Utah crowds at Deer Valley article

[Wasatchman]

https://www.parkrecord.com/news/bus...-valley-resort-wants-to-better-manage-crowds/

Interesting article that touches discussion/argument on crowds at Deer Valley that popped up in other threads.

Seems like DV management is aware of the issue (they'd have to be tone deaf not to be based on the complaints I have heard).

The article suggests management wants to do something about it but doesn't really say what. RFID lift tickets that is mentioned in the article doesn't really seem to be a notable solution to me, so we will see.

They had some interesting data points on the so called skier cap for those that are interested as well.

Ran into some DV employees today and they didn't have nice things to say about Alterra. Their perspective is that most employees are not happy about the changes under Alterra, and that DV is no longer the premium resort it used to be.

My perspective on the general consensus of PC locals is that Alterra isn't any better than Vail Corp.

 

[James]

8,500 people in a day is the limit? Weve had twice that on a much much smaller mountain.

But the counting is guesstimating at best, Trumpian at worst.
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As for the cap on the amount of skiers allowed on the mountain, Reardon said it can be difficult to determine an exact number when counting skiers at the resort. Typically, the resort combines anecdotal information from workers on the mountain, past data from visitation numbers and the quantity of day passes sold in order to count skiers.

This year, the calculation included the amount of Ikon Pass holders who were required to stop at the ticket office to get their passes scanned for the day. Ikon Pass holders have a limited amount of days at the resort. Deer Valley season pass holders are allowed to access the lifts without checking in.

Reardon said without RFID gates that scan every guest's pass before they get on a ski lift, the exact number of skiers at the resort can get skewed. She said Deer Valley realized the importance of RFID gates, which use radio-frequency to scan ski passes, after seeing the consistently large crowds this season.

The resort plans to install RFID gates in the summer.
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I'll say that having had both rfid gates and hand held rfid/bar code scanners, the hand held is far superior. Also allows for paper bar code tickets. Gates get clogged as one of a group gets rejected, just stands there, clogs that lane, then the rest block other lanes.

 

[Paul S.]

"Trumpian"?

 

[raytseng]

the clogging is easily addressed by staff of which dv is pretty much on top of. i dont think itll be an issue there.

If they're in Alterra theyll be using SKIDATA setups and will likely be same gates you see at other alterra resorts with the pedestals/tablets for staff to control and manually handle. As long as they put enough ppl on the tablets there will not be the backups. Its when the tablet person is taking a break or having a side conversation is when you get clogs when they dont open the gate to pull the person over.

Also its on head lifties job to think through and smartly position the gates; and come up with the corral setups so there is enough space before and after the gate to handle the mistakes whilst making sure the queue stays flowing and full chairs, with different layouts depending on how much staff they will have that day, and expected loads.

 

[raytseng]

Definitely i will say there was about a 15min line to get my ikon pass ticket on a Feb Sat at 9am so there were Ikon effect. direct to lift will immediately kill off those morning ticket lines and free at least 30 manhours per day of labor up

But part of that was the tellers weren't the most tech savy and seemed slow on the computer and typing/mouse work, plus it seemed every visitor wanted to chat it up with the tellers with smalltalk, taking more time, which made the process feel longer and more excruciating then perhaps true numbers would reflect.

 

[fatbob]

They don't count? In the 21st century? Was this a business or a member's club. How did they even know when they hit the 8500 cap?

Groomy resort in large urban catchment finally takes its fair share of visitors and the sky falls in? Just bad management combined with overprivileged expectations.

If I had to guess I'd bet that a fair number of DV employees historically had a fairly easy ride if the slopes were as empty as the locals claimed.

 

[cantunamunch]

Funny how there are no articles on IKON balancing out skier numbers in shoulder season.

 

[HardDaysNight]

They don't count? In the 21st century? Was this a business or a member's club. How did they even know when they hit the 8500 cap?

Of course they didn’t know when they hit whatever cap happened to be the one du jour. Not really knowing how many skiers there were on any given day did not, however, dissuade Colleen from stating authoritatively that skier visits were up 12% over last year. No one actually knows what the numbers were and never will.

Apropos of “business or a member’s club”, Edgar Stern explicitly intended it to be more of the latter. That’s why it didn’t used to be like the north-east shithole in another thread where 14,000 skiers are stuffed into 150 acres. And why a season pass is $2400 and day tickets $180. We’ll see if that dynamic is sustainable. For myself, I’ll continue to slum it at PCMR and hope that the respite we enjoyed from out-of-control crowds continues next season.

 

[New2]

They don't count? In the 21st century? Was this a business or a member's club. How did they even know when they hit the 8500 cap?
Groomy resort in large urban catchment finally takes its fair share of visitors and the sky falls in? Just bad management combined with overprivileged expectations.
If I had to guess I'd bet that a fair number of DV employees historically had a fairly easy ride if the slopes were as empty as the locals claimed.

Good skiing at Deer Valley is a scarce good, so there needs to be some sort of mechanism to distribute and preserve it. Previous management used price as the primary tool for balancing supply and demand, which resulted in a pretty efficient distribution--those who valued good skiing at DV most highly paid and got it; those who valued it less didn't pay and didn't get it.

Alterra kept the exorbitant pricing structure pretty much intact, and then gave away another 100k skier days or something to propel their Ikon product. That meant that the traditional customers who were paying high prices were getting a lower-quality experience than they'd come to expect. Hence, anger.

