Which way do we turn our legs?

[CalG]

A preturn sets your center in the correct attitude to "fall" into the next turn.

The skis go left for a heart beat, you go right, the ski shape brings it all around and off you go!

 

[Steve]

I do believe that the femurs rotate in the direction of the turn, but the feet if rotated in the opposite direction enhance tipping, based on the way the joints in the foot work. Countersteering.

 

[razie]

I guess I don't qualify to post a video of it, since - you know my thing - I don't turn my legs myself, I try to make the skis turn my legs...

So, from this perspective, I try to avoid "manhandling the ski" - and all I try to do is to focus on tipping the skis on edge and the other complementary things and then let the ski engage and turn my legs. As we touched in another thread, there is a tension in the legs/feet, of course, against which the hips counter - but that is different. I am not trying at any point to torque the boot laterally to rotate it, i.e. "turn my feet". I am using the boot in different ways.

The inversion of the foot in the inside boot, may, in fact, apply a small rotation (lifting the tips), like the Italian guy in the video above suggests, but that's not relevant to the turning of the skis - as the skis are on edge. I do not purposefully create that rotation - the effort there is inversion.

Another way to put it is that I focus on a clean edge change.

cheers

p.s. It would be very interesting to have some sensors wrapping our feet, sensors which would detect also if the foot is pressing or the boot is pressing in different areas and directions - I think that's coming soon...

 

[Steve]

razie that works fine for carving, but how to you ski when you don't have the luxury of edge lock?
I know for me when I get in bumpy terrain and other situations that I need to turn my legs. I can't see how snow force reaction on the skis can make them turn when they're unweighted for example.

 

[razie]

razie that works fine for carving, but how to you ski when you don't have the luxury of edge lock?
I know for me when I get in bumpy terrain and other situations that I need to turn my legs. I can't see how snow force reaction on the skis can make them turn when they're unweighted for example.

Same. You just need to engage the edge enough to get the ski bend and turn - edge lock is not needed for the ski shape to create a turn - most consumer skis are so soft, you don't need any real pressure to make them bend a little: just pull on the tips and see how much it took to bend it a little. There are many other ways too, like messing with fore/aft and pressure in relation to edging, counter etc that don't require forceful foot rotation...

If you need to throw them over unweighted and jump a shark, sure, you do what you have to, but I'm talking about the normal or average "planned" turn.

cheers

p.s. I'm not arguing that it doesn't work or it shouldn't be done, just talking about what I try to do.

 

[Steve]

You answered the arc-to-arc aspect of it, but what about short swing unweighted turns? You don't need to jump a shark to be unweighted. What about skiing along the edge of a trail slowly in uneven terrain?

Race focused training will only get you so far. Can you do a hockey stop without turning your legs?

I think coaches who dismiss the value of leg steering are doing the skiing public a huge disservice. Upper Body/Lower Body Separation requires an awareness of and control of the femurs rotating in the hip sockets without the pelvis turning. It's not a natural movement. It needs to be developed. Without it skiers are at a huge disadvantage in all but a limited amount of situations.

 

[Rod9301]

You answered the arc-to-arc aspect of it, but what about short swing unweighted turns? You don't need to jump a shark to be unweighted. What about skiing along the edge of a trail slowly in uneven terrain?

Race focused training will only get you so far. Can you do a hockey stop without turning your legs?

I think coaches who dismiss the value of leg steering are doing the skiing public a huge disservice. Upper Body/Lower Body Separation requires an awareness of and control of the femurs rotating in the hip sockets without the pelvis turning. It's not a natural movement. It needs to be developed. Without it skiers are at a huge disadvantage in all but a limited amount of situations.

In most cases ski you need to do is different the outside ski edge to slide laterally, without rotary input.

This way you can ski 99 percent of the terrain.

The only time you need rotary is in very steep and firm terrain, where you want to minimize the time in the fall line, it you do jump turns.

But this would be terrain that most likely you will not find in a resort.

 

[Steve]

So Rod, your legs and your pelvis remain in a fixed relationship? I'd think there would be no UB/LB separation if that was the case.

 

[Rod9301]

So Rod, your legs and your pelvis remain in a fixed relationship? I'd think there would be no UB/LB separation if that was the case.

No of course they don't
I keep my pelvis facing the outside ski pretty much all the time, except for transitions

 

[tball]

Here's my take from a different perspective. How do you ski a 3-meter wide chute with 21-meter turn radius skis? Or ski zipper line bumps?

There is a lot more going on skiing off-piste terrain than just getting your skis on edge and letting them turn for you.

