Compare IKON vs Mountain Collective

[dbostedo]

At the Gathering, @dbostedo and others said the MCP was still a much better deal for them. Can anyone explain why? The only reason I can think of is Taos....

That was the primary reason. I want to do another Ski Week at Taos, and the MCP becomes the better option. It's likely for me that I'll do 6 days at Taos, and 6 at Big Sky. The MCP then gives me 10 days of skiing for $839, as your math shows.

 

[Pumba]

Okay, that’s what I figured. Still torn between the passes, even though I said I’d do the ikon base. I still have a few weeks to decide....

 

[David]

Well the small resorts do this, but the financials speak for themselves and a couple bad years and they go out of business.

Turns out the general public doesn't want to pay reasonable rates at the window but instead wants those sweet sweet relativelycheap multiresort passes;

Cheap? I have yet to find one that will save me money for my 2 trips a year...

 

[Philpug]

How about getting rid of all these multi resort passes and just charge a resonable rate at the window?

What is "reasonable"? Not to be smart but what is? Personally, I prefer season passes, it gives me the option of going to the resort for just a few hours and not worry if I got my moneys worth, even at a "reasonable" window price.

@Pumba mentioned what is a better value, well depending on the person and needs, all of the passes are better values. I think we are in the golden age of ski resort access, dollar for dollar and what ou get for access, the Ikon and Epic pass options cannot be beat.

 

[ADKmel]

I've been grappling with what pass to buy for next season: MCP vs. Ikon Base. At the Gathering, @dbostedo and others said the MCP was still a much better deal for them. Can anyone explain why? The only reason I can think of is Taos....FYI, I am terrible at math and this post is going to be stream-of-consciousness style....

We are both planning on doing Ski Weeks at Taos and attending the Gathering next season. If I were to go for the MCP again, I'd estimate having to pay approx. 220 out of pocket for my 6 days at Taos (2 "free" days from MCP + 4 half-price days, assuming the daily full price lift ticket will be 110)...I would put my bonus 3rd day toward Big Sky, which I assume will be the more expensive ticket, estimating 140 for full price day ticket. At this rate, I'd have to pay between 140-210 out of pocket for the Gathering, depending on if I ski 5 or 6 days. So, 409+220+210 = $839

If I go with the Ikon, I'd be paying for Taos all out-of-pocket, approx 510 for 6 days. So 599+510 = $1109

The Ikon will be more expensive for me, assuming I do the Taos ski week....But I think I am still leaning towards the Ikon Base.

Part of me was anti Ikon, because it looks really enticing, only if you live near one of the unlimited resorts and/or have endless vacation days and financial resources to use your 5 days at a couple of the limited resorts. My thinking was that the Ikon would force me to spend more money in the end - higher pass price, more airfare, and longer lodging durations.

HOWEVER, what I think has changed my mind about the Ikon is the fact that you can use it for "unlimited" spring skiing at Squaw/Alpine and Mammoth, starting on April 9th of this year. I plan on a week or so in California in early April, say 6 days of skiing. I still have one day at Squaw/Alpine on my MCP and both my Mammoth days on my MCP. If I buy the Ikon, I'll be able to put 3 days on it (approximate value - at least 225)....If it snows more in CA, perhaps even more! .....The "unlimited" Tahoe days are what I believe make it a pretty good value for me. Full disclosure - I get free housing, ground transportation, and food when in Tahoe, since my parents are in Truckee and still like to treat me like a baby when I visit...For my Tahoe trips, I'll only have to pay for airfare.

In addition to the trips listed above, I will probably plan 1-2 week long trips at other destinations and use a couple days at the East Coast resorts....If I had a car, I think the Ikon would increase in value, as I could more easily take advantage of the East Coast benefits.


Thanks for taking part in my meandering ski-pass-thoughts. Does my thinking make sense? Is the Ikon the better value considering the above?

k

You sound like me..I too love the Taos ski week.. so..throw this into your mix.. Taos has a $350 midweek pass that also gives you 1/2 off at all the MCP MTs.
I'm thinking IKON and Taos Card..

I agree, if you live close to an unlimited Mt. the IKON is a no brainer.. for us East coasters that go west to ski but only 5 Days at east Mts (the unlimited Mts in the East are very far for me)


These passes are making us plan WAY in advance

 

[fatbob]

What is "reasonable"? Not to be smart but what is? Personally, I prefer season passes, it gives me the option of going to the resort for just a few hours and not worry if I got my moneys worth, even at a "reasonable" window price.

@Pumba mentioned what is a better value, well depending on the person and needs, all of the passes are better values. I think we are in the golden age of ski resort access, dollar for dollar and what ou get for access, the Ikon and Epic pass options cannot be beat.

