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Where in the Boot to Balance?

François Pugh

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I read the CARV footbed sensor thread and it seems like it could be a useful tool, but the resulting data would not be helpful to me since I don't know what the goal is, in other words,

I think I read that Mikaela Shiffrin said something like "Only perfect practice makes perfect skiing," and personally I cannot "perfectly practice" if I don't know what the goal is. On the flip side, I have heard it said that "Practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent." So,

Where in the Boot Should I Balance?

We skied hard at Alta/Snowbird for the past four days including yesterday which had a delightful foot of new powder with crust underneath off piste (and on hard snow primarily on groomers the prior three days). And we are now at Deer Valley. (All IKON pass.)

These last four days I have been working with a Squaw Valley Level III long-time friend in our core ski buddies group who was coaching us how to ski flatter, feet-together, two-footed, equal edging, equal weighted, more forward, knees slightly bent, heels back, always in balance and ripping -- somewhat regardless of steepness and terrain.

I have surmised that when I can do it, this method results in less overall physical stress on my body than my one-footed, outside-edge-to-outside-edge, flex-to-release, lateral carving style, which I have been trying to perfect the last 15 years.

I like this two-footed skiing method allot, but it is definitely a different type of skiing than edge-to-edge skiing and requires fore aft and lateral balance which our goal is to achieve by as little friction as possible.

If you saw our friend skiing, you would definitely know that he is a Level III cert.

So my question is: Where in the boot should my feet balance?

1. Where and when on the footbed?

2. Where and when on the cuff?

3. What type of ski are you talking about? Wasp waisted tip to tail cambered carver or 100cm tip and tail rockered ski?

When you answer, please describe the type of turn you are referring to -- i.e., a carved turn or a flatter ski steered turn or a pivot type turn* -- and to what phase of the turn you are referring.

(*BTW, I am not sure that a pivot is really a type of turn at all but rather a redirection of the skis to which a linear or turning force is then added...)

Related: I am wondering if my purchase of RC130 flex Lange boots was best for me at my new 193-195 lbs. naked, 5' 10 3/4" height. However, despite their apparent stiffness to me, I have been working on keeping constant cuff contact wth at least slight cuff pressure, and then adding more cuff pressure to bite the tips during turn initiation. I consider that cuff pressure to be a form of "balance," so please include that in your discussion too.

I am feeling what I think is anterior compartment syndrome pain (outside lateral to the shins not shin bang) as a result of my new relationship with the cuffs. A doctor we are skiing with says I could be cutting off blood circulation, but I think I am just not used to using cuff pressure. But for the first time I have been able to flex my boots, so I will continue to work on cuff pressure. What do you think? For what type of turn and what turn phase?

And I am practicing balancing on the ball of my feet to the front of my arch. And trying to prevent my balance from moving to my heels at the completion of my turns. What do you think? For what type of turn and what turn phase?

P.S. @LiquidFeet must be bored because she encouraged me to post this thread. My guess is that she ordered a whole bunch of popcorn to watch the fireworks.

P.P.S. If you think this is a stupid question, just remember what my PSIA Examiner told me during my Level II cert. exam: "Remember Tim, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people asking questions..."
When I first saw this post I wanted to reply, but didn't have the time. The longer I waited the more the thread grew, and the more time I would need to properly address your questions in context with the other posts. Strangely enough my original thoughts did not change after reading through three pages.

1. At your weight 130 Flex is not too stiff.
2. You are asking a question with no real good answer. Instead of trying to "balance" in one part of the boot or another, following current dogma, you should be experimenting by changing your balance point, feeling what makes a difference and what difference it makes. You have to teach your self where to balance and when to balance there.