I gave a little thought to Josh's original question. I don't believe I ever think about turning my legs. My mental model is more of "pointing my skis."

I think turning legs is probably just one component of a complex combination of movements that results in pointing skis. I don't think about all the movements, they just happen to try get my skis pointed where I want them to go. Then, of course, add in edging, tipping, angulation, absorption and all the other stuff to your pointing.

Then I point my skis the other way for the next turn, and so on.

I'll even take the challenge of posting a video to try to highlight my "pointing" perspective.


To emphasize "pointing," in this frame toward the end, my skis and all my momentum are pointed off something like a 40-foot cliff on the other side of that rope and trees. I gotta do something other than tip my 21-meter skis on edge to initiate that turn!

I guess after looking at that, I'm turning my feet to the left to affect that left turn? Maybe there's a tiny little right pre-turn just before?

Not sure it matters as long as you get your skis pointed where you want to go!

 

[Steve]

Please realize @Rod9301 that I'm not trying to give you a hard time because i respect you greatly - for less experienced skiers I feel the need to make these points. If your pelvis is facing your outside ski than there is a rotation of the legs happening constantly, as which leg is over the outside ski is of course constantly changing.

My point is that if we don't feel and learn to control that rotation we are ignoring an extremely important movement.

I assume that you feel that the rotation is passive not active - which is fine. But there is rotation happening. Personally most ski instruction schools believe that the skier should at times control and actively assist or create that rotation. PMTS states that there is no active rotary as I understand it. I think it's important for learners to realize that this is a controversial and alternate viewpoint.

What I've learned in my skiing development is that by increasing my proprioception and control over that independent turning of the legs it made a dramatic improvement in my skiing.

 

[Steve]

@tball the pointing the skis perspective makes sense, but for me for many years I was pointing the skis by turning the feet and legs - and the pelvis was also turning, thus my weight moved to the inside ski and all sorts of other things happened that lack of separation creates.

So I had to learn to either not turn my pelvis or to turn my legs. Holding back the pelvis from turning, and in general focusing on my hips (inside hip drive, creating counter, etc.) never worked. Focusing on my legs works.

This past summer I spent a lot of time in front of a mirror on a slanted board and staring at my belly button (contemplating my navel) while turning my legs. If my belly button followed, my weight would move over the inside leg. If I watched the belly button and turned the legs without it turning, I clearly felt the weight on my outside leg.

I also learned through doing this almost every day for months, what it felt like to turn the legs (independently of the hips/pelvis.)

Once back on snow I could feel this without the mirror (or exposing my midriff to the cold!) My UB/LB separation improved greatly, my skiing improved greatly, my ability to point my skis improved greatly, because that big mass of my upper body wasn't following along. Knowing what leg rotation feels like is key, whether it's caused by the skis arcing, or by the muscles in the legs creating the turning.

And to use PSIA jargon - I skied into and out of counter. The legs were the focus, not the hips. The counter developed as the legs turned. I didn't have to use CA and CB and foot pullback and other foci, to keep the pelvis oriented over the outside leg. It just happened.

 

[Rod9301]

Please realize @Rod9301 that I'm not trying to give you a hard time because i respect you greatly - for less experienced skiers I feel the need to make these points. If your pelvis is facing your outside ski than there is a rotation of the legs happening constantly, as which leg is over the outside ski is of course constantly changing.

My point is that if we don't feel and learn to control that rotation we are ignoring an extremely important movement.

I assume that you feel that the rotation is passive not active - which is fine. But there is rotation happening. Personally most ski instruction schools believe that the skier should at times control and actively assist or create that rotation. PMTS states that there is no active rotary as I understand it. I think it's important for learners to realize that this is a controversial and alternate viewpoint.

What I've learned in my skiing development is that by increasing my proprioception and control over that independent turning of the legs it made a dramatic improvement in my skiing.

You're right, the femurs rotate in their sucker. To me that happens automatically, all i think about is to orient my hips to face the outside ski.

 

[Rod9301]

@tball the pointing the skis perspective makes sense, but for me for many years I was pointing the skis by turning the feet and legs - and the pelvis was also turning, thus my weight moved to the inside ski and all sorts of other things happened that lack of separation creates.

So I had to learn to either not turn my pelvis or to turn my legs. Holding back the pelvis from turning, and in general focusing on my hips (inside hip drive, creating counter, etc.) never worked. Focusing on my legs works.

This past summer I spent a lot of time in front of a mirror on a slanted board and staring at my belly button (contemplating my navel) while turning my legs. If my belly button followed, my weight would move over the inside leg. If I watched the belly button and turned the legs without it turning, I clearly felt the weight on my outside leg.

