• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Why is it hard to get out of the backseat on nearly flat terrain?

skibob

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Posts
4,289
Location
Santa Rosa Fire Belt
I feel like I ski black diamonds better than green runouts because I have a hard time keeping my weight forward on relatively low angle terrain. Its not like I'm falling all the time on runouts. But I feel like I am working harder to ski more poorly on easy terrain.

I've always felt this way, but my current setup seems to accentuate the problem. Or maybe its just because I am skiing better and better on challenging terrain, so it feels worse on runouts?

When I am on steeps, I feel like I can really stomp on the toes when I need to dig in the shovel. Not so on flattish. On the flats I'm all tails.

So, the obvious answer is "just lean forward dude" to get that out of the way. I can't, not exactly. Rather, I can kind of dorsiflect and pull myself forward a little, but obviously I can maintain this for long. Or I can do the opposite. My heel doesn't really lift much out of boot, but I can put pressure on the balls of my feet this way. Which isn't really the same as "neutral" or weight forward, which I can obtain on steeps.

Anyway, here is my current setup. Fischer Progressor 13 Vacuum boots. These are great, but I do still have some slop around my very, very low volume instep. Still, best fit I've ever had. And no, they are not too big. Size 11 street shoe. Boots are 27.5. Toes are right up very snug in the toebox. But my foot is VERY low volume in the instep and heel (mol avg toe width). Ive worked some padding into the instep area and could probably improve things minutely, but I don't think this is the issue.

They were heat molded to a pretty upright stance. I had a pair of boots with adjustable forward lean in the past and felt like I had a lot of control with a more aggressive lean, but really destroyed my quads in no time. And was no better on low angle. And I am a cyclist, so conditioning is not the quad issue (although at 46, conditioning isn't what it used to be!).

I've made my own toe and heel lifts purely for experimentation sake. Butadiene styrene 6mm between the footboard and liner. Neither of these did much to affect the issue one way or the other. To be clear, I tried one and then the other, not at same time!

Bindings are Aaatack 13 demo bindings 0.5cm ahead of the line on Fischer Motive 95s. For some reason these line up either .5cm forward or back, but not right on the line. In and of itself, doesn't seem like it could be the reason though. Motives are 180 cm and I am 6'2" and 200 lbs.

I guess the only other thing to add is that I've had recent lessons with PSIA level 3 instructor and he was pretty happy with the way I looked on steeps at the end (his words "A very solid level 7, if not 8"). I don't think he really watched on the runouts and I didn't bring it up as I was focused on other things. But I don't think I am fooling myself that I am competent-ish on the steeps but still feel funky on flats.
 
Last edited:

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
got a sideways picture or video of you skiing flats? or heck a sideways picture of you skiing anywhere could help.

Lifting inside the boot is not the same as changing the boot delta. With that said forward leans and ramp are not the same thing. You need to place shims between the boot and binding to test.

Rod cyclist have rather weak quads compared to a strong skier.

My educated guess is this is combination of having a ramp/delta with your toes to low while at the same time have a forward lean that is not forward enough. Ie you need to lift your toes and have the ankle closed a little more. I can not be sure with out a visual though.
 

Eleeski

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,301
Location
San Diego / skis at Squaw Valley
Back seat skiing rocks! As long as you are in control and not falling or hurting yourself the back seat is OK with me. Maybe you look a bit dorky - own it!

I ski a lot in the back seat. I find the skis work better if I run my schizio bindings a bit forward of recommended. And I keep the tail edges sharp. I find a neutral or back stance allows quicker turns - a useful tool for one's skillset.

Eric
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
UMM back seat though out the entire turn is not quicker..... at transitions yes.
 
Thread Starter
TS
skibob

skibob

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Posts
4,289
Location
Santa Rosa Fire Belt
Where are your hands? If they are not in a ready position, it could be part of the issue. Many people get lazy and relax on the flats..it is a chance to work on things like ankle rolls and edge changes.
Nope they are definitely in the ready position. That is what if baffling. If I were laying back and riding the tails, I'd understand. I'll try to get some footage or photos this weekend.
 

Gerry Rhoades

mtcyclist rippin' again
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
563
Location
Billings, MT
How old are your boots and what kind are they? I had Tecnica Diablo Pros that had a lot of forward lean and I had a terrible time getting out of the backseat. When I got newer more upright boots I got out of the backseat pretty quickly.
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
How old are your boots and what kind are they? I had Tecnica Diablo Pros that had a lot of forward lean and I had a terrible time getting out of the backseat. When I got newer more upright boots I got out of the backseat pretty quickly.

what works for you is entirely irrelevant to anyone else,well unless that person share similar tib-femur dimenion. Upright boots are basically impossible to ski for me.

Some people needs lots of forward lean, mostly those with long femurs. For and aft alignment is not one size fits all, alignment in general is not one size fits all.

