Where in the Boot to Balance?

[Ogg]

I’ve been loosely following this thread and, admittedly, skimming some of the longer, more detailed posts but I think it comes down to, for skiing you want more of a martial arts and/or yoga stance with your heels more planted than a typical athletic “ready” stance on the balls of your feet.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

I have been reading, thinking and, until today, skiing, trying the various things suggested and mentally cataloging my personal experiences. I have a longer unfinished post but I am not yet done thinking. But I just wanted to interject a big thank you to all who have posted and to say, yes 130 flex boots seem fine to me.

And I wanted to point this out. Did anybody else understand the significance of this? Do you know what the "Peak" is at Big Sky? Look at the Big Sky trail map and the Gondola which goes to the Peak and the trails down. Do you know what size (even if they are pink) balls it would take to do this? And it certainly speaks volumes about the technique which SkiSailor is advocating if Ursula is skiing it in the manner SkiSailor describes:

With regard to the interesting issue of mobility vs. stability . . . when Ursula carves high speed GS turns down the very long, very steep bowls off our peak at Big Sky, I don't think she perceives any stability problems. Plus centering over the BoF has the added benefit that when she arrives at the bottom of the non-stop run, she is not even breathing hard while I see clinicians in our ski school who are 40 years her junior having to take a few moments to breathe. This is the kind of evidence I am consistently confronted with.

 

[Scruffy]

I'm not sure where people are getting the impression that an athletic stance for skiing means a heel raised. I can't think of anyone in the ski business that would advocate that.

When I first started racing some 25 years ago, race coaches emphasized BOF as a focal point for where your COM should be at turn initiation, but with the realization that your COM will move slightly aft to heels at turn end. This is still in alignment, and not at odds with the centered stance chorus. You can't stay on the BOF all the time, neither can you stay perfectly centered--your COM is suppose to move for and aft, no matter what type of skiing we're talking about.

LeMaster writes in Ultimate Skiing: Chapter on Alignment and Stance: "... A football linebacker defending against an oncoming opponent provides a good model for a skier's neutral, homebased stance. … The stance is flexed at all the major joints. Hands are at the same height, about halfway between hips and shoulders. The athlete's balance is on the balls of his feet. With a couple of tweaks--the stance is generally narrower and the balance maybe a hair farther back--this is the basic neutral stance of an athletic skier,"
...

"We often talk about having your balance over your center of gravity, "over your feet." Sounds simple enough, doesn't it? But it's not. At the heart of the issue is what "over" means. It doesn't mean that your center of gravity and feet must be aligned with respect to gravity. It means they must be aligned with respect to the balance axis, as defined in chapter 1. Recall that the balance axis goes through your center of gravity and is perpendicular to the bottom of your skis, and is seldom aligned with gravity [ see figure 1.8 some picture of Bob Barnes skiing]. So when a coach says your balance is over your feet, that means the balance axis falls somewhere between the balls of your feet and the back of your arch when viewed in the sagittal plane. ... "

underline emphasis is mine.

 

[Scruffy]

With regard to the interesting issue of mobility vs. stability, how would I detect this reduced stability that you say is a concern? I don't feel a stability issue in my own skiing. And when Ursula carves high speed GS turns down the very long, very steep bowls off our peak at Big Sky, I don't think she perceives any stability problems. Plus centering over the BoF has the added benefit that when she arrives at the bottom of the non-stop run, she is not even breathing hard while I see clinicians in our ski school who are 40 years her junior having to take a few moments to breathe. This is the kind of evidence I am consistently confronted with.

And I wanted to point this out. Did anybody else understand the significance of this? Do you know what the "Peak" is at Big Sky? Look at the Big Sky trail map and the Gondola which goes to the Peak and the trails down. Do you know what size (even if they are pink) balls it would take to do this? And it certainly speaks volumes about the technique which SkiSailor is advocating if Ursula is skiing it in the manner SkiSailor describes:

It speaks volumes of her ability to ski efficiently, and at a high performance level, which is a lot more than just balancing over BOF.

 

[dbostedo]

I'm not sure where people are getting the impression that an athletic stance for skiing means a heel raised.... LeMaster writes in Ultimate Skiing: Chapter on Alignment and Stance: "... A football linebacker defending against an oncoming opponent provides a good model for a skier's neutral, homebased stance. …

That example is exactly where people get the impression that an athletic stance for skiing would have the heel raised. The linebacker is not planting his heels until forced to by contact - he's likely got them raised and is literally on only the balls of his feet to promote quicker movement in any direction prior to that. So that creates confusion. If you tell me to take a ready, athletic stance like I would I football or baseball, my heel is getting very light or coming up.

 

[Scruffy]

That example is exactly where people get the impression that an athletic stance for skiing would have the heel raised. The linebacker is not planting his heels until forced to by contact - he's likely got them raised and is literally on only the balls of his feet to promote quicker movement in any direction prior to that. So that creates confusion. If you tell me to take a ready, athletic stance like I would I football or baseball, my heel is getting very light or coming up.

