When not to start the turn early?

[dbostedo]

not true, you create big angles thru tipping, if you pressure the ski, it will be harder to develop the big angles.

Please forgive my ignorant questions, but if I tip and create big angles, and don't have the requisite speed and pressure build, don't I fall over? In other words, the turn shape and consequent pressure are related to the edge angles. I can't, for instance, set large edge angles, but continue to go straight down the fall line.

 

[Philpug]

We just spent a couple of days at Masterfit talking about bootfitting but Matt Schiller, owner of Park City Bootroom was doing a seminar on race boots but he also touched on this subject. He drew the arc of a turn (black), and then said imagine if that was a wall and you were foing to bounce a ball off of it..where would you want the trejectory to go, back up the hill (red) or down the hill (green). I never thought of it this way.

 

[Josh Matta]

Please forgive my ignorant questions, but if I tip and create big angles, and don't have the requisite speed and pressure build, don't I fall over? In other words, the turn shape and consequent pressure are related to the edge angles. I can't, for instance, set large edge angles, but continue to go straight down the fall line.

If you COM falls inside of your BOS with out centrifugal force to hold you up yes your fall over..... or you can use hip angulation to keep your COM from going to far inside.

You can tip huge angles standing still and still remain upright, the issue is when the COM leaves the BOS.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Please forgive my ignorant questions, but if I tip and create big angles, and don't have the requisite speed and pressure build, don't I fall over? In other words, the turn shape and consequent pressure are related to the edge angles. I can't, for instance, set large edge angles, but continue to go straight down the fall line.

If you COM falls inside of your BOS with out centrifugal force to hold you up yes your fall over..... or you can use hip angulation to keep your COM from going to far inside.... You can tip huge angles standing still and still remain upright, the issue is when the COM leaves the BOS.

Here you go. An illustration of what Josh just described. Huuge angles. This guy (Hirscher)
is indeed going fast, but he could hold these high edge angles standing in the kitchen not
moving.... and so could you. That's because of how he's positioning his upper body to balance
at this moment over that inside foot.

He's just released his outside ski by lifting it, and he's continuing to travel on the little toe edge
of his inside ski. Not much snow spray off that inside ski... and it's not bent. This is the moment
of float, when he's light on his ski(s).

 

[JTurner]

This thread has been a fun read, lots of good technique discussion here, and I think it's important to distinguish between the phases of the turn when applying a lot of what's been said. For example, inclining ("tipping" when applied correctly) can work to build high angles when done above the fall line and before outside ski pressure builds, but it usually only works in that first phase. And hip angulation and/or counterbalancing comes into play in the fall line, but wouldn't be good too early in a turn, unless of course you don't have any speed yet, then you may need to move toward your outside ski to get it to bend.

Anyway, the first and I think most basic answer I thought of to the OP's original question is; when you haven't reached the rise line yet. As has been pointed out, turning too early can cause all sorts of line problems that can make you slower. And remember, a high line still obeying the rise line, is totally different that turning early.

 

[K2 Rat]

. For example, inclining ("tipping" when applied correctly) can work to build high angles when done above the fall line and before outside ski pressure builds, but it usually only works in that first phase.

An example of Vonn building high edge angles before she got to the riseline without much ski pressure yet.

 

[dbostedo]

Here you go. An illustration of what Josh just described. Huuge angles. This guy (Hirscher)
is indeed going fast, but he could hold these high edge angles standing in the kitchen not
moving.... and so could you. That's because of how he's positioning his upper body to balance
at this moment over that inside foot.

He's just released his outside ski by lifting it, and he's continuing to travel on the little toe edge
of his inside ski. Not much snow spray off that inside ski... and it's not bent. This is the moment
of float, when he's light on his ski(s).

Thanks... that's a very cool illustration/example. Perhaps the problem with my perception is that I never seem to see high edge angles like that without someone making high g turns.

Getting high angles like that while standing still, for instance, would necessitate unnatural contortions I'd think.

As you said... he does it when light on the skis. What Rod posts seemed to imply that you can choose to tip at that angle at that time with either a lot of pressure or a little. (That they are independent variables.) And I was thinking you don't really choose that - you use what's there based on speed and the turns you're making. Or you probably fall over.

In other words, would Hirscher ever do that when free skiing wider turns and slower turns? Could he choose to somehow do the same thing with a lot more weight and pressure at that part of the turn? Or would either of those lead to odd/awkward movements?

 

[HardDaysNight]

Thanks... that's a very cool illustration/example. Perhaps the problem with my perception is that I never seem to see high edge angles like that without someone making high g turns.