I'm no ski instructor, and I have no doubt that many of the other posters ski better than I do (especially when it comes to classical short radius turns), but I do have some experience. I first began experimenting with fore-aft balance a few decades ago in a private lesson. When the instructor noticed that I had no speed control and suggested he teach me how to make short radius turns to control my speed, I blew my chance at it, and instead told him I had no interest in learning how to ski slowly, and could he please teach me how to carve cleaner turns and thereby ski faster. It was a good lesson. He pointed out I was losing most by skidding the front of my skis at the start of my turns and I needed to pressure the front of my skis more. After working on that for a while and feeling like I was doing pretty good, he pointed out that now with all my weight forward, my tails were slipping a bit at the end of my turns. My challenge for a good many years was moving my "balance" to where it was needed at the instant, while keeping me in a position to be able to do so.

I have considerable experience on 70 m speed skis, and 13 m SL skis and many skis in between, mostly clean carved turns, although I've been motivated to learn short radius turns in the last decade or so. The same applies to all types of turns and all types of skis - Change things up and teach yourself; broaden your experience and learn from it.

When you have speed you add momentum to gravity and the forces grow exponentially (to the power of 2 actually). There are many ways to pressure the ski. The first two that come to mind, through the bottom of the foot (predominant in the days of leather lace-up boots), by levering against the front of the boot (predominant in race boots). I find it very seldom that I need to lever the boot to the extent that I take pressure off my heel, but never say never.

What matters is the net force put through the ski onto the snow and what that force profile looks like (imagine plotting x being distance from front tip of ski to tail of ski and Y being pressure), that force profile depends on many things, but you don't need to be an engineer to manipulate it. You can feel what your are doing and where you are directing that force. Ok, it helps to be an engineer to imagine the line of action of the net force you are exerting on the snow and know the equal and opposite force is accelerating you.

You need to play with directing your force more forward, centered, and more rearward and feel the difference it makes.

For what it's worth, years ago instructors following their training advocated balance on balls of feet, but today, instructors I've talked to say the word from on high is to balance through the middle of the arch. Probably due to the change in equipment (more side cut), I'll wager.

I will point out one pitfall to avoid. Many folks TRY to put their weight forward, put their weight or balance on the ball of the foot, and end up pushing themselves back by pushing on the ball of their foot. Pushing down and forward makes a skier move back, it's harder to put pressure on the front of your (generic your) skis when you (generic you) are in the back seat.
 

Mike King

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This last part about "toes pointing at the sky" can mean a couple things and I want to make sure that I understand this in the context that you meant. My youngest daughter, for whatever reason, while a really powerful skier, pulls her toes up, but in doing so engages her quads constantly. Consequently, she gets muscle fatigue very early in the day. I don't think that's what you meant.

Nope. Anatomically, as you rotate the lower leg into the turn, which tips the foot on the medial arch (outside foot0 and lateral arch (inside foot), the foot actually rotates to the outside of the turn. So, a way of thinking of the tipping movement is to point the foot at the ski, which will tip the foot and, consequentially, the lower leg.

The way I think of my stance is to balance on a "fulcrum point", behind the ball of the foot and slightly to the center. From that position I can apply pressure in any direction without changing my body position, I think using the close fit of my ski boots as leverage. The underside of my toes are properly supported so I can press down with my toes when needed, and in general tend to be very light on the cuff of my boots, buckling them only enough so I am close to all the sides of the cuff shaft so that I can apply leverage when needed, but not relying as much on the cuff for leverage as some. I think my fulcrum point is just lightly behind where it's located in the illustration.

View attachment 96606

Interesting. Tom Gellie has a completely flat orthotic, but he attached it to a carbon fiber foot bed that had a bump close to your x. This allows the footbed to tip laterally around the point in your diagram. He got the footbed from a sprint (running) coach...

Mike
 

vindibona1

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Nope. Anatomically, as you rotate the lower leg into the turn, which tips the foot on the medial arch (outside foot0 and lateral arch (inside foot), the foot actually rotates to the outside of the turn. So, a way of thinking of the tipping movement is to point the foot at the ski, which will tip the foot and, consequentially, the lower leg.

