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Why is it hard to get out of the backseat on nearly flat terrain?

Erik Timmerman

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Well, I am doing like everyone else here and speculating. It seems to me that if it was alignment that was at the heart of the issue, you'd feel worse on the steeps than the flats and not the other way around. Somehow it seems that so far on this forum, everything is an alignment issue. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Rotary push off can be cleverly disguised and hard to see. Just because your instructor didn't say anything doesn't mean it isn't there. What did he say?
 

markojp

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All that said, the fischer boots are very old school (lots of forward lean and ramp angle), and very soft with comparatively little return after being flexed.

...
 

James

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That would relate to a "neutral" stance vs against the tongue or against the (back) cuff wouldn't it? That's the thing, I am neutral if there is good slope under me. But cruising on nearly flat, I can't get neutral. Its either back of the cuff or in the tongues. Like I said, I have to dorsiflex and actually pull myself forward with my feet if I am not in steeper terrain.
Sounds like you can't balance in your boots. It's either resting on front of tongue or back of cuff/spine. I suppose this is a ramp angle issue.
What are the specifics of the setup? Boot model, size, year, binding.

Edit - well you're in Fischer Progressor 13 boots and Attack 13 bindings. Maybe someone could come up with delta and ramp for that.

If things "have always ben this way" then it could be technique and boots. (What was the last boot?) Can you not stay cuff neutral just going straight on flats?
 
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skibob

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Well, I am doing like everyone else here and speculating. It seems to me that if it was alignment that was at the heart of the issue, you'd feel worse on the steeps than the flats and not the other way around. Somehow it seems that so far on this forum, everything is an alignment issue. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Rotary push off can be cleverly disguised and hard to see. Just because your instructor didn't say anything doesn't mean it isn't there. What did he say?
We worked a lot on getting through the transition and committing to the next turn and letting the ski make the turn, specifically in regard to short turns on steeps. Really felt that it made a lot of progress, and he said the same. He dragged me through steep and deep, cut up and skied out off-piste to test my progress and was satisfied. And so was I. I've struggled at times in the past to get tails to release (especially flat and relatively stiff tails like on my Motive 95s). And I haven't much since.

I would be interested in somebody describing "rotary push off". Although I fear it will invoke the thread where there was a lot of discussion of whether femurs rotate in hip sockets, or spines rotate, or something like that.

As I understood "extension" on the previous page, I understood it to mean pushing yourself away from the downhill ski in order to increase edge angle. Like I said, I do notice that I do that when I get really tired in order to compensate for my lagging quads, and I take it as a signal that my day is done and get off the hill. Otherwise, no, and all the less so since my recent work with the instructor. As for "extending" in transition, I've seen a lot of disagreement over the semantics of that, with some insisting that is it exactly, and others insisting not. I get that it isn't pushing off, and I'll avoid using the word "extension" since some equate that with pushing up, but I will observe that the head comes up and the legs straighten somewhat, such as in this JF Beaulieu video, and just about any other expert video I've seen:

And that is what I am talking about. I wont call it extension.
 

bud heishman

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SkiBob I would be happy to take a look if you like! Call shop for appointment 775 323-9463 or we can make some turns at Northstar to watch you ski.

regards,
bud
 

James

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We worked a lot on getting through the transition and committing to the next turn and letting the ski make the turn, specifically in regard to short turns on steeps. Really felt that it made a lot of progress, and he said the same. He dragged me through steep and deep, cut up and skied out off-piste to test my progress and was satisfied. And so was I. I've struggled at times in the past to get tails to release (especially flat and relatively stiff tails like on my Motive 95s). And I haven't much since.

I would be interested in somebody describing "rotary push off". Although I fear it will invoke the thread where there was a lot of discussion of whether femurs rotate in hip sockets, or spines rotate, or something like that.

As I understood "extension" on the previous page, I understood it to mean pushing yourself away from the downhill ski in order to increase edge angle. Like I said, I do notice that I do that when I get really tired in order to compensate for my lagging quads, and I take it as a signal that my day is done and get off the hill. Otherwise, no, and all the less so since my recent work with the instructor. As for "extending" in transition, I've seen a lot of disagreement over the semantics of that, with some insisting that is it exactly, and others insisting not. I get that it isn't pushing off, and I'll avoid using the word "extension" since some equate that with pushing up, but I will observe that the head comes up and the legs straighten somewhat, such as in this JF Beaulieu video, and just about any other expert video I've seen:

And that is what I am talking about. I wont call it extension.
Extension is not rotary pushoff though to push off you pretty much have to extend. Rotary pushoff is basically pushing yourself into the turn. Usially, pushing off the downhill foot to apply a turning force to the body and skis. The downhill foot is a platform from which one applies a twisting force to the body and skis. Because there's a push and extension the skis become unweighted and go into a turn.

This can be a blatant move or a subtle one. If there's a small hitch in the turn at transition just before entry then it's often a pushoff. For good skiers there might be a bit of a down stem. What can happen even with good skiers is you can get stuck uphill just as your skis are in transition ready to go into the turn. A little down stem and pushoff gets you out of the hole and around the corner.
That can become a very ingrained habit also and very subtle.

Sounds like what you were working on was making sure you weren't doing that. The "tails get caught" comment would lead me to belive you are always back or lean in too much or both. Was there an address specifically of the tails getting caught issue?
 
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Josh Matta

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@skibob You look really good in that video. I could give you a bunch of pointers but really you're doing OK. Stick with it and you'll figure out the flats.:roflmao:

Eric

skibob you look good to me!!!

not sure if you read the whole post. That video is not skibob but JF Beaulieu.

Rotary push off - when a skier pushes of their old outside ski up the hill combined with rotation prior to edge engagement.