Alterra's gamble is that they can get away with using DV to turbocharge their Ikon products without doing lasting harm to the DV brand. Plenty of goodwill value was baked into their purchase price for DV; they went ahead and made a decision to burn some because they saw more benefit for Ikon than likely cost. Totally rational business decision--but don't blame the customers who got the short end of the bait-and-switch here for being upset.

 

[fatbob]

Fwiw I skied DV for the first and possibly only time the weekend before Xmas as a lower class Ikon passholder. Wasn't very busy at all for a holiday week, most lifts were ski straight on more or less. The skiing was ok hence I went back for a second day but I'd say it would hardly make the top 40 of best places I've skied. Not as much terrain open as they could have with a bit more proactive attitude and too many overcocky mediocre skiers on the groomers.

Customers didn't get bait and switch - the Alterra deal was obviously done before they needed to lay down for season passes or their vakay week. To me it was a bit of a novelty ( and a handy easy am drive from Evanston) but I certainly wouldn't weep if I never got Ikon days there again.

 

[Andy Mink]

I bet the lift lines were short today. Sorry, had to.

 

[raytseng]

Agree i think they are holding the cards close, because I also felt my visit year 1 it is a bit of a novelty for the ikonpass/mc type core skier compared to even the other options in slc, vibe included. By year2 the ikonpassholders may not go back to DV now that they've seen what its avout.

 

[Wasatchman]

Of course they didn’t know when they hit whatever cap happened to be the one du jour. Not really knowing how many skiers there were on any given day did not, however, dissuade Colleen from stating authoritatively that skier visits were up 12% over last year. No one actually knows what the numbers were and never will.

Apropos of “business or a member’s club”, Edgar Stern explicitly intended it to be more of the latter. That’s why it didn’t used to be like the north-east shithole in another thread where 14,000 skiers are stuffed into 150 acres. And why a season pass is $2400 and day tickets $180. We’ll see if that dynamic is sustainable. For myself, I’ll continue to slum it at PCMR and hope that the respite we enjoyed from out-of-control crowds continues next season.

I refuse to buy an Alta or Snowbird pass with the extra crowds due to IKON and no reciprocal benefit.

So I can't imagine paying $2,400 for a season pass at DV and seeing all the IKONers getting free days. I'll continue to slum it with you at PCMR and/or getting the plain IKON pass.

I would think season pass sales at DV are going to suffer, but who knows.

 

[Andy Mink]

IKONers getting free days

No, not free. IKONers paid for a product and that is part of the deal.

I saw an article on PCMR and the folks there are just as pissed about Epic as DVers are about IKON, maybe mores. I'm with @raytseng in that, being the first year, it was a novelty or bucket list item for many. Throw in the banner snow year and the crowds were big. Maybe not so much next year.

 

[Started at 53]

Who would have thought that the numbers were up this year?

I’m shocked

We will be purchasing season passes again, but after a full season of skiing DV, we know where to go and what hours to get the best out of the day.

Bottom line, DV is not the same anymore post Alterra purchase

 

[TheArchitect]

Do we really need another thread with people bitching about Ikon and DV? Haven't we beaten that horse to death twice over?

 

[Started at 53]

Do we really need another thread with people bitching about Ikon and DV? Haven't we beaten that horse to death twice over?

Many did not like or believe those of us on the mountain, now are we not going to believe an employee?

Numbers were way up, they are admitting 12% without even knowing the numbers, sounds like 12% was a guess

 

[James]

Deer Valley should ban skis over 95mm! If you can't ski pow on those, good.

 

[raytseng]

yea but you need to weigh any increase against a benchmark considering conditions.
That's like saying my mutual fund is down 12% but if the SP500 is down 14% you are actually doing better than the market.

The guessing at numbers probably has to do with people getting multiday tickets and perhaps not using all of them; and/or season pass holders getting on without being formally counted and waved through visually.
Whereas scans will really lock down and give consistent numbers. Still it's just a fudge factor and the fudged numbers probably close enough.


The whole world is changing, there are 7.7Billion people on earth now with same resources.
I think you may be taking one out of Thanos's book that you need to dust half the people in order to to be like what it was.
Although clever people also point out why is Thanos stuck thinking so much in the box, why didn't he just double all the resources instead to get the same result? Standard rate of population growth would undo his work in about 20-30 years anyway, so maybe the actuary's plot for Avengers Endgame that the population just re-populates after 20years.

 

[Wasatchman]

yea but you need to weigh any increase against a benchmark considering conditions.
That's like saying my mutual fund is down 12% but if the SP500 is down 14% you are actually doing better than the market.

The guessing at numbers probably has to do with people getting multiday tickets and perhaps not using all of them; and/or season pass holders getting on without being formally counted and waved through visually.
Whereas scans will really lock down and give consistent numbers. Still it's just a fudge factor and the fudged numbers probably close enough.


The whole world is changing, there are 7.7Billion people on earth now with same resources.
I think you may be taking one out of Thanos's book that you need to dust half the people in order to to be like what it was.
Although clever people also point out why is Thanos stuck thinking so much in the box, why didn't he just double all the resources instead to get the same result? Standard rate of population growth would undo his work in about 20-30 years anyway, so maybe the actuary's plot for Avengers Endgame that the population just re-populates after 20years.

Yeah, humanity is pretty much doomed if you believe in the estimate that the earth can only sustain 15 billion people with any sort of quality of life.

I was estimating 100 years tops until doomsday or a major apocalypse, but then Alterra came along and I've had to revise that estimate down to about 80 years.