Very few people understand what is actually going and the the reality is with out video of the OP and probably on the spot shimming, he will never fix his problem.

He is extremely close to Bud though and bud should be able to straighten him out.
 
Thread Starter
TS
skibob

skibob

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Posts
4,289
Location
Santa Rosa Fire Belt
How old are your boots and what kind are they? I had Tecnica Diablo Pros that had a lot of forward lean and I had a terrible time getting out of the backseat. When I got newer more upright boots I got out of the backseat pretty quickly.
Brand new at the start of this season: Fischer Progressor 13 Vacuum, baked and molded to be more upright than most.

I've also experienced same thing, to varying degrees with Full Tilt and Dalbello Kryptons.
 
Thread Starter
TS
skibob

skibob

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Posts
4,289
Location
Santa Rosa Fire Belt
Some people needs lots of forward lean, mostly those with long femurs. For and aft alignment is not one size fits all, alignment in general is not one size fits all..

Yes, video will be coming next week and is a great point. I am definitely in the "long femur" category. My bike inseam, if you know what that is, is 34.5. Any thoughts on what it is about a long femur that benefits from more forward lean?
 

oldschoolskier

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Posts
4,288
Location
Ontario Canada
Gravity and speed mask a lot of errors. The gentle slopes don't give you room to make errors as they immediately slow you down.

Funny as it sounds it may not be an equipment issue, but possibly a technique issue.
 

Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,357
Funny as it sounds it may not be an equipment issue, but possibly a technique issue.

I agree. I am picturing rotary push-off. Perhaps pushing skis away to generate edge angles on the steeps. He might not feel like he's in the backseat even if he is. But try to get away with that at slower speeds on flatter slopes.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,983
Yes, video will be coming next week and is a great point. I am definitely in the "long femur" category. My bike inseam, if you know what that is, is 34.5. Any thoughts on what it is about a long femur that benefits from more forward lean?
Well when you stand with knees slightly bent the femurs project backwards. So the longer they are the further they project. So to not be too far back with com the tibias need to project forward more. That's my guess.
 
Thread Starter
TS
skibob

skibob

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Posts
4,289
Location
Santa Rosa Fire Belt
Well when you stand with knees slightly bent the femurs project backwards. So the longer they are the further they project. So to not be too far back with com the tibias need to project forward more. That's my guess.

That would relate to a "neutral" stance vs against the tongue or against the (back) cuff wouldn't it? That's the thing, I am neutral if there is good slope under me. But cruising on nearly flat, I can't get neutral. Its either back of the cuff or in the tongues. Like I said, I have to dorsiflex and actually pull myself forward with my feet if I am not in steeper terrain.
 
Thread Starter
TS
skibob

skibob

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Posts
4,289
Location
Santa Rosa Fire Belt
I agree. I am picturing rotary push-off. Perhaps pushing skis away to generate edge angles on the steeps. He might not feel like he's in the backseat even if he is. But try to get away with that at slower speeds on flatter slopes.
Definitely not pushing away, except in transition, ie, when I don't have edges engaged. I do know what you mean by this. I've done it to compensate when my legs are thrashed, like last friday. I rode a very fast 32 mile bike circuit on thursday (a long ride for me at that speed) and skied 10" powder on fri from 9:15 am to 3pm. Last run or two I was extending to get edge angle because it loads my hamstrings instead of my quads. But I also recognize it as an indicator that its time to call it quits. IOW, I know what you mean, but that is not generally what's happening on the steeps. Also, like I said, I spent several hours with a PSIA level 3 instructor just a few weeks ago. He didn't say I wasn't doing this, but I would assume he would say if I was.

By the way, seems counterintuitive to say that speed and steep mask bad technique. I get lazy and let my technique slip on steeps and I usually end up on the snow out of my skis.
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
qualified L3 instructor is kind of meaningless. the majority will stroke anyone egos for a tip. Plus most L3s and Ed staff r instructors are fairly clueless about alignment. I have met tons of L3 that I would never let anyone I know take lesson from.

If you are pushing away from edge to edge during the edge change that is not what we do. You want to go edge to edge while the skis travels flat via edging and balancing movements. speed and hill does mask bad technique. Even a badly initiated turn will end up balanced as the centrifugal force brings you into the outside ski but on a flat going slow a screw up take far longer to recover from.
 

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
42,940
Location
Reno, eNVy
qualified L3 instructor is kind of meaningless. the majority will stroke anyone egos for a tip. Plus most L3s and Ed staff r instructors are fairly clueless about alignment. I have met tons of L3 that I would never let anyone I know take lesson from.

If you are pushing away from edge to edge during the edge change that is not what we do. You want to go edge to edge while the skis travels flat via edging and balancing movements. speed and hill does mask bad technique. Even a badly initiated turn will end up balanced as the centrifugal force brings you into the outside ski but on a flat going slow a screw up take far longer to recover from.
This is where @bud heishman can step in and help. He truly understands alignment.
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top