I just didn't know how he meant it. But you're right... My daughter skis incorrectly but it a stubborn one. Can't tell her anything. I don't think of pointing my feet anywhere. I know the turn shape I want to make, twitch my feet to start the turn and edge/steer as needed. Of course there are moments that I want to get my skis up on edge as far as they can go. I just think of showing the bottoms of my skis to the trees.



Interesting. Tom Gellie has a completely flat orthotic, but he attached it to a carbon fiber foot bed that had a bump close to your x. This allows the footbed to tip laterally around the point in your diagram. He got the footbed from a sprint (running) coach..
Mike
I'm not sure how old you are, but a few decades ago the Caber Boot Company produced a boot board with a "bean" on the bottom that allowed it to "rock". At the time I thought it was ludicrous as did most skiers. It never sold and I think only lasted one season. In hindsight it was probably ingenious, but at the time boot fitters who were making custom footbeds were obsessed with filling up the gap at the arch, were largely inflexible, made of cork, which IMO was counter-productive to how a foot should function in a ski boot. FWIW, my first custom insole was made (I think) in 1977 by Sven Coomer himself, with one of the first Superfeet insoles. It never really worked for me, nor did the second Superfeet insole I had made. My current insoles are Sidas, with a few special tweaks of my own. Don't laugh... It just works. Note the dimple right about where I indicated it on the illustration. The tape over the outside toes needs to be taken down a layer or two in my new boots.

SkiBoot_orthotic.jpg
 

Mike King

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Being an instructor who advocates, teaches and skis with the ball of the foot as home base (by this I mean where my weight is centered), I am consistently amazed at how different others' perceptions and experiences are with this aspect of fore-aft balance. In the spirit of fostering understanding, here are some of my personal "truths" about skiing with this area of the foot as home base:

- My foot is always relaxed and completely in contact with the bottom of the boot sole
- I consistently feel the whole foot from tippy toes to heel and I use the whole foot to balance
- The BoF home base absolutely puts me over the sweet spot of my ski from which it is easiest to pivot or add rotation in steered turns
- The BoF home base is equally effective for carved turns, allowing more precise control of my edge angles
- I can easily pressure the ski from tip to tail at any time during a turn from this balance location
- I have never had students have this balance point affect their ability to dorsiflex (?!!!) (An important teaching cue is to make sure they understand that they should not be "pushing" on the ball of the foot, but rather, that they should arrange their CoM - using relative flexion/extension of ankles, knees and hips - so that the weight centers at that location).
- Balancing at this location does not lead to heel pushing or tails washing out
- Balancing at this location for students tends to lead to fewer moments of backseat skiing (especially for those who are not in the kind of physical shape to be able to muscle their way forward in a pinch)
- Balancing at this location is effective and extremely efficient - no quad fatigue ever
- In steeps and bumps, balancing here absolutely allows me to make quicker, more nuanced balancing movements (because this part of the foot is anatomically designed to articulate in such a way as to allow movement in any direction - and why it is so important as the home base for most sports which involve movement).

I would never be so bold as to tell others that they are doing something "wrong". (!!!) I teach what I believe to be techniques that are more or less effective and more or less efficient. My experience in my personal skiing and in success with positive feedback form my students is my measuring stick. We are all free to find what works best for us, which will also be influenced by the terrain we typically ski and the types and varieties of turns we like to make.
@Skisailor, I've been skiing with a former Danish demo team member and multiple time powder 8 champion. He's been working on me to move aft on the ski. Recently, I bought the "Carv" digital system, and what it is telling me about where I am on the ski is spot on with his coaching -- I'm too far forward.

I don't ski on the ball of the foot, but have been using the heel as a reference point. And even with a focus on the heel and feeling the ski turn around the heel, I'm still a bit forward on the ski.

I suspect if you ask Ursula, she will suggest you move aft on the ski. And if you get a digital tool such as the Carv unit, I suspect it will also suggest that a place other that the ball of the foot would be a better place to look for balance.

