When not to start the turn early?

[Tony S]

With all due respect to other opinions, ski racers, especially in GS are turning the ski more, not less, within the same distance traveled and therefore shortening the transitions to almost nothing. This allows for more and better pressure, edging and speed management throughout the turn which also transfers very well to free skiing medium and long radius turns. Unless we are pivoting for speed control or redirection, there is never a reason to discontinue or delay rolling/active tipping of the ski outside of holding max tipping through apex. Though, don't take it from me:

Cool video. Thanks. We saw that billiard diagram up thread. Makes sense.

I'm guessing Rat wouldn't disagree with anything in the clip. Almost certain he didn't mean that we should go for what Kipp calls "emergency use only" desperation pressure.

In any case what I was thinking with my comment came from a beer league context not a WC context. In my league the duffers are all late and straight and dirty and slow. Forget them. The second most common thing, among the slightly better group including me (usually), is that we're so high and pretty with our big clean turns that we're slow compared with the folks who actually know how to race. Those folks spend more time on flatter skis bringing it down the hill. Remember, this course is on an easy blue run. There is only so much speed and therefore pressure available; you have to conserve it. So the fast people are rolling up onto the edge, kinda late but not TOO late, bending the ski around the turn with a lot of authority, then getting off it for an extended light-pressure phase. At last that's the way it seems to me.

 

[hbear]

Rise line and rules of 10.
Best racers make the shortest/smallest arc as it’s faster, they aren’t on real pressure until they hit the rise line. Those that cross the rise line closest to the gate AND can make the smallest arc ski the shortest course.

For racing, straightest line to the bottom is quickest (shortest distance travelled) provided one can maintain speed....however this is limited by skier ability. The skier that spends more time in the fall line will also be skiing faster.

So with that in mind, don’t confuse turn with arc. Don’t confuse short transition with long arc, and don’t confuse being on edge as being on pressure.

 

[Average Joe]

Rise line and rules of 10.
Best racers make the shortest/smallest arc as it’s faster, they aren’t on real pressure until they hit the rise line.

So with that in mind, don’t confuse turn with arc. Don’t confuse short transition with long arc, and don’t confuse being on edge as being on pressure.

Agreed-
Takes very little pressure in the top of the turn to make a vast difference. Getting them rolled up in the high C trumps pressure.

 

[K2 Rat]

Cool video. Thanks. We saw that billiard diagram up thread. Makes sense.

I'm guessing Rat wouldn't disagree with anything in the clip. Almost certain he didn't mean that we should go for what Kipp calls "emergency use only" desperation pressure.

In any case what I was thinking with my comment came from a beer league context not a WC context. In my league the duffers are all late and straight and dirty and slow. Forget them. The second most common thing, among the slightly better group including me (usually), is that we're so high and pretty with our big clean turns that we're slow compared with the folks who actually know how to race. Those folks spend more time on flatter skis bringing it down the hill. Remember, this course is on an easy blue run. There is only so much speed and therefore pressure available; you have to conserve it. So the fast people are rolling up onto the edge, kinda late but not TOO late, bending the ski around the turn with a lot of authority, then getting off it for an extended light-pressure phase. At last that's the way it seems to me.

Of course I was not suggesting one goes for the emergency pressure below the gate. Can’t fiinish the turn early with direction done by the panel and move to the new ski if you are pressuring below.

And yes, I agree transitions, in the sense of a weight transfer to the new outside ski, are extremely quick. If you can consistently move to new ski early, chances are you will be fast.

When I said “long transitions” , I meant that one has to be patient and not be turning the skis too early. So, there will be a longer period of time between actual turns or direction change of the skis.

If you look at Vonn, her weight transfer occurs all in the 4th figure. But then she is patient and progressively rolling the skis on edge and moving forward and inside the turn without pressuring/turning the skis. She intersects rise line with her skis pointing out and away from the panel to allow turn shape back and starts to pressure. Most of her pressure will be in the fall line ( 8th -10th figure) and creates a relatively short arc.

Ron brings up an interesting point about the later weight transfer or White Pass type turn. We do see Marcel use this quite often and he is pretty good . But for most of us, my opinion is that we want to master moving to the new ski early first.