Golden age for serious skiers who live either local to a covered area or have a decent travel budget and time available.

Less so for tourists, casual skiers and even maybe drive up families who naively think they might be able to try out the sport for around $100 a day. I suspect no one can ever measure the families that don't ever take that first lesson or lift and the opportunity cost to the industry of those kids lost forever.

 

[Talisman]

Less so for tourists, casual skiers and even maybe drive up families who naively think they might be able to try out the sport for around $100 a day. I suspect no one can ever measure the families that don't ever take that first lesson or lift and the opportunity cost to the industry of those kids lost forever.

These families could go to a smaller "feeder" resort and pay about half to learn how to ski or snowboard on the bunny hill and easier trails. Skiing has always been expensive once the aerial lifts were installed. There are still a few deals out there for smaller resorts CO Gems card comes to mind, but I get your point about cost.

The ski industry in one of the few I can think of that markets cost breaks to insiders. For example auto manufacturers offer deals and special financing to first time buyers.

 

[mdf]

Are there any nearby deadlines? I'm putting off the mental effort of optimizing my purchase(s), but don't want to wait too long and have prices go up.

 

[David]

What is "reasonable"? Not to be smart but what is? Personally, I prefer season passes, it gives me the option of going to the resort for just a few hours and not worry if I got my moneys worth, even at a "reasonable" window price.

@Pumba mentioned what is a better value, well depending on the person and needs, all of the passes are better values. I think we are in the golden age of ski resort access, dollar for dollar and what ou get for access, the Ikon and Epic pass options cannot be beat.

At home i have a season pass as well. But when i go on vacation j want to be able to afford to ski every day. I'd pay around $100 to ski a major resort but nowhere near the current rate of $175 or $180. And staying with family or friends means no discount with lodging.

 

[DanoT]

At home i have a season pass as well. But when i go on vacation j want to be able to afford to ski every day. I'd pay around $100 to ski a major resort but nowhere near the current rate of $175 or $180. And staying with family or friends means no discount with lodging.

Seems like the MCP with 2 "free" days and then 50% off meets your criteria.

For me, the 50% off senior priced day tickets could be a deciding factor, or it may end up whether I want to ski in Colorado (Ikon) or Utah (MCP) in addition to my already planned Montana trip for 2019 at Big Sky, Bridger Bowl, and also Whitefish which is free for me at age 70.

Right now I am leaning toward paying the extra $190 for the Base Ikon and then spending a bunch of time in Summit County, Co. as well as Montana and JH. Also it seems unlikely for Colorado to have a second poor snow year immediately following 2018.

 

[RJS]

At home i have a season pass as well. But when i go on vacation j want to be able to afford to ski every day. I'd pay around $100 to ski a major resort but nowhere near the current rate of $175 or $180. And staying with family or friends means no discount with lodging.

Alta, Solitude and Brighton all have day tickets at or under $101. If you buy ahead, especially for multiple days, you can often get < $100/day at resorts whose tickets cost more than $100.

@DanoT makes a great point about the Mountain Collective Pass (MCP). If you use the 3rd day in Utah, you can ski 7 days for $58/day. A day ticket at Alta costs $101, so even if you skied all 7 days only at Alta with the MCP and used your 3rd day there, you would be paying $87/day.

If you're willing to plan head and/or only ski at mountains on the passes, you can save a lot of money by using them, even if you're going planning on doing a week or two of destination skiing.

 

[fatbob]

I think we here all get the tricks of the trade to get the daily cost of skiing down. My earlier point was that the never evers and walk-ups get royally shafted relative to us because they don't know about buying passes before deadlines, low breakeven points on a season pass etc etc. It's great that there are so many of them that they subsidise the cost of skiing for the rest of us but I don't think it is necessarily long term healthy for the sport.

And when they decline as a population to bleed, the rest of us will get the wick turned up on us whether that's Alterra, the Evil Empire , Boyne or whoever.

 

[Jacob]

I think we here all get the tricks of the trade to get the daily cost of skiing down. My earlier point was that the never evers and walk-ups get royally shafted relative to us because they don't know about buying passes before deadlines, low breakeven points on a season pass etc etc. It's great that there are so many of them that they subsidise the cost of skiing for the rest of us but I don't think it is necessarily long term healthy for the sport.

And when they decline as a population to bleed, the rest of us will get the wick turned up on us whether that's Alterra, the Evil Empire , Boyne or whoever.

I think this is easy for people like you and me to see, because we've skied a number of days in both NA and Europe, so we've seen the difference in the two price models.

Another possibility, although it's less likely, is that a decline in destination skiers will lead to a price war in a drive to win over the few who remain.

