. So not just buying an off the shelf solution from skidata.

The biggest tech. difference and reason is the next gen RFID VR picked could be read from feet to meters away, which is how and why the epicmix arches work to track and give stats and the handguns can read from a distance. Thinking how those arches can read all the different cards simultaneoisly and the software to filter all the multi reads out to 1 ride per person just right, is a marvel and out of Minority Report. And so VR definitely has better tracking and data stats to feed to their data scientists to crunch.

SkIdata cards technology are still proximity distance which is why you need to just about tap against the reader to get a read. They cannot be read from feet or meters away. The upper mtn gates some resorts have without bars, won't read just by passing through, a tap ia needed, they exist just deprecated or mainly if a person voluntarily wants to log their ride for a vert contest or other tracking programs.

 

[James]

I said i wouldn't post and wont about the topic, but this is just on the techy side so couldn't resist and is intellectually stimulating deom a pure tech perspective.

I also wrote in another thread, VR created their own RFID solution the 7or 8years back using next gen RFID protocol and frequencies and cobbling together all the disparate components together, cards readers and most important the software all inhouse customized and self programmed and created. And not just buying an off the shelf solution from skidata.

The biggest tech. difference and reason is the next gen RFID they picked could be read from feet to meters away, which is how and why the epicmix arches work to track and give stats and the handguns can read from a distance.

SkIdata cards technology are still proximity distance which is why you need to just about tap against the reader to get a read. They cannot be read from feet or meters away. The gates they sometimes have upper mountain without bars, wont read just by passing theough without a tap, thats mainly if a person wants to log their ride for a vert contest or something.

It's definitely better than gates, though people scanning can miss you at times. What's amazing is their IT for lesson booking is about as bad as it could be.