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Compare IKON vs Mountain Collective

Pumba

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It warms my heart to see so much enthusiasm for Taos. Unfortunately, we will not be here next season.
Mamie is hell bent on maxing out the Ikon pass on her Mother of all Road Trip next season.
There is room in the car if anyone wants to tag along. May be a bit cramped though.

Awwww man!!!!!...I can never get it right! sandy and I have already paid for our air bnb, which is hopefully fine with us moving our reservation to next season, so we will represent nyc in your absence, I guess....
 

mdf

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It warms my heart to see so much enthusiasm for Taos. Unfortunately, we will not be here next season.
Mamie is hell bent on maxing out the Ikon pass on her Mother of all Road Trip next season.
There is room in the car if anyone wants to tag along. May be a bit cramped though.

Please let your stalkers know your itinerary as soon as possible.
 

KingGrump

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We may roll through Taos at the last two weeks pf their season to pick up our 2020 senior passes. Yes we are that old.
 

Jacob

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Your premise is exchange rate dependent

At the rate that prices in US resorts are rising, it won't be for long.

In 2012, walk-up prices at Vail hit $129/day. In 2016, it was $175. This year, it's $199 at the window.

I can't find any historical information on food prices, but I wouldn't be surprised if they rose at a similar rate.
 
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ADKmel

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At the rate that prices in US resorts are rising, it won't be for long.

In 2012, walk-up prices at Vail hit $129/day. In 2016, it was $175. This year, it's $199 at the window.

I can't find any historical information on food prices, but I wouldn't be surprised if they rose at a similar rate.

I paid 13$ for a baked potatow/cheese at Highlands 2 years ago.. Probably 20$ now LOL
 

ADKmel

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@mdf, When you do knuckle down, please post your calculations here!

@ADKmel , I am this close to following you with the taos midweek and the ikon base...just hope they get snow next year....

This sport/hobby is just too expensive for us regular people with average finances...


They GOTTA Get snow don't they?? To get skunked 2 years in a row. I sure hope not. I was there last year and it was FULL On. Even this year we got 10" while I was there, we skied on man made groomers that were nice. .
 
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fatbob

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But you can't get more customers by making things difficult and expensive. Also, price per customer only makes sense up to a point. A lift ticket in Vail is over 3 times as much as one in Val d'Isere, even though the ski area is significantly smaller. I'd understand 50% more, maybe even 100%. But a 200% price difference seems a bit unreasonable.

Also, the Alps aren't as close to the major population centers as you'd think, and the climate of those population centers isn't any colder than the northeastern part of the US, let alone the Midwest.

The US actually has a very large number of people who live close enough to ski areas to realistically get into the sport. But, US ski resorts don't do as good a job attracting new customers. I think they did a decent job in the '70's and '80's, but now their business model seems to be to squeeze as much as possible out of their existing customers, which doesn't seem like a good plan in the long run.

Indeed. Having skied places like Vail, Breckenridge, Snowbird, JH, Squaw, Heavenly they certainly seem to have greater lift lines on average than most Euro ski areas even the "prestige" ones so in the skiing population/lift I think the US at the "big" resorts we are talking about probably come out ahead. Now those lift lines might be greatly distorted by cheap season passes etc but as a whole I don't buy the fewer US skiers per resort argument as a justification for extraordinarily high window prices. The only justifiable difference is ski patrol rescue costs built into a US ski ticket but that's a delta of maybe $1 on a pooled risk basis.

Europe no doubt has a bigger pool of skiers but by and large they aren't weekend warriors and take 6 day trips once a year, flying or driving to the slopes. If you take say Reno and Innsbruck as comparable cities in terms of proximity to a number of resorts then you probably also have a similar flying time from Northern Europe as you do from most if not all of the West coast. What's the difference that makes it feasible for a family of 4 to do a drive up self catered week for say 2000 Euro incl lessons, rentals and pass where similar in the US would be significantly more?
 

Jacob

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Indeed. Having skied places like Vail, Breckenridge, Snowbird, JH, Squaw, Heavenly they certainly seem to have greater lift lines on average than most Euro ski areas even the "prestige" ones so in the skiing population/lift I think the US at the "big" resorts we are talking about probably come out ahead. Now those lift lines might be greatly distorted by cheap season passes etc but as a whole I don't buy the fewer US skiers per resort argument as a justification for extraordinarily high window prices. The only justifiable difference is ski patrol rescue costs built into a US ski ticket but that's a delta of maybe $1 on a pooled risk basis.

Europe no doubt has a bigger pool of skiers but by and large they aren't weekend warriors and take 6 day trips once a year, flying or driving to the slopes. If you take say Reno and Innsbruck as comparable cities in terms of proximity to a number of resorts then you probably also have a similar flying time from Northern Europe as you do from most if not all of the West coast. What's the difference that makes it feasible for a family of 4 to do a drive up self catered week for say 2000 Euro incl lessons, rentals and pass where similar in the US would be significantly more?

