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Utah crowds at Deer Valley article

RJS

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I think in this case "bail" means go home when the snow is bad, the weather is bad, or the crowds get too big. A day to day issue, not bail from the resort all together. Whereas a visitor will stay on less than good days to get their money and time worth.

Yes, after re-reading the post I was quoting from you are right.

I said i wouldn't post and wont about the topic, but this is just on the techy side so couldn't resist and is intellectually stimulating deom a pure tech perspective.

I also wrote in another thread, VR created their own RFID solution the 7or 8years back using next gen RFID protocol and frequencies and cobbling together all the disparate components together, cards readers and most important the software all inhouse customized and self programmed and created. And not just buying an off the shelf solution from skidata.

The biggest tech. difference and reason is the next gen RFID they picked could be read from feet to meters away, which is how and why the epicmix arches work to track and give stats and the handguns can read from a distance.

SkIdata cards technology are still proximity distance which is why you need to just about tap against the reader to get a read. They cannot be read from feet or meters away. The upper mtn gates some resorts have without bars, won't read just by passing through, a tap ia needed, they exist just deprecated or mainly if a person voluntarily wants to log their ride for a vert contest or other trackint or something.

That's super neat! I didn't realize that Vail had this sort of RFID technology. Very smart. It would be really interesting to work on their Data Science team analyzing this data. I'm sure this gives them a ton of insight into decisions like "should we upgrade this HSQ to a six-pack", or "should we groom more or fewer steep trails to help disperse or condense skiers across these slopes", or so many other questions. This stuff is the future.
 

raytseng

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Agreed. I updated my prev post to clear it up a bit.
The way those arches work is straight out of Minority Report, and already at least 8 years ago if not more. Either really cool or kinda scary. Still, technical respect to VR for having the guts to go out on a limb to do this in house, and to their tech team for making it work.

This was also the years though where they were giving away $100,000 grandprize PR contests, so stupid money was flying around.
 
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raytseng

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VR also have the capability to deploy extra sensors wherever they need if they need specific analysis.

Also, the final piece, in EpicMix smartphone app, they have GPS tracking there; and by using it, you better believe that data goes to Vail for tracking and analysis (perhaps anonymously).

So that sparse but whole mtn tracking data; is a perfect complement to the dense but single location data from the arches and allows for much more accurate calculation of live lift-line timings, for example.
Having even just a small percentage of fully-tracked GPS days will greatly help an analyst get the full picture of things.

Other resorts have phone apps and GPS tracking and probably their main source of detailed guest behavior data; but it is just individual sparse data and a tough job without the volume data piece.
 
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Jim McDonald

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I just want to thank @RJS and @raytseng (among others) for making this otherwise deadhorse-whacking rehash interesting and worthwhile :golfclap:
 

Seldomski

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"should we groom more or fewer steep trails to help disperse or condense skiers across these slopes"

Wow, that would be really interesting to see if they use traffic data to groom to either encourage or discourage traffic to some areas!

Also, the final piece, in EpicMix smartphone app, they have GPS tracking there; and by using it, you better believe that data goes to Vail for tracking and analysis (perhaps anonymously).

So that sparse but whole mtn tracking data; is a perfect complement to the dense but single location data from the arches and allows for much more accurate calculation of live lift-line timings, for example.

Cool, thanks for this insight. I wondered how the app was able to give estimated lift line times. The gates aren't good enough to sense that someone is standing there for 20 minutes, but the GPS on the phone would work. Basically log user location data once per minute, then send it to their server periodically.
 
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fatbob

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I also assumed that Vail would ultimately get into traffic shaping based on pushing personalised itineraries through Epic Mix. Based on a person's profile and time of day you get directed to lifts and runs you might enjoy so e.g. for Breck push people away from Peak 8 to 7 or 6.

Not necessarily all innocent. I have heard of one accident lawsuit where one party supoenaed the epic mix data to attempt to demonstrate the other was skiing too fast or had skied excessive vert and therefore was negligently tired.
 
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Started at 53

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RFID will be an eye opener for sure

On another note, why is it ok to use the terms “elitist” and “entitled” while is it not ok to use terms like Ikon lowlife or pass scum?

The later two I’ve never used, but the two in quotes have been in this very thread!

I for one am seriously tired of the class warfare snipes in this and the other thread!

What activities and locations I choose to engage in and visit have been earned! I grew up in a house that had a value of less than $20,000, so yes I take serious exception to blanket class/economic/social statements! While most were at parties as kids I was working! While most were having fun on school breaks, I was working and never saw my friends until the first day of school in the fall. It was a choice I alone made, but now it’s nice to enjoy the benefits. It really irks me to be referred to as “entitled” and/or “elitist”.

I’ve made this point previously but with less clarity.

Just stop it!!!

If you are envious of what others may have, go out and work harder or longer.

But stop begrudging others!

If some is lucky enough to be a member of the lucky sperm club, just wish them well, but sniping is uncool!

I’m done on this thread and possibly on this site!
 