Another way to look at the issue: on the ball of the foot might be a great place for mobility, but it is a weak place for stability. Yet what we seek in high performance skiing is mobility and stability. I'll suggest that you experiment with attempting to use a spot a bit closer to the heel to see what effect it has on both your ability to turn the ski as well as to be stable. A place closer to the heel will likely result in higher ski performance as well, as measured by the tail following the same trajectory as the tip.

Mike
 

Skisailor

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@Skisailor, I've been skiing with a former Danish demo team member and multiple time powder 8 champion. He's been working on me to move aft on the ski. Recently, I bought the "Carv" digital system, and what it is telling me about where I am on the ski is spot on with his coaching -- I'm too far forward.

I don't ski on the ball of the foot, but have been using the heel as a reference point. And even with a focus on the heel and feeling the ski turn around the heel, I'm still a bit forward on the ski.

I suspect if you ask Ursula, she will suggest you move aft on the ski. And if you get a digital tool such as the Carv unit, I suspect it will also suggest that a place other that the ball of the foot would be a better place to look for balance.

Another way to look at the issue: on the ball of the foot might be a great place for mobility, but it is a weak place for stability. Yet what we seek in high performance skiing is mobility and stability. I'll suggest that you experiment with attempting to use a spot a bit closer to the heel to see what effect it has on both your ability to turn the ski as well as to be stable. A place closer to the heel will likely result in higher ski performance as well, as measured by the tail following the same trajectory as the tip.

Mike

Hi Mike.

Kinda late so I’ll just say - I’ve done a lot of experimentation actually. Skiing from the BoF does not in any way compromise the ability of a skier to have the tail of the ski follow in the precise trajectory as the tip. I have found that this is a common misconception however.

More importantly, Ursula absolutely teaches skiing from the BoF - that’s how she taught and coached me and that’s what she teaches her students in her 3 X 3 X 3 teaching system for which she won a Divisional award.

After trying it out in my personal skiing and then using it in my own teaching, I became convinced by the evidence in front of me. I can assure you, she would never want me to move any farther aft. Many of the ideas I espouse are hers, cobbled together as a result of her World Cup career and 45 years of teaching experience.

I’m sure the type of skiing one does has some influence on these choices as well. As does how much we as skiers, and teachers of recreational skiers, prioritize efficiency.
 

Skisailor

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With regard to the interesting issue of mobility vs. stability, how would I detect this reduced stability that you say is a concern? I don't feel a stability issue in my own skiing. And when Ursula carves high speed GS turns down the very long, very steep bowls off our peak at Big Sky, I don't think she perceives any stability problems. Plus centering over the BoF has the added benefit that when she arrives at the bottom of the non-stop run, she is not even breathing hard while I see clinicians in our ski school who are 40 years her junior having to take a few moments to breathe. This is the kind of evidence I am consistently confronted with.
 

Rod9301

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With regard to the interesting issue of mobility vs. stability, how would I detect this reduced stability that you say is a concern? I don't feel a stability issue in my own skiing. And when Ursula carves high speed GS turns down the very long, very steep bowls off our peak at Big Sky, I don't think she perceives any stability problems. Plus centering over the BoF has the added benefit that when she arrives at the bottom of the non-stop run, she is not even breathing hard while I see clinicians in our ski school who are 40 years her junior having to take a few moments to breathe. This is the kind of evidence I am consistently confronted with.
How sure are you that she balanced on the balls off her feet?

Anyway, when she was skiing, 25 years ago, racers had much lower edge angles and therefore lower g forces.

With today's skis, the g forces are do high that you have to do stacked, ie weight under the tibia.
 

Skisailor

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How sure are you that she balanced on the balls off her feet?

Anyway, when she was skiing, 25 years ago, racers had much lower edge angles and therefore lower g forces.