I think the answer is the consolidation of resort ownership in North America. I don't think the owners are raising prices because they have to in order to cover costs. I think it's because they can due to the decreasing amount of competition.

That's why I think prices will plateau if a significant number of destination skiers start flying to Europe instead of going west. But, I don't know if they'll ever really do that in large numbers.
 

Started at 53

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At the rate that prices in US resorts are rising, it won't be for long.

In 2012, walk-up prices at Vail hit $129/day. In 2016, it was $175. This year, it's $199 at the window.

I can't find any historical information on food prices, but I wouldn't be surprised if they rose at a similar rate.

I posted a selfie on the wall in Vail before I left so they could get a good look at me, because they will NEVER see me again. :roflmao:

I think the answer is the consolidation of resort ownership in North America. I don't think the owners are raising prices because they have to in order to cover costs. I think it's because they can due to the decreasing amount of competition.

That's why I think prices will plateau if a significant number of destination skiers start flying to Europe instead of going west. But, I don't know if they'll ever really do that in large numbers.

Supply and Demand? Eco 101
 

LKLA

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At the rate that prices in US resorts are rising, it won't be for long.

In 2012, walk-up prices at Vail hit $129/day. In 2016, it was $175. This year, it's $199 at the window.

I can't find any historical information on food prices, but I wouldn't be surprised if they rose at a similar rate.

That is what happens when you base your business on so-called recurring revenue, aka season passes. When people can ski all they want at "bargain" prices then you have to offset that by increasing prices at other revenue streams - window tickets, food, lessons, rentals, retail, lodging, lockers, parking,...

Trust me, one way or another, you will end up paying for it :)
 

raytseng

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i posted already but the high window prices is not supply and demand economics. Its artificially high as a stick to push the season pass roster. You get burnt once, then you go season pass.
The food and beverage pricing is also not priced to offsetting decreases in pass+dayticket revenue (lift revenue) The suggestion you are offering is that low pass prices has dumped the price per skier day, so they make it up on food. This is not true. It is offset because so many passholders are buying out of fear. Even though some skiers get a 100 day season, many end up only going a few days, so total Lift revenue still goes up. The difference is all those days are spent at the same resortfamily and they are locked in. They food and beverage they can tweak based on its own economics.
You can look at MTNs annual reports. they have it broken down to that exact stat they call ETP which is lift revenue divided by skiers visits. This ETP sn't decreasing. It slowly increases a few dollars each year and actually increased from 58 to 67 over the last 5years. Going back further to the beginning of epicpass shows the same trend that etp goes up a few $ each year.
 
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LKLA

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i posted already but the high window prices is not supply and demand economics. Its artificially high as a stick to push the season pass roster. You get burnt once, then you go season pass.
The food and beverage pricing is also not priced to offsetting decreases in pass+dayticket revenue. The suggestion that low pass prices has dumped the price per skier day, so they make it up on food is not true. It is offset because so many passholders are buying out of fear. Even though some skiers get a 100 day season, many end up only going a few days, so total Lift revenue still goes up. The difference is all those days are spent at the same resortfamily and they are locked in.
You can look at MTNs annual reports. they have it broken down. The price per skier visit isn't decreasing. It slowly increases a few dollars each year and actually increased from 58 to 67 over the last 5years.

i posted already but the high window prices is not supply and demand economics. Its artificially high as a stick to push the season pass roster. You get burnt once, then you go season pass.
Agree. Which is why either window prices will have to stabilize or pass prices will have to come up - likely both.

The food and beverage pricing is also not priced to offsetting decreases in pass+dayticket revenue. The suggestion that low pass prices has dumped the price per skier day, so they make it up on food is not true.
As someone who works in the industry I can tell you that is not the case. Significant investments are being made in F&B to capture a greater share of the spend. Part of that strategy is also geared towards "offsetting" the season pass prices. F&B also helps to offset weather related volatility, as it captures revenue in situations like when folks are inside if its too cold to ski or when lifts are on wind hold. There was a saying in the movie theater business "Sell tickets for the show, sell popcorn for the dough."

It is offset because so many passholders are buying out of fear. Even though some skiers get a 100 day season, many end up only going a few days, so total Lift revenue still goes up. The difference is all those days are spent at the same resortfamily and they are locked in.
No one is buying out of fear! How can you buy a pass out of fear when just two seasons ago it cost $1,600 for a season pass at Stowe and now it costs $899 - and you can ski at a ton of other places as well? Window tickets have already priced themselves out - the same can largely be said about lessons, food....so basically the only lever left is to increase season passes. And that will continue to happen. Be it $30 or $50 every year or by re-configuring the pass offerings, it will happen. In three years most passes will be $1,199, if not higher.