I also learned through doing this almost every day for months, what it felt like to turn the legs (independently of the hips/pelvis.)

Once back on snow I could feel this without the mirror (or exposing my midriff to the cold!) My UB/LB separation improved greatly, my skiing improved greatly, my ability to point my skis improved greatly, because that big mass of my upper body wasn't following along. Knowing what leg rotation feels like is key, whether it's caused by the skis arcing, or by the muscles in the legs creating the turning.

And to use PSIA jargon - I skied into and out of counter. The legs were the focus, not the hips. The counter developed as the legs turned. I didn't have to use CA and CB and foot pullback and other foci, to keep the pelvis oriented over the outside leg. It just happened.

If all you do is ski into counter, you're missing the counter in the 1st half of the turn

 

[Steve]

True, but many believe that counter should develop as the turn does. Early counter is not a universal method.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. (Ouch,) Let's try this again.

There's more than one path to heaven. (That's better.)

 

[HardDaysNight]

If all you do is ski into counter, you're missing the counter in the 1st half of the turn

Not only that but counter in the upper half of the the turn is really important to eliminating the twist and skid that plagues so many skiers trying to make a clean carve. Spend some time watching top SL or GS and note how and when counter is created. Hirscher will do as an example.

 

[Doby Man]

True, but many believe that counter should develop as the turn does. Early counter is not a universal method.
There's more than one way to skin a cat. (Ouch,) Let's try this again.There's more than one path to heaven. (That's better.)

I agree with the ankler here. For me: All the (5) fundamental movements of separation that occur between the CoM and the BoS (flexion, extension, rotation, angulation, inclination) build and dissipate their DIRT through the turn phases along with the forces of the turn. It is the position of my BoS due to the mechanical output of the carving ski replete with the power of ground force reaction under which and in relationship with a steady, well directed and vertically quiet CoM that will/should dictate all these movements. The kinetic chain of the human musculoskeletal structure provides a guided path of movement that further aids in the “automation” of these movements. I know … crazy. They are the movements that provide an isolatory division of movement along the center axis of the sagittal (lateral), transverse (vertical) and frontal/coronal (fore/aft) planes so that the Bos and CoM can be operated completely independently from each other. Not until they are truly independent from each other will they be able to assist each other’s function the most effectively. The CoM and the BoS are two separate loci of control. The five fundamental movements of separation that occur between the two are not supposed to be elements of control but rather a passive output as a result of the “relationship between the CoM and the BoS” which is the core function of skiing and all athletic movement. However, they are highly reported and understood as a complex set of direct inputs and are all too often tackled and embedded as such.

That said, there are times in my faster and larger radius turns where I will use a “pre-coil” tactic “ahead” of the forces of the turn when I need to throw in some early full body angulation, that of which is primarily acquired through rotary at the waist, due to my turn intent based on anticipatory factors such as speed, direction, radius and fall line. Of course, I do not calculate all those things in my head as they occur with the ingraining from mindlessly endless and addictive repetition. Sometimes a powerful pre coil will produce a rotary momentum residual that will provide stability in the turn with rotary tension at the end of the coiling phase in fast GS turns.

 

[razie]

Please realize @Rod9301 that I'm not trying to give you a hard time because i respect you greatly - for less experienced skiers I feel the need to make these points. If your pelvis is facing your outside ski than there is a rotation of the legs happening constantly, as which leg is over the outside ski is of course constantly changing.

My point is that if we don't feel and learn to control that rotation we are ignoring an extremely important movement.

I assume that you feel that the rotation is passive not active - which is fine. But there is rotation happening. Personally most ski instruction schools believe that the skier should at times control and actively assist or create that rotation. PMTS states that there is no active rotary as I understand it. I think it's important for learners to realize that this is a controversial and alternate viewpoint.

What I've learned in my skiing development is that by increasing my proprioception and control over that independent turning of the legs it made a dramatic improvement in my skiing.

What holds your hips from rotating into the turn? You seem to assume that that's the case and thus the legs need to turn... (which they do, obviously) but what holds your hips from rotating into the turn?

We had a thread on separation/counter recently, I recommend going through it.

Your point of view seems to be that the hips are somehow anchored in space and you turn your legs against that "anchor", regardless of the ski shape and ski-snow interaction. My point of view is that I try to get the ski-snow interaction to turn my legs and I focus on turning my hips counter to that.