Extentsion - making your legs or leg longer. Their is phase in every turn where at least one leg will get longer. Sometime there is multiple extensions per turn. you can extend with out pushing or pushing off although its a skill that extremely few people know how to do.
 
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skibob

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I failed to get video this weekend, but I made an interesting discovery/observation.

I loosened my boots. A lot. Well, relatively. The uppers that is. THe lower two buckles I've always had at nominal pressure as I am 2 sizes down from street shoes and I feel it. No pain, but definitely snug. Tightening the lowers would be pointless to unpleasant.

But I've always torqued down on the two upper trying to get decent fit around my very low volume instep and ankle.

However, my right foot was hurting and cramping and I loosened both boots up to the point that I had pretty much no contact at the shin. I could stick my index finger into the top of my boot. It was snug, but there was room for the finger. To be clear, this is fore/aft. Laterally, the boot fits relatively snugly at the ankle bones even if I don't latch it at all.

I was really worried that this would make the boot sloppy and give me trouble controlling my skis.

Not only did I not lack control, on MOL flat terrain, I could ease into the front of my boots and keep a more or less neutral, or even slightly forward position. Due to the abundance of cat tracks on Heavenly's NV side, I had lots of opportunities to experience this.

On steeper terrain I felt just fine like this. Very neutral. It was moderately deep powder to big soft bumps at Heavenly this weekend, so I wasn't really trying to stomp on the shovels anyway. I do think this would have been harder to do with the boots looser like this. Next weekend should be firmer, so I will see how that goes.

I am reading this to mean that I need more forward lean to the boots?

Remember, these are heat moldable boots and I had them molded with a fairly upright stance. But it also means they can be remolded to a more forward stance. I need to remold anyway, as the canting on my right leg has slowly been coming back toward neutral over the last few months.

So, do you read my experience the same way? How important is it for the fore/aft to be snug? Am i going to struggle on firmer conditions because of this? Or have I found an obvious, or even unlikely, solution? Should I remold with more forward lean, or just keep skiing with them "loose"?
 

Josh Matta

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more forward lean or more forward delta.
 

Eleeski

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If you liked your boots looser in the cuff, perhaps you need softer boots. A boot that is too stiff might not let you get into the right dynamic position when needed. Or the flex response could be wrong (ie soft until you hit a stiff wall). Demo some boots.

As the "best back seat skier on the mountain", I prefer a reasonably flexible boot. It needs to resist a bit as I start to drive it and the resistance needs to get progressively more the further I push the shins. I like to make sure the bottoms of my feet are engaged at all times. I ski like crap with my boots loose up top so maybe you need a different boot from me.

Eric
 

Josh Matta

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If a boots delta and forward lean are set up properly not only does it become easier to flex, but it becomes less necessary as well.
 
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skibob

skibob

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If a boots delta and forward lean are set up properly not only does it become easier to flex, but it becomes less necessary as well.
Yeah, this is where I am curious. I weigh 200lbs. The Progressor 13 is the stiffest boot I've ever skied, but only by a little. Dalbello 110 is probably only slightly less stiff than Fischer 130 IMHO.

To be clear, I am not arguing that I LIKE the boots loose (maybe for comfort, but not arguing that they ski better that way). But that it was a lot more comfortable AND that I did not feel like I lost (or gained) control from it. Next weekend will be firmer which should give me a chance to see if I've lost the ability to get forward pressure. In last weekend's powder, I really couldn't tell.
 

Josh Matta

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the deal is people far lighter than you ski in 150+ plug boots. Look at Cgieb and Bob Barnes. they are not even close to 200lb but have no issue in a 150 plug boot.

its not just skill, its proper alignment.
 

Eleeski

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If your boots are soft enough you can drive the boots to the optimal position. Plus you get comfort and subtle control. In bumps and soft snow some boot flexibility is a great advantage. Maybe not the best for carving ice but certainly better than a boot that doesn't match your style.

Something to try might be to add foam padding around the back of the cuff (or the front? ). I shim boots with those foam pads for camping. Or the gardener knee pads if you want to go thicker. Use a grinder or sander to feather the edges. Cheap and easy way to test and adjust things.

Always blame the equipment!

Eric
 

Josh Matta

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Always blame the equipment if its not correct. Why fight it?

My boots(kr2) have adjustable flex, adjustable forward lean, and the delta can be adjusted with plates.

I owned the original Kryptons and ran them with the stiff tongue, and plugs in the back that basically made them a 140 flex boot, my for and aft balance was always good in that boot.

I got my Kr2 and set them up at 130 flex, took them out and skied them, i was fighting to stay forward on groomers and VERY backseat and stemming though bumps. I took the flex down to 90 and yeah I could flex the boot now, but I was still backseat. That night I searched and found the delta difference between my oldboots and new boot, put a 4 mm shim under the heel the next day between the boot and the binding and it felt just like the old boot.

Well I agree some flex is good. Its a tired old argument though that if you are talking about moving more than a couple degree in flex to get into a balance positioned. In my case I was good enough skier with enough experience at the time that I knew it was not me, and no matter what i would do I would never find balance.
 

givethepigeye

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@Josh Matta so I guess the question would be - how does a skier know if they are in the correct fore/aft balance (other than "feel")? Is the a simple test that one can self diagnose? Or more scientific. For example - I had some new orthotics made - seemed like the heel was a tad thicker than old ones - so kind of a heel lift - as a result I kind of felt "off" (believe me I don't need any help there) so I had him take the material down - haven't skied since that change.
 

Josh Matta

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feel can be good, but some people learn to ski with awful for and aft alignment to the point that its feel right.

IMO the simplest and quickest way to test your for and aft is to put you ski boots on and do a squat on level smooth ground. if you fall backwards raise the heel, if you fall forwards raise the toes. Adjust until have the most range of motion possible .
 

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