I don't see it that way. If a linebacker is flexed at all major joints in a neutral stance his heels are on the ground.
But this is the key in LeMaster's quote " With a couple of tweaks--the stance is generally narrower and the balance maybe a hair farther back--this is the basic neutral stance of an athletic skier,"

 

[dbostedo]

If a linebacker is flexed at all major joints in a neutral stance his heels are on the ground.

I disagree - or rather, if that's the definition, you should rarely be in a neutral stance. Per my baseball, basketball, lacrosse, and soccer coaches (I didn't play football), if your heels are on the ground, you're not ready to move. Yes, all your joints are flexed, but you're not that relaxed or planted, because you're slower to react that way.

Anyway, I think I get it now, and you all have confirmed what I was thinking.... so thanks.

 

[Scruffy]

I disagree - or rather, if that's the definition, you should rarely be in a neutral stance. Per my baseball, basketball, lacrosse, and soccer coaches (I didn't play football), if your heels are on the ground, you're not ready to move. Yes, all your joints are flexed, but you're not that relaxed or planted, because you're slower to react that way.

Anyway, I think I get it now, and you all have confirmed what I was thinking.... so thanks.

There are a lot of joints to align;, using the athletic stance is a good place to start for neutral stance of skiing with a minor tweak that your heels are not raised.

Nowhere is skiing is heel raise within a boot a good thing. It starts with your boot fitter and right on up through every level of instruction and coaching. So I think we have to assume that a BOF focus does not include a heel raise.

 

[Skisailor]

It speaks volumes of her ability to ski efficiently, and at a high performance level, which is a lot more than just balancing over BOF.

Bingo - it’s not just the BoF balance point. There are other aspects to her technique that focus on efficiency and allow her to ski like this. But that would be for another thread.

 

[dbostedo]

There are a lot of joints to align;, using the athletic stance is a good place to start for neutral stance of skiing with a minor tweak that your heels are not raised.

Nowhere is skiing is heel raise within a boot a good thing. It starts with your boot fitter and right on up through every level of instruction and coaching. So I think we have to assume that a BOF focus does not include a heel raise.

Yep! I think we're in agreement now. One of the things that's been tough for me skiing was learning to keep my heel down while trying to "get forward". I.e. learning to dorsiflex enough and be in the ready position with my heel planted was hard. And stork turns were really hard at first, but I think helped a lot. But I think I generally do it pretty well now, at least when I think about it.

 

[Scruffy]

Yep! I think we're in agreement now. One of the things that's been tough for me skiing was learning to keep my heel down while trying to "get forward". I.e. learning to dorsiflex enough and be in the ready position with my heel planted was hard. And stork turns were really hard at first, but I think helped a lot. But I think I generally do it pretty well now, at least when I think about it.

Yeah that's one of the toughest things when learning anything new ( or even basic communication for that matter ) is putting aside our existing assumptions when we hear or read things, esp just terms.

I first tried downhill skiing when I was 12yo. That previous summer I had water skied for the first time. Now, my 12yo mind assumed skiing is skiing and that I'd need to lean back on snow as in water skiing. As you can imagine I spent a lot of time flopping on my a$$ while attempting to snowplow while leaning back.

 

[Skisailor]

@Scruffy - I’m glad you also briefly mentioned boot fit. There is no way in my boots that my heels could come up off the boot sole. I mean - maybe if I got into a ski jumpers stance I could get them to lift the tiniest bit . . . .

And @dbostedo - it took me awhile too. But I can now continue to center my weight over the BoF through a pretty decent range of ankle motion - from cuff neutral through max flex - by changing the relative amount of knee and hip flexion.

 

[JESinstr]

There are a lot of joints to align;, using the athletic stance is a good place to start for neutral stance of skiing with a minor tweak that your heels are not raised.

Nowhere is skiing is heel raise within a boot a good thing. It starts with your boot fitter and right on up through every level of instruction and coaching. So I think we have to assume that a BOF focus does not include a heel raise.

So let me get this straight, You think it is the function/responsibility of the boot to keep the heel on the foot bed? This is at the heart of this discussion. Most here continue to ignore the fact that we are built for locomotion. Balancing on a moving platform was not a design priority for our maker. We need to learn to adjust. And remember what the word "assume" means.

 

[vindibona1]

Mike - I think I addressed the whole “stability” issue above.

IMO he addressed an important PART of the stability issue. He addressed stability of stance. And while he is correct (generally) in terms of the tripod (though I think of it a bit differently) the stability comes from rolling the foot, which levers into the boot, in whichever direction, usually forward and usually simultaneously to one side or another, which then solidifies connection of foot, ankle, leg, boot and ski, creating the stability and power required to pilot the ski. Generating leverage in this manner not only produces stability and power, but often minimizes the amount of upper cuff pressure needed. JMO

 

[Average Joe]

I don't see it that way. If a linebacker is flexed at all major joints in a neutral stance his heels are on the ground.
But this is the key in LeMaster's quote " With a couple of tweaks--the stance is generally narrower and the balance maybe a hair farther back--this is the basic neutral stance of an athletic skier,"

I would bet that, by the time the ball has snapped, the offensive lineman has abandoned the heel and is on the ball of his foot. Ditto the baseball shortstop when the bat makes contact with the ball. And so on, in many more instances.
In skiing, there is good reason why the center of the running surface (CRF) aligns with the ball of foot (BOF). It’s where the most efficient power meets the appropriate location of the ski.