If you remember your Newtonian physics, the only way to move is action/reaction and the only part of your body that's actually in contact with something are the skis and boots (ignoring gravity and other fields for now) ! Not the hips! The only thing keeping the hips in place without additional action is inertia/momentum, which is very feeble - at anything above a good bump turn pace, momentum does not even account for the hips staying stable by themselves - which is why over 99% of the skiers you see do rotate into the turns and indeed, need to compensate by doing other things, like rotating and pushing the feet, rotating the entire body, leaning in etc. The hips will want to turn with the skis, because they are connected to the feet - unless one learns how to separate them, and even then, most people have very poor hip mobility and even for those with good hip mobility, any turn with a radius bigger than 10m would pose a big problem on keeping the hips from rotating, without a specific counter-action. I just pulled a number out of my hat, but regardless of how good we get at separating, the body is still connected and a turning ski will drag the hips to rotate with it!

Also, good to consider that a flat ski cannot help one with the angular momentum of the hips. Only an edged ski can (and a solid pole plant - sure)! There you have it: turn physics 101 ! a) Rotate a flat ski or b) Edge the ski and counter-act its turning !

... anyways, we've gotten into the weeds a little and to paraphrase Josh, I'd like to see video at this point, to verify separation

And since I asked, here's mine, fresh from some freeskiing last week:


You can certainly try to characterize this as "race style" but I don't see it like that. There is a focus on performance, for sure... and I am a race coach, sure enough, but (almost?) anyone can ski like this. If the point is that it would hurt beginners... hmm, I don't know - not so sure that focusing on refining ski control (edging, pressure etc), before having to survive on anything steep, would hurt them. Whether they would refrain from skiing steeps before being able to control all fundamentals properly - not so sure and when you only have a hammer... any turn looks like a nail

cheers

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
@LiquidFeet....when I asked the impossible of them, which was to tip their feet right and turn their feet left and instantly saw leg steering with no or much less hip twisting. ....

Getting back to the thread's original subject....

The two pictures below explain (for me) the usefulness of pointing the toes in the wrong direction for a turn... as in point them to the right when making a left turn.

--First, the foot rotates when it tips. This happens naturally.
--Second, the foot tips when it rotates. This also happens naturally.
--When either foot tips to its LTE (little toe edge goes down), the toes rotate to point "inside" (toward the middle of the body).
--When either foot tips to its BTE (big toe edge goes down), the toes rotate to point "outside" (away from the body).
--Conversely, when the toes rotate to point "inside," the foot tips to its LTE.
--Conversely, when the toes rotate to point "outside," the foot tips to its BTE.

Like so:

Try all of these movements when sitting in a chair -- without moving your hips. The movements are anatomically independent of any rotation of the femurs.
It all happens below motionless knees and hips.
The cause of the linkage between the tipping and the toe pointing has to do with the axis of the subtalar joint inside the ankle.
That joint is tilted. When either element (lower leg, or foot) is moved, the other moves in a predictable fashion.
It was years of Jamt posting pictures like these that clued me into this phenomenon. @Jamt, are you here?

Like so:

If you start a left turn by tipping both skis to the left, THEN try to point the toes to the right, they won't point... but something subtle happens. @Josh Matta, you've seen that the hip rotation disappears when skiers are asked to do this toe pointing. My guess is that the hip rotation disappears because they associate pointing toes to the right with rotating the hips to the right and turning to the right. If they rotate that right hip back a bit because of that habitual association, the toe pointing has just stopped the hip rotation into the turn by triggering an habitual movement of the hips.

This is a guess on my part, but if you've seen success for years, something is definitely working with this exercise.

 

[DavidSkis]

It's been pointed out that the Italians like Valerio Malfatto teach skiers to turn the foot toward the outside of the arc. I interpret the CSIA model as intending to turn the lower joints in the direction of travel. Watch Riley Mcglashan in his project kitz segment and he talks about turning the femur, then the ankle in the direction of travel through the turn and how with enough turning the sky eventually flattens, allowing for entry into the next arc. The caveat is that too much of any movement will put the skier out of balance; separation is needed to keep the skier in rotational balance.

While I get the Italian concept that turning the feet to the outside will increase the pressure of the tails into the ice, in practice I'm not sure it's a priority. Most skiers on steeper terrain need speed control through the top of the arc, and the easiest way to get that without interrupting your flow is to drift/shape the top of the turn with a deliberate, progressive steering of the ski. The reality is most skiers do the opposite, accelerating through the top half and braking through the bottom half, disrupting flow. Some drift in the top of the turn goes a long way toward improving speed control through the bottom half.