 

[Jacob]

What is "reasonable"? Not to be smart but what is?

Whenever I go to a large resort in Europe, my lift pass usually works out at $45-55 per day. And, I don't have to order online 6 months in advance or anything. That's just the walk-up rate. The most expensive lift tickets in Europe are always in Zermatt, and even those max out at about $75 per day.

If a ski area in Europe that has 80+ interconnected lifts and 6000+ ft of vertical can sell lift tickets at the window for $50 a day, I think it shouldn't be too unreasonable for a North American resort to offer tickets for $75 or less.

 

[fatbob]

I think this is easy for people like you and me to see, because we've skied a number of days in both NA and Europe, so we've seen the difference in the two price models.

Another possibility, although it's less likely, is that a decline in destination skiers will lead to a price war in a drive to win over the few who remain.

I'm sure the logic behind the Alterra play is that there is a potentially limitless supply of price insensitive destination skiers where "If you build it sufficiently upscle they will come". I don't know how limitless that supply is - I assume the bright folk at Alterra have the demographics and the Ikon pass is enough to hook in those others who are leery of gouging but don't mind spending $$$ on upscale accomodation and F&B.

 

[DanoT]

Whenever I go to a large resort in Europe, my lift pass usually works out at $45-55 per day. And, I don't have to order online 6 months in advance or anything. That's just the walk-up rate. The most expensive lift tickets in Europe are always in Zermatt, and even those max out at about $75 per day.

If a ski area in Europe that has 80+ interconnected lifts and 6000+ ft of vertical can sell lift tickets at the window for $50 a day, I think it shouldn't be too unreasonable for a North American resort to offer tickets for $75 or less.

When comparing the ski business in Europe vs. North America you need to consider the closeness of the European resorts to each other and to their customers. I am guessing that there are more people who live in cold climates and are skiers in Europe than N.A. and they live closer to the mountains with easier access and get more annual vacations than in N.A.

In short, when you have more customers you can charge less per customer.

 

[Beartown]

Crested Butte, Okemo and Mt Sunapee join the Epic Pass!!!

 

[Jacob]

I'm sure the logic behind the Alterra play is that there is a potentially limitless supply of price insensitive destination skiers where "If you build it sufficiently upscle they will come". I don't know how limitless that supply is - I assume the bright folk at Alterra have the demographics and the Ikon pass is enough to hook in those others who are leery of gouging but don't mind spending $$$ on upscale accomodation and F&B.

The problem with that model is that, if your big spenders are flying in from other parts of the country and spending a full week at your destination resort, then you eventually have to start competing with European resorts. I think we're already reaching the point where it's slightly cheaper for someone near one of the big hubs (Chicago, NYC, Atlanta, etc.) to spend a week in the Alps than it is in quite a few places in the Rockies.

If your clientele starts frequenting European resorts, then an American resort's idea of upscale shopping and F&B might not cut it anymore.

 

[RJS]

Crested Butte, Okemo and Mt Sunapee join the Epic Pass!!!

I'll have to check if there's another thread for this announcement, but this just made things really interesting for this Boston-based skier ...

7 days at Sunapee, 7 days at Okemo, unlimited days at Stowe, and then potential trips to Telluride, Whistler, Park City, Crested Butte, and Kicking Horse? That sounds pretty sweet to me.

 

[raytseng]

I think we here all get the tricks of the trade to get the daily cost of skiing down. My earlier point was that the never evers and walk-ups get royally shafted relative to us because they don't know about buying passes before deadlines, low breakeven points on a season pass etc etc. It's great that there are so many of them that they subsidise the cost of skiing for the rest of us but I don't think it is necessarily long term healthy for the sport.

And when they decline as a population to bleed, the rest of us will get the wick turned up on us whether that's Alterra, the Evil Empire , Boyne or whoever.

Well the theory is they only get shafted once; and so convert into a passholder for next year and then you are locked in year after year. So there is some percentage of conversion into More Skiing out of fear of loss/fear of shafted again. There are many people on the lifts from UK, AUS or NZ who have their epicpass just for their 1week holiday.
If you fully bought in and did slopeside even at VR or another alterra resort, there usually are ticket packages deals that subsidize the lift ticket, so that the first time

The high price is not only about gouging the 1 time tripper; but equally the stick to keep existing passholders from turning back to day-passers and to continue skiing year after year(or at least continue giving $700 each year).

Agree that the never-evers is the most at risk in the model; but things like Alpine's $99 beginner lesson package show it doesn't have to always be evil.
The drug model to make "first one free" to hook you should be in play in the business strategy; but the issue is it's hard to enforce anonymous people from doing multiple "first ones", other than beginners restricted lift tickets and things of that sort.