Getting high angles like that while standing still, for instance, would necessitate unnatural contortions I'd think.

As you said... he does it when light on the skis. What Rod posts seemed to imply that you can choose to tip at that angle at that time with either a lot of pressure or a little. (That they are independent variables.) And I was thinking you don't really choose that - you use what's there based on speed and the turns you're making. Or you probably fall over.

In other words, would Hirscher ever do that when free skiing wider turns and slower turns? Could he choose to somehow do the same thing with a lot more weight and pressure at that part of the turn? Or would either of those lead to odd/awkward movements?

The amount of pressure built in a turn, and the timing of when it comes on, is not really at the option of the skier but is determined by the character (radius, speed and shape) of the turn he’s making. This is, of course, highly influenced by edge angle, i.e., ski tipping. Attempts to create pressure artificially, generally by extending to push on the ski, only result in a temporary pulse of pressure at the expense of limiting edge angles high in the turn and pushing the skiers mass away from the ski screwing up his balance and producing a crappy result.

 

[LiquidFeet]

The amount of pressure built in a turn, and the timing of when it comes on, is not really at the option of the skier but is determined by the character (radius, speed and shape) of the turn he’s making. This is, of course, highly influenced by edge angle, i.e., ski tipping. Attempts to create pressure artificially, generally by extending to push on the ski, only result in a temporary pulse of pressure at the expense of limiting edge angles high in the turn and pushing the skiers mass away from the ski screwing up his balance and producing a crappy result.

That's a refrigerator magnet right there.

 

[Rod9301]

Please forgive my ignorant questions, but if I tip and create big angles, and don't have the requisite speed and pressure build, don't I fall over? In other words, the turn shape and consequent pressure are related to the edge angles. I can't, for instance, set large edge angles, but continue to go straight down the fall line.

This is where angulation and counter come to help so no, you will not fall over.

 

[DoryBreaux]

We just spent a couple of days at Masterfit talking about bootfitting but Matt Schiller, owner of Park City Bootroom was doing a seminar on race boots but he also touched on this subject. He drew the arc of a turn (black), and then said imagine if that was a wall and you were foing to bounce a ball off of it..where would you want the trejectory to go, back up the hill (red) or down the hill (green). I never thought of it this way.
View attachment 57074

I am so stealing this for next time someone tells me that early on the new ski is BS.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Think of turns in this fashion, everything done is to make the turns seem and function as close as a straight line as possible (in racing).

High and/or Early gives you a choice to set up the straightest fastest line.

Low and/or Late can have you chasing turns shedding speed to ensure you make the next one.

This is an extremely simple explanation but it does describe the concept of way this happening. It should be noted that there is balance point between those two to achieve the fastest run (this type of advise I’ll leave to those that can provide the best information, some of which has already been shared). This applies in all disciplines DH, SG, GS and SL. Just the balance of where these “Early” and “Late” limits are set, change.

While this is very speed/race oriented it does apply in everyday skiing as it does give you the best options to select the most efficient and safe turn (think moguls, trees and other skiers to start) even though high speeds are not the key factor, safety and ease of turn are.

 

[sparty]

Second, higher is not the same as earlier, higher is higher.

Thank you for saying that.

Everyone else, please repeat after me:
"A high line is not the same as turning early."
"A high line is not the same as turning early."
"A high line is not the same as turning early."

When you tell athletes to turn earlier, nine times out of ten, they try to add more early pressure in the turn without moving the line up the hill; usually, that results in too much pressure before the rise line, which turns into pinching, double-turning, and all sorts of other mean and nasty things. Of course, sometimes the coach just says "more earlier," without realizing that he/she and the athlete are operating from a mismatching vocabulary, and things just get worse. In reality, that racer needs more elevation—distance above the gate—so that he or she can put the pressure in the fall line and still exit the turn in a good position for the next.

It's also worth noting that releasing a turn earlier is very different from starting a turn earlier.

To the original question, yes, it's a tactical decision once you understand the impact your line choice will have on your speed and position relative not only to the gate you're at but also to the gate three gates down the hill. In a 12-gate beer league course, pinching and running silly-straight may just work, because by the time the line catches you out and you need to jam to make the next gate, you're across the finish line. Take those same 12 gates and set them above a pitch with even moderate offset in a USSA race, and that line that works great for the beer league may just put you in the fence.

As ScotsSkier noted, forcing racers to ski the same course with different elevation is a great way to help them understand (a) what a high/medium/low line is and (b) what happens when they try to ski each of those lines. Setting brushes in the transition zone identifying each line (use the same color for each