With today's skis, the g forces are do high that you have to do stacked, ie weight under the tibia.

100% sure she is on the BoF.

I’m sure you’re right about racing being different 25 years ago. But most of our ski school still can’t keep up with her.

And it begs the question - what is it that we are actually aspiring to do in our skiing? Be little racers? Or ski all over the mountain? To each his own on that of course.
 

JESinstr

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@Skisailor Do you have any videos of Ursula skiing? I did a search and the only thing I came up with is this image from her Linkedin page.
1584289730219.png

If you say that this is an example of skiing on the balls of your feet, then I now understand that this is all about vocabulary and anatomical misunderstandings.

Although only a moment in time, my only critique would be to stop smiling at the camera and look where you want to go.. you can continue to smile however!
 

dbostedo

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So I'm not sure I've followed everything here, though I've read it all.

Part of the problem, I think, in talking about skiing on the balls of your feet it that - for me at least - it means lifting your heel. Anytime anyone talks about it being similar to the ready or balanced position in other sports, that's what I think of. Every other sport I've played, being balanced on the balls of your feet is good, and it means your heel is in the air (at least a tiny bit), or at least not firmly planted.

What I think maybe I'm gleaning here, for anyone saying they ski on the balls of their feet, is that you want your heel planted firmly in the boot, but your weight in a place where your CoM would be over the balls of your feet?
 

Mike King

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It's simple biomechanics, really. There are two tripods of support in the feet. The larger tripod of support is formed by the heel, first metatarsal and fifth metatarsal -- these are joined but the medial, lateral, and transverse arches of the foot. The second tripod can be accessed by rolling forward on the foot to access the frontal tripod formed by the first metatarsal, fifth metatarsal, and the big toe. This tripod is much smaller than the primary tripod. A smaller tripod is less stable than a larger one -- basic physics.

An alternative might be to attempt to balance across the transverse arch, but that's even less stable than the smaller tripod.

So, it's basic biomechanics and physics.

Mike
 

vindibona1

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When you have speed you add momentum to gravity and the forces grow exponentially (to the power of 2 actually). There are many ways to pressure the ski. The first two that come to mind, through the bottom of the foot (predominant in the days of leather lace-up boots), by levering against the front of the boot (predominant in race boots). I find it very seldom that I need to lever the boot to the extent that I take pressure off my heel, but never say never.

You need to play with directing your force more forward, centered, and more rearward and feel the difference it makes.


For what it's worth, years ago instructors following their training advocated balance on balls of feet, but today, instructors I've talked to say the word from on high is to balance through the middle of the arch. Probably due to the change in equipment (more side cut), I'll wager.

I will point out one pitfall to avoid. Many folks TRY to put their weight forward, put their weight or balance on the ball of the foot, and end up pushing themselves back by pushing on the ball of their foot. Pushing down and forward makes a skier move back, it's harder to put pressure on the front of your (generic your) skis when you (generic you) are in the back seat.

I'm not sure why I didn't pick up on your reply earlier and agree with a lot that you've said. But you said some interesting things that I think might be discussed further.

>>>There are many ways to pressure the ski. >>>
Pressure control from the bottom of the foot is not out of vogue, but an essential tool- and the closest connection to the snow. I find cuff leverage to be useful AFTER foot leverage has been exhausted. Today's skis, now with rocker tips need less and less forward pressure than in past decades. Higher stiffer boots did not replace the skills developed in old leather boots, but provided additional tools available at the skier's disposal.

>>> I find it very seldom that I need to lever the boot to the extent that I take pressure off my heel, but never say never.>>>
I find that I'm really not aware of any specific pressure at the heel, but a very balanced foot and balanced pressure. Toward the end of the season I've been playing with increasing heel pressure and find it useful in some situations, or at the end of some turns, but for the most part I think my foot remains fairly neutral throughout, pressuring areas of the foot; but more importantly using the rolling of the foot (some might think if it as pressure) into the forward side-wall of the boot, creating leverage and stability. I find that cuff leverage is my secondary go-to for that extra tip pressure when needed. But the geometry of most modern skis require so much less of it than back in the day, and our bread-and-butter turns are different now as well.