 

[Chris V.]

Others have touched on this, but I think it bears repeating that there is a fundamental difference between how we use our feet in skiing and how we use them in most other athletic activities. In skiing, we aren't using a lot of plantar flexion creating large movements of joints and full unweighting of the heels. We primarily seek to tip the skis laterally, in order to bend the skis and create turns using the ski design.

 

[Scruffy]

So let me get this straight, You think it is the function/responsibility of the boot to keep the heel on the foot bed? This is at the heart of this discussion. Most here continue to ignore the fact that we are built for locomotion. Balancing on a moving platform was not a design priority for our maker. We need to learn to adjust. And remember what the word "assume" means.

Did I say that? No, not solely ( pun intended ). It's your stance alignment that is responsible, where did I say otherwise? As an also telemark skier, as well as alpine, I know this implicitly. However, if your boot is fit correctly your heel won't lift, well not much anyway.

 

[Rod9301]

I'm not sure where people are getting the impression that an athletic stance for skiing means a heel raised. I can't think of anyone in the ski business that would advocate that.

When I first started racing some 25 years ago, race coaches emphasized BOF as a focal point for where your COM should be at turn initiation, but with the realization that your COM will move slightly aft to heels at turn end. This is still in alignment, and not at odds with the centered stance chorus. You can't stay on the BOF all the time, neither can you stay perfectly centered--your COM is suppose to move for and aft, no matter what type of skiing we're talking about.

LeMaster writes in Ultimate Skiing: Chapter on Alignment and Stance: "... A football linebacker defending against an oncoming opponent provides a good model for a skier's neutral, homebased stance. … The stance is flexed at all the major joints. Hands are at the same height, about halfway between hips and shoulders. The athlete's balance is on the balls of his feet. With a couple of tweaks--the stance is generally narrower and the balance maybe a hair farther back--this is the basic neutral stance of an athletic skier,"
...

"We often talk about having your balance over your center of gravity, "over your feet." Sounds simple enough, doesn't it? But it's not. At the heart of the issue is what "over" means. It doesn't mean that your center of gravity and feet must be aligned with respect to gravity. It means they must be aligned with respect to the balance axis, as defined in chapter 1. Recall that the balance axis goes through your center of gravity and is perpendicular to the bottom of your skis, and is seldom aligned with gravity [ see figure 1.8 some picture of Bob Barnes skiing]. So when a coach says your balance is over your feet, that means the balance axis falls somewhere between the balls of your feet and the back of your arch when viewed in the sagittal plane. ... "

underline emphasis is mine.

Ok so Ron was wrong

 

[Scruffy]

Ok so Ron was wrong

That's so helpful, thanks.

 

[JESinstr]

I'm not sure where people are getting the impression that an athletic stance for skiing means a heel raised. I can't think of anyone in the ski business that would advocate that.

When I first started racing some 25 years ago, race coaches emphasized BOF as a focal point for where your COM should be at turn initiation, but with the realization that your COM will move slightly aft to heels at turn end. This is still in alignment, and not at odds with the centered stance chorus. You can't stay on the BOF all the time, neither can you stay perfectly centered--your COM is suppose to move for and aft, no matter what type of skiing we're talking about.

LeMaster writes in Ultimate Skiing: Chapter on Alignment and Stance: "... A football linebacker defending against an oncoming opponent provides a good model for a skier's neutral, homebased stance. … The stance is flexed at all the major joints. Hands are at the same height, about halfway between hips and shoulders. The athlete's balance is on the balls of his feet. With a couple of tweaks--the stance is generally narrower and the balance maybe a hair farther back--this is the basic neutral stance of an athletic skier,"
...

"We often talk about having your balance over your center of gravity, "over your feet." Sounds simple enough, doesn't it? But it's not. At the heart of the issue is what "over" means. It doesn't mean that your center of gravity and feet must be aligned with respect to gravity. It means they must be aligned with respect to the balance axis, as defined in chapter 1. Recall that the balance axis goes through your center of gravity and is perpendicular to the bottom of your skis, and is seldom aligned with gravity [ see figure 1.8 some picture of Bob Barnes skiing]. So when a coach says your balance is over your feet, that means the balance axis falls somewhere between the balls of your feet and the back of your arch when viewed in the sagittal plane. ... "

underline emphasis is mine.

Ok so Ron was wrong

That's so helpful, thanks.

Oh, the sarcasm....

The problem with LeMaster's example is that the linebacker stance he is referencing is a static stance in preparation for an upcoming, highly dynamic locomotion situation. This is not what a skier has to deal with. He is right that the key is to tactically invoke the flex complex (ankles, knees and hips) in the pursuit of COM to ski management. Your "Somewhere between the balls of your feet and the back of your arch" point is a common sense view but with that approach you should acknowledge the front of the heel as a co-conspirator with the BoF for a truly dynamic range of balance.