You can look at MTNs annual reports. they have it broken down. The price per skier visit isn't decreasing. It slowly increases a few dollars each year and actually increased from 58 to 67 over the last 5years.
The price per skier goes up because the price of the Epic Pass has gone up AND because everything else has gone up in price as well. Visitation numbers were down this past quarter and the reason lift revenue was up was because of the increase in pass and ticket window prices. The reason overall mountain revenue was up was because of that as well as F&B and rental and lessons prices going up that more than offset single digit drop in visitation numbers.
 
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raytseng

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The point I'm trying to say is assume if they got rid of epic pass and went back to window tickets only at a reasonable $67. Bad news, your food and beverage parking etc will still be high. Food is not raised to offset lift revenue, it is its own revenue stream to be maximized.
It is the same as a sporting event or the movies or themeparks.
I suppose only if your stadium and team are losing and you are scrambling to pivot to something different then you offer $2 hot dog day and take the hit on f&b.
 

LKLA

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"The point I'm trying to say is assume if they got rid of epic pass and went back to window tickets only at a reasonable $67. Bad news, your food and beverage parking etc will still be high. Food is not raised to offset lift revenue, it is its own revenue stream to be maximized."

Absolutely!

But over the past couple of years, the biggest driver behind the steep and continued increase in everything from food to charging for parking has largely been driven to offset the pass pricing - on top of the basic concept of pricing equilibrium and input costs rising on their own and trying to preserve margins.

But, I agree with you 110% that prices are not coming down. The only area where that might happen is in window ticket prices.


Speaking of stadiums and teams - I plunked down $1,200 for three half-way decent seats to the US Open round of 16 last summer and $375 for two tickets to watch the comical Knicks play some random team this winter. Don't even ask how much they charged for a beer and a hot dog :eek:
 

raytseng

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I see your position, but I'll still disagree with you that pass revenue caused the food pricing changes, as I see it as independent revenue. I think they would've done it regardless of pass revenue just in terms of streamlining and maximizing the business as a whole.
 

DanoT

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Increased season pass sales, paid for months before the skier visit occurs, make it a lot more palatable for the pass owner to open his/her wallet for over priced food if they aren't opening their wallet for lift tickets.

Expensive lift tickets make it easy and still profitable for resorts to discount lift ticket sales to hotels who offer a Ski & Stay package. So if the hotel passes say a 20% or so lift ticket discount to the hotel guest and then discounts their room rate by a similar %, it then looks like the non pass holder hotel customer is getting a deal.

So yeah, prices will go up but only as much as the market will allow. Lift ticket and pass prices in Canada (other than Whistler) are a bargain when compared to US lift tickets because Canadians would stop skiing if they had to pay US prices.
 

raytseng

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Food in general has increased in price, as costs for food service hasn't really changed, and human costs increase.

Prime example, the six dollar burger at Hardees/CarlsJr was supposed to provide the fancy $6 restaurant burgers at a much lower price point. But now the Carls Jr Six dollar burger costs $6; while the restaurant burger is more like $10+.

I will admit, Yes all the packaged stuff has skyrocketed though and just profit.
 

albertanskigirl

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You sound like me..I too love the Taos ski week.. so..throw this into your mix.. Taos has a $350 midweek pass that also gives you 1/2 off at all the MCP MTs.
I'm thinking IKON and Taos Card..

I agree, if you live close to an unlimited Mt. the IKON is a no brainer.. for us East coasters that go west to ski but only 5 Days at east Mts (the unlimited Mts in the East are very far for me)


These passes are making us plan WAY in advance


Thanks for the tip about the midweek card at Taos, @ADKmel - I hadn't seen that. I'm considering going for a Taos Ski Week next year and was thinking of getting an MCP, but maybe the Taos midweek and a local pass is a better way to go. Then again, I won't get the Big Sky or any other days - this is a tough choice.

Do you know if Taos pass prices will go up after a certain date?
 

Pumba

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After reading more of the thread, I’m leaning more towards just the Mcp again... I forgot that Peter and I have been discussing a big trip to either the alps or japan for next year, in which case I will have neither the vacation days or money to fully take advantage of the ikon base. With Mcp, I can still do a taos week and big sky....plus, in reality, I will not be able to take full advantage of the east coast days the ikon base offers...
 

ADKmel

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I didn't see any pass raising on Taos Site or mention that it will go up.. Any Taos regular's know? @KingGrump Do you know if they raise prices?

FYI with the Taos Card you get 50% off MCP Mts - Big sky is in MCP..
Ski week is great deal and a lot of fun.
 

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