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Where in the Boot to Balance?

Tim Hodgson

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I read the CARV footbed sensor thread and it seems like it could be a useful tool, but the resulting data would not be helpful to me since I don't know what the goal is, in other words,

I think I read that Mikaela Shiffrin said something like "Only perfect practice makes perfect skiing," and personally I cannot "perfectly practice" if I don't know what the goal is. On the flip side, I have heard it said that "Practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent." So,

Where in the Boot Should I Balance?

We skied hard at Alta/Snowbird for the past four days including yesterday which had a delightful foot of new powder with crust underneath off piste (and on hard snow primarily on groomers the prior three days). And we are now at Deer Valley. (All IKON pass.)

These last four days I have been working with a Squaw Valley Level III long-time friend in our core ski buddies group who was coaching us how to ski flatter, feet-together, two-footed, equal edging, equal weighted, more forward, knees slightly bent, heels back, always in balance and ripping -- somewhat regardless of steepness and terrain.

I have surmised that when I can do it, this method results in less overall physical stress on my body than my one-footed, outside-edge-to-outside-edge, flex-to-release, lateral carving style, which I have been trying to perfect the last 15 years.

I like this two-footed skiing method allot, but it is definitely a different type of skiing than edge-to-edge skiing and requires fore aft and lateral balance which our goal is to achieve by as little friction as possible.

If you saw our friend skiing, you would definitely know that he is a Level III cert.

So my question is: Where in the boot should my feet balance?

1. Where and when on the footbed?

2. Where and when on the cuff?

3. What type of ski are you talking about? Wasp waisted tip to tail cambered carver or 100cm tip and tail rockered ski?

When you answer, please describe the type of turn you are referring to -- i.e., a carved turn or a flatter ski steered turn or a pivot type turn* -- and to what phase of the turn you are referring.

(*BTW, I am not sure that a pivot is really a type of turn at all but rather a redirection of the skis to which a linear or turning force is then added...)

Related: I am wondering if my purchase of RC130 flex Lange boots was best for me at my new 193-195 lbs. naked, 5' 10 3/4" height. However, despite their apparent stiffness to me, I have been working on keeping constant cuff contact wth at least slight cuff pressure, and then adding more cuff pressure to bite the tips during turn initiation. I consider that cuff pressure to be a form of "balance," so please include that in your discussion too.

I am feeling what I think is anterior compartment syndrome pain (outside lateral to the shins not shin bang) as a result of my new relationship with the cuffs. A doctor we are skiing with says I could be cutting off blood circulation, but I think I am just not used to using cuff pressure. But for the first time I have been able to flex my boots, so I will continue to work on cuff pressure. What do you think? For what type of turn and what turn phase?

And I am practicing balancing on the ball of my feet to the front of my arch. And trying to prevent my balance from moving to my heels at the completion of my turns. What do you think? For what type of turn and what turn phase?

P.S. @LiquidFeet must be bored because she encouraged me to post this thread. My guess is that she ordered a whole bunch of popcorn to watch the fireworks.

P.P.S. If you think this is a stupid question, just remember what my PSIA Examiner told me during my Level II cert. exam: "Remember Tim, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people asking questions..."
 
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Erik Timmerman

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I'm not gonna write a whole essay, but...

Your foot is not just a big piece of meat that holds your boot onto your leg.
Balance on your whole foot.
Try to always have contact between shin and tongue.
Don't pressure the cuff.
The ski will receive pressure from the snow and that will cause the cuff to come to you. That's the feeling of pressuring your boot.
 

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...how to ski flatter, feet-together, two-footed, equal edging, equal weighted, more forward, knees slightly bent, heels back....
This sounds like some teaching I've had - if "feet-together" just means functionally close, and not actually locked together. I'd say MOST of the time, if I have to pick a "point", that you should be balance over the rear of the arch of your foot. I feel like when I'm most balanced, though, it's not over a point - that I use more of the full bottom of my foot. Maybe the balance point moves a bit through the turn, but I'm not trying to be consistently on any one point.

And I think I'm definitely biased more toward the back half of my foot - stacked weight transferring through the lower leg - than, say, on the ball of my foot, which would be more typical of other sports where I'm not directly resisting a force pushing me to the ground.
 