Andy Mink

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“elitist” and “entitled”
As used in this thread, I don't believe "elitist" and "entitled" have anything to do with money or class warfare. It's more of an attitude that, right or wrong, is coming from lots of people at several areas. I see it on Facebook posts for different ski areas that have ties to IKON or Epic. It has been mentioned in newspaper articles and magazine stories. And, yes, IKON/Epic pass holders have been called various names in other media. And even if names such as "IKON lowlife" aren't used in stories and articles and Facebook pages, the inference that IKON pass holders are not welcome at some areas or resorts comes through loud and clear.

If you are envious of what others may have, go out and work harder or longer.
Those who hold multi-passes are not envious. They have obviously worked hard enough to purchase said passes and have the ability to go to many of the areas covered by the passes. It is not their fault that any one specific area is on the pass and to be shamed for using the pass as intended is not something anyone should have to put up with.

We, the multi-pass holders, are not saying there isn't impact on many of the areas that are represented on the passes. But we're also not sure YET if the multi-passes are THE problem or just part of the problem. Stats need to come out before I'm willing to say, yes, IKON ruined DV or JH or any other area.
 

jdm00

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Yeah, when I think about "entitled" or "elitist" in relation to these articles and discussions, it would not be in terms of financial wherewithal. I'd assume that anyone who has an Ikon pass and can swing a trip to DV or Jackson Hole is probably doing fairly well financially. But I could see where someone complaining that "too many people are visiting X mountain and making my time there less enjoyable" might be viewed as "entitled," in the sense that someone making that complaint feels entitled to experience the particular mountain in the way that they want to. (Not saying they are entitled, just saying I could see using that word to describe a position like that.)
 

fatbob

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Yeah I don't think it's about financial wherewithal at all. I spend waaay more on skiing every winter than the $2400 season ticket price that a DV "local" spends. & yet I'll happily brownbag a lunch and stay in a cheap motel where possible because those elements of skiing aren't important to me, and what I save goes on more skiing. I've shared lifts and lunch tables in places like Whistler, Vail, Aspen and Verbier with people who were clearly very very wealthy yet interesting and inclusive and above all very keen skiers or boarders more interested in places I'd been than whether I'd paid my dues to enjoy their mountain.

Perhaps elitism is more about attitude than anything else, and no one can doubt that any Deer Valley clientele who define their preference for the resort with the boarding ban anywhere on the list have an element of it.

FTAOD, yes I am jealous of people who get to live in a mountain town, but Brexit catastrophuck permitting, I hope it to be me when I retire so it's not much more than the jealousy of any working stiff.
 
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François Pugh

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Well this is disappointing:(.
I recall years ago seeing an advertisement for Deer valley in a ski magazine and thinking, "Yeah, being pampered, and waited on hand and foot at a luxury ski vacation resort sounds like something I would enjoy doing." and adding it to my bucket list.
Next thing you'll be telling me is they don't have women with antlers working there any more.:nono:
 
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Wasatchman

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I'm with @Andy Mink in that I don't think the terms entitled or elitist used in this thread relates to class warfare.

One thing I have thought of to guage the potential impact of IKON is if we knew how much Snowbasin was up this year. Percentage wise, AltaBird and DV are up low double-digits. Anybody know what Snowbasin is up this year? Snowbasin is not on IKON, so if they are also up low double-digits then presumably it is mostly good snow year driving the traffic. If Snowbasin isn't up much in terms of traffic, then I would infer IKON was the big driver.

EDIT: someone told me today that GM at Alta said to them 15 percent of Alta mountain traffic this year was IKON.
 

KingGrump

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Been skiing WP/MJ this past week. Great spring skiing up to Tuesday. Fantastic slushy & corn. Some really creamy stuff off Pano.

Dumped on Wed. WP web site wasn't updated. Showed 0" fresh. Open Snow had the same snow report - 0". I measured 10" on the outside patio table at MJ base. Probably 14" to 16" on top. No one there. The Super Gauge 6-pack was loading with couple of skiers every other chair. Un-tracked everywhere. Fantastic day on my BMX 105. Probably what a powder day at Yellowstone club must feel like.

Thursday. Place felt like a zoo. All lots were full. Cars parked on both sides of the MJ access road all the way to US 40. That is 1-1/2 mile down from MJ base. WTF? Both WP site and Open Snow posted 21" for the last 24 hours.

Friday. 3" of fresh reported. Things are back to normal. Busy for a Friday, but not crazy. Good day. Mid-winter conditions. Still lots of fresh in the trees.

My take on this. Don't think anyone flew in for this one. From what I can tell, the locals are perfectly capable of f*ing things up by themselves without outside help.
 

Nancy Hummel

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Well, last year’s snow sucked. This year’s snow is awesome. I skied more this year than last. I am sure many people did. Many people want cheap passes, great snow and no crowds. Get real. Go enjoy the good snow and the good pass deals. No whining. Lots of wine!
 