>>>You need to play with directing your force more forward, centered, and more rearward and feel the difference it makes.>>>
Absolutely. Everybody's physiology and body structure is different and the geometry of the boots play into this as well. I modified my foot illustration to better show my concept of where my mass is balanced in my foot. By centering on this critical spot, pressure in all directions is available with a minimal amount of movement of the foot- and almost no upper body movement required to apply pressure in any direction at any time.

Ski_balance_point_modified_SM.jpg
 

Skisailor

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So I'm not sure I've followed everything here, though I've read it all.

Part of the problem, I think, in talking about skiing on the balls of your feet it that - for me at least - it means lifting your heel. Anytime anyone talks about it being similar to the ready or balanced position in other sports, that's what I think of. Every other sport I've played, being balanced on the balls of your feet is good, and it means your heel is in the air (at least a tiny bit), or at least not firmly planted.

What I think maybe I'm gleaning here, for anyone saying they ski on the balls of their feet, is that you want your heel planted firmly in the boot, but your weight in a place where your CoM would be over the balls of your feet?

I know. The whole “your heels must be lifted” thing is a common misconception. Please see the bullets from my earlier post. I am talking about where your weight is actually centered.
 

Skisailor

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@Skisailor Do you have any videos of Ursula skiing? I did a search and the only thing I came up with is this image from her Linkedin page.
View attachment 96725
If you say that this is an example of skiing on the balls of your feet, then I now understand that this is all about vocabulary and anatomical misunderstandings.

Although only a moment in time, my only critique would be to stop smiling at the camera and look where you want to go.. you can continue to smile however!

Yup. I guarantee you she is over the balls of her feet - even in this throw away turn where she is smiling at one of our Crystal images photographers who she knows. :)

I’m not sure if I have any videos.
 

Steve

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@Mike King your posts imply that no matter what she says, you are sure that you know how to ski better than she does. Almost a mansplaining approach. Have you skied together? Perhaps her way is better?

But more likely it's just different, there is not one "right" way to ski. Read some Joubert and report back. Lemaster has 2 pages on upper body rotation. And even if those two examples do fit within your narrow definition of the proper way to do things, there are plenty of others that don't. Interski kind of proves that.

Respect your way, but respect others too. Please.
 

JESinstr

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So I'm not sure I've followed everything here, though I've read it all.

Part of the problem, I think, in talking about skiing on the balls of your feet it that - for me at least - it means lifting your heel. Anytime anyone talks about it being similar to the ready or balanced position in other sports, that's what I think of. Every other sport I've played, being balanced on the balls of your feet is good, and it means your heel is in the air (at least a tiny bit), or at least not firmly planted.

What I think maybe I'm gleaning here, for anyone saying they ski on the balls of their feet, is that you want your heel planted firmly in the boot, but your weight in a place where your CoM would be over the balls of your feet?

Regarding your first paragraph, you are absolutely accurate. But as far as I know, any sport that is based on the ready position is a sport that anticipates iminent locomotion. Other than the act of skating, Skiing does not. Skiing is about negotiating your mass with a moving platform and a single point of balance such as the balls of the feet makes little sense to me.

Many instructors use the term "Ready Position" I think they say that because of the activation of the Flex Complex (ankles, knees and hips) but this is unfortunate because to your point, that most perceptions include a raising of the heel.

The front of the heel and the back of the balls of the feet create two solid anchor points (ok 3 if you subscribe to the tripod view) to manage our fore and aft dynamic balance by sensing tension in the arch. This is a very effective method IMO.

But this is not automatic. One needs to "train the brain" to adopt this new methodology and this is why I devote the first half hour of a beginner's lesson to this new form of balance.... with great success BTW.
 

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