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jimtransition

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I guess this depends on how you want to ski, personally, I try to carve every turn. When skiing I feel more pressure on the sides of my feet rather than the sole, as my skis are on edge most of the time. In terms of fore aft, I feel more pressure on the shin just after initiation, neutral/heel in the pressure phase and calf at the end of the turn. This is true for just about every ski or snow condition, there's just more pressure when skiing on ice than in powder.

OP how/why are you trying to prevent your weight moving to your heels at the end of the turn? I would say thats a natural function of your feet travelling a longer, more circular path than your body. Also, putting pressure through your heels uses your skeleton and muscles much more efficiently than standing on your toes, I doubt you squat or deadlift with your heels off the floor..
 

Erik Timmerman

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In terms of fore aft, I feel more pressure on the shin just after initiation, neutral/heel in the pressure phase and calf at the end of the turn. This is true for just about every ski or snow condition, there's just more pressure when skiing on ice than in powder.

Wow. Really? I mean I believe you, and by looking at your avatar picture, I'm gonna guess you know what you are doing, but that sure isn't what I feel. I'm sitting here wondering how I could make myself feel that and still get down the hill well.
 

oldschoolskier

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Where in the boot to balance is a wrong assumption. It is being balanced on the ski that sets up foundation for being perfect. Equipment, set up, body structure is the starting point, while important is not the end all if its not perfect.

What is important is that you know and feel what balanced is. The how starts with simple drills (I still do these first day of season and start of day during the season, everything else is about having fun).

Side slip drills, 360 drills (and variations), falling leaf, etc. All these teach balance and edge feel, which are the fundamental basis for everything else.

So I can ski with ill fitting equipment, poorly set up and with a quick warmup make them perform (I just won’t enjoy it because I need to compensate for the difference) because I have referenced the balance points and adjusted accordingly.

At this point I’ll let the other better written (knowledgeable) instructors take over as to the details of these drills for a better explaination.
 

Kneale Brownson

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You are MOST balanced when you can feel the WHOLE bottom of your feet with enough ankle flex to have contact between the shins and cuffs of the boots. I want to be in that position as I begin to initiate a new turn. Edge engagement in the turn will move my foot contact from the whole bottom to the sides of the bottom.
 

Mike King

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@Tim Hodgson, there is a difference between what the CARV skiing metrics say and what their balance drill video says. The video talks about the whole foot. The metrics say ball of the foot.

My belief has evolved as I've been on a personal quest to deal with fore/aft issues. I've come to believe that your own anatomy, boot setup, and binding will play a very major role in where you experience pressure on your foot, your ability to find the center of the ski, and your turning mechanics.

My personal anatomy, I believe, is that I have a disproportionately long lower leg. When coupled with the previous boot I was in, I was almost always on the front of the ski. I got a new boot setup, with a lower ramp angle, and added a gas pedal to the canting adjustments on the boot. This has made it easier for me to stand on the ski and find the middle. Still, I need to feel pressure on my heel to get the ski to turn around my foot rather than around the tip of the ski. And like @jimtransition, I work the ski from the front to the back often.

Still, I'm in the camp that you need to be able to feel the whole foot. I'm also not a fan of pinning the shin to the front of the boot, or, for that matter, keeping the ankle angle constant. I'm finding a lot more performance in my skiing by using my ankles, which control 97% of the mass of the body...

Mike
 
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Tim Hodgson

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@Mike King I am going to quote you here because I thought your analysis was brilliant and it applies to this thread:

I'm going to disagree with your analysis. The issue here is not that he is not forward at the initiation of the turn (he is), it is that he is a typical heel pusher -- he starts the turn forward, then moves back, rotates his skis rapidly in the shaping phase of the turn, and pushes the skis to an edge from the back of the ski until the skis bite, whereupon he flexes his ankle more than his knee and hip to move to the front of the ski in the finish of the turn.

Too improve, he needs to learn a different turn mechanic. Rather than an extension to unweight the skis, rapid rotation, and push to an edge, he needs to learn to tip the foot and lower leg to establish an edge in the early initiation, then allow the skis to rotate through the shaping and finish phases of the turn. All while staying in the center of the ski.

It will be a tall order to change these turning mechanics. I'd approach the problem with a three phase learning process:

  1. Skating to learn how to tip the roll the ski to an edge before pushing off from it. So, the drill is to start skating without poles on a flat or even slightly uphill slope. You need to roll the knee down and inside to establish a platform (edge) that can accept the pressure before pushing off on that ski. You should land on the outside edge of the gliding (new) ski. The roll that knee down and in to establish the edge that can accept the pressure of the push off prior to pushing off. (this is the top of the turn).
  2. Next, work on J turns. Start with the skis in the fall line. Roll the knees down and in to establish the edge and CARVE the skis all the way across the hill and see how far uphill you can finish. There should be pencil line edges left in the snow. Note that this has to be accomplished by keeping the upper body over the skis -- incline to the inside and you will not be successful in leaving the tracks in the snow. Rather, the edging comes from tipping the foot and lower leg. So, you will need to be in a middle flexed position (flexed in all three joints: the ankle, knee, and hip). (this is the bottom of the turn).
  3. Now join the top and bottom of the turn together. You've got to keep the body traveling with the skis. If you allow it to dive inside to create only inclination, you will move away from the skis and not be successful in establishing the platform at the top of the turn to accept the pressure of the turn. The ski will not bend early, and you will probably wind up pushing the ski to an edge. So try to get that feeling from skating of the rolling of the foot and lower leg into the turn. And follow it up with the continued tipping in the finish from the J turn. You should feel flow from the bottom of the turn into the top of the next turn,
On the fore/aft issue, realize that to stay centered on the ski, the body has to be perpendicular to the slope. So, as you start to turn into the fall line, you need to move the body forward to keep up with he skis and to achieve the perpendicular relationship. And as the skis come out of the fall line and start to travel across the hill, your body will need to move a bit back to keep the relationships proper. Just another thought to help with the fore/aft balance issues.

This will not be an easy set of habits to change. Your current movement patterns have worked for you. But learning these new movement patterns will open the door for greater ski performance, and, most importantly, better control in steeps, variable snow conditions, and terrain.

Good luck!
 
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Tim Hodgson

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@jimtransition I have seen you ski in a video you posted a few years ago. IIRC you are a phenomenal technical edge-to-edge skier in the tradition of Jonathan Ballou and Reilly McGlashan. Your description was very helpful for the carved type of turn you are making. Thank you.

@Skisailor, @Erik Timmerman, @LiquidFeet, @SSSdave, and others, I wonder if the place that the foot balances in the boot is different for a flatter, more steered turn than a pure carved turn?

In other words, is feeling the entire foot more critical when we use the edge of the entire length of ski vs. steering the tip of the ski?

And maybe letting the tails slide around, say in moguls or trees or other conditions?
 
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Erik Timmerman

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Still, I need to feel pressure on my heel to get the ski to turn around my foot rather than around the tip of the ski. And like @jimtransition, I work the ski from the front to the back often.

Still, I'm in the camp that you need to be able to feel the whole foot. I'm also not a fan of pinning the shin to the front of the boot, or, for that matter, keeping the ankle angle constant. I'm finding a lot more performance in my skiing by using my ankles, which control 97% of the mass of the body...

Mike

Do you feel that you have to work the back of the boot to use the tail of the ski at the end of the turn. I agree that you should use the whole ski, but I don't feel myself coming off the cuff at the end of the turn. At the same time, I don't feel myself using the front of the boot particularly hard while using the front of the ski.
 
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Tim Hodgson

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Please carry on! We are heading out to ski Deer Valley now to experiment with all you have suggested. As a musical interlude please let me leave you with Smiles on Faces which with safety, fun and learning is one of our jobs as instructors:



And this is about what I am about to do: (Pray my jewels and learn my lessons from you all):



And this is a HUGE SHOUTOUT to the line cook crew who were playing it at Snowbird on Sunday:



We are so lucky to be able to love this life of skiing that we do.
 

bbinder

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Do you feel that you have to work the back of the boot to use the tail of the ski at the end of the turn. I agree that you should use the whole ski, but I don't feel myself coming off the cuff at the end of the turn. At the same time, I don't feel myself using the front of the boot particularly hard while using the front of the ski.
There seems to be a point in transition where my skis ‘squirt’ out from under me as my body moves down the hill and my skis move laterally. It seems that that I am coming off of the cuff of the boot for that moment. Is this wrong?
 

Erik Timmerman

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There seems to be a point in transition where my skis ‘squirt’ out from under me as my body moves down the hill and my skis move laterally. It seems that that I am coming off of the cuff of the boot for that moment. Is this wrong?

I don't think so. A matter of degree of course. "Out from under me" could definitely be bad!

I ask these questions not because I think anyone here is wrong, but because I think that a lot of the time there is a difference between what we really feel and what logic tells us we should feel. If I'm using the back of my ski, I must be back on my foot and back on the cuff. Not necessarily!
 

oldschoolskier

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What's the difference? I don't see one.
How you balance in a boot alone without influence of binding and skis is different. This applies more so for someone has to ask (generally less experienced) compared to someone as yourself (or myself) that can feel and understand the differences. Additionally, stationary vs on slope moving us different.
 

Chris V.

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So my question is: Where in the boot should my feet balance?

Good topic.

A consensus has emerged in this thread, but perhaps my personal experience will contribute to the discussion. A shop that does extremely detailed alignment evaluation and measurements recently made new footbeds for me. These were designed to furnish additional support to my soles where needed to promote my ability to balance on one foot, while allowing adequate freedom of movement of the small joints and muscles inside the boots. Having been on them for a few days now, I believe this equipment change will be extremely helpful in enabling the development of my skills.

Fundamentally, what I think we seek is to maintain contact with the full sole of the foot throughout the turn cycle, even as we move our balance from side to side and fore-aft. If our equipment is creating sharp pressure points, our brains will be distracted by pain and efforts to avoid pain, and will be inhibited in processing the information the other places on our feet are sending. If our equipment doesn't allow for transmitting forces through and receiving feedback from certain parts of our feet, that too will limit us.

Tim, your use of the word "balance" puts the focus where it belongs. We see and hear advice on movements to make, on where to exert forces or pressure. But none of that wiil result in quality skiing unless it leads to balance. Take the typical intermediate student being asked to lift the uphill ski and traverse on the downhill ski. Briefly lifting the one ski and then falling right back onto it doesn't count as completing the task. Sustainable balance is the skill that the skier needs to develop. The concept is the same for virtually any other drill you'd care to name.

That balance has to take place on the soles of our feet, inside the boots. That's our point of interaction with our environment. That's where we have the ability to make fine adjustments. That's where we have lots of nerve endings. Our knees, hips, arms, and so forth are involved, but there's nothing pushing back on them but air. (One hopes.)

So I'll agree with others, maintain communication between the whole foot and the snow. Beyond that, there's no single correct answer. Balance will shift laterally on each foot as you turn right and left. There will be fore-aft shifts in the distribution of forces. There are different techniques and different goals. Ski two-footed or one-footed? I don't care. It all comes from the same place. Be pivoty or be edgy? I don't care. Same principle. I'm not one to crush the cuffs, but if that's something you like, I think you still want to be starting from that same centered place, and having the ability to establish the balance you seek on your FEET, not just levering the cuffs with gross motor movements.

It's my view that most skiers need to play more. Be a kid again. Why are you skiing? Isn't it supposed to be fun? Just go out and try stuff. Mess with the terrain. Experiment with different snow surfaces. Yes, discover what you need to do to BALANCE in all those situations. You don't learn by doing the same damn thing over and over. You learn by trying different things.

Related: I am wondering if my purchase of RC130 flex Lange boots was best for me at my new 193-195 lbs. naked, 5' 10 3/4" height.

Do they fit? Do they create angles appropriate to YOUR anatomy? If so, I'm betting they'll be fine. If not, do something about it! Adjustments likely possible. Put yourself in the hands of experts.
 

SSSdave

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I wear 2012 Lange RS110 SC boots and in addition to the regular strap use a Booster Strap. Also install the original 1980's nylon impregnated cork Superfeet footbed I've used in all boots. To pressure skis, I shin pressure the boot tongue that is the classic process with Lange boots shells. Doing so results in a momentary looseness at the back of the leg against the boot liner and shell, but that is good because it allows easier extension recovery without resistance.

I do like practicing at times on groomers initiating short turns with a focus on more initial pressure to the front inside edge of my weighted ski, big toe through instep arch. As my turns continues towards maximum compression, that pressure point moves back to the full foot centrally balanced at instep arch allowing maximum transmission of forces up the shaft of the leg. As I sometime relate, that helps this person become familiar with that feeling as it naturally tends to keep my countering upper body forward that can be a struggle in moguls.
 

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