Philpug

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I agree, the elitism at Deer Valley has nothing to do with money....sure there is extreme wealth with some of the 10K+ plus square foot homes there but I was say that in the days that I have spent there it appears that every day is retro day..I have seen some of the oldest gear at Deer Valley that rivals what I see at Mt. Rose..and if you have been to Mt. Rose, that says a lot. The elitism really has more to do with a crowd that is trying to protect the vibe of their mountain. These skiers have been thrown into a situation that they had no desire to be in let along signed up for. @Started at 53, even though he is new to the sport andeven newer to Deer Valley has adopted it as his new home, he is trying to protect it but he would be more successful nailing Jell-o to the wall. Sadly, he and Ikon pass holders are pawns in this new era of skiing. It is not going to change. People can vandalize billboards or make funny anti-Ikon stickers, it doesn't matter, it won't change anything. What we have to do is make it work, share the slopes and just get along...because if we choose not to get along, nothing it goign to change other than we won't be getting along.
 

BC.

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I agree, the elitism at Deer Valley has nothing to do with money....sure there is extreme wealth with some of the 10K+ plus foot homes there but I was say that in the days that I have spent there it appears that every day is retro day..I have seen some of the oldest gear at Deer Valley that rivals what I see at Mt. Rose..and if you have been to Mt. Rose, that says a lot. The elitism really has more to do with a crown that is trying to protect the vibe of their mountain. These skiers have been thrown into a situation that they had no desire to be in let along signed up for. @Started at 53, even though he is new to the sport andeven newer to Deer Valley has adopted it as his new home, he is trying to protect it but he would be more successful nailing Jell-o to the wall. Sadly, he and Ikon pass holders are pawns in this new era of skiing. It is not going to change. People can vandalize billboards or make funny anti-Ikon stickers, it doesn't matter, it won't change anything. What we have to do is make it work, share the slopes and just get along...because if we choose not to get along, nothing it goign to change other than we won't be getting along.

One of my favorites.....”You can’t stop the waves, but you can learn to surf”.
 

Pat AKA mustski

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I won't repeat what others have said ... I hope ... but there have always been the very wealthy enjoying this sport right alongside the "brown baggers." As far as I remember, only at super ritzy resorts (Aspen for example) could you really tell the difference. I will make a prediction here: pretty much every intermediate skier in the nation (I include myself) has heard about the amazing groomers at Deer Valley. It is the first year of the Ikon pass and it was a heck of a good deal, so lots of people bought it thinking that it will pay for itself in one week of skiing at one of the anchor resorts. Next year, will be much closer to what is considered normal traffic at DV. I did not go to Deer Valley this year - or even Utah - because I have already skied there. I went places that I had not been before. I'll be honest. I doubt I will ever go to Deer Valley again. It's not that I didn't enjoy it, but it's not even top 5 of the places I have skied and there are way too many ski resorts I have yet to visit. Entitled in this context is the belief that because a local lives near by or buys a season pass, he/she has more right to the mountain than the rest of the world. But it is a business that sells day tickets in a capitalist economy. It's for sale every day, so the belief that a passholder is in some way special - sorry, but no. That is simply fantasy. Also, consider, that those who buy Ikon passes are also technically "season pass holders" somewhere. We share our home resorts also.
 
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Wasatchman

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I won't repeat what others have said ... I hope ... but there have always been the very wealthy enjoying this sport right alongside the "brown baggers." As far as I remember, only at super ritzy resorts (Aspen for example) could you really tell the difference. I will make a prediction here: pretty much every intermediate skier in the nation (I include myself) has heard about the amazing groomers at Deer Valley. It is the first year of the Ikon pass and it was a heck of a good deal, so lots of people bought it thinking that it will pay for itself in one week of skiing at one of the anchor resorts. Next year, will be much closer to what is considered normal traffic at DV. I did not go to Deer Valley this year - or even Utah - because I have already skied there. I went places that I had not been before. I'll be honest. I doubt I will ever go to Deer Valley again. It's not that I didn't enjoy it, but it's not even top 5 of the places I have skied and there are way too many ski resorts I have yet to visit. Entitled in this context is the belief that because a local lives near by or buys a season pass, he/she has more right to the mountain than the rest of the world. But it is a business that sells day tickets in a capitalist economy. It's for sale every day, so the belief that a passholder is in some way special - sorry, but no. That is simply fantasy. Also, consider, that those who buy Ikon passes are also technically "season pass holders" somewhere. We share our home resorts also.

Agree with your points. While I agree that I have no more right to ski my local mountains as anyone else, I do think IKON is degrading the experience. It's like anything, there is a price that has to be paid for a "cheap" good. I don't think my attitude that IKON is degrading the experience has to do with elitism or entitlement as much as I don't like the business decision. I'm disappointed with the business decision (and yes I do understand why they would make it). I'm disappointed anti-trust laws in this country in general are lax in my opinion and allow way more industry consolidation than I think should be allowed. I ask people don't take my opinions personally as much as it is that I don't like the business decision. Maybe I am entitled, but as I said, I'd like to think it's that I simply don't like what the business decision is doing to the experience. I think many misconstrue the dislike for the business decision as dislike to them and other tourists and that's unfortunate.

Stuff like this isn't new to skiing either. There was/is the whole debate about Wal-Mart, with low prices forcing out mom and pops, selling cheap imported goods, and paying low wages to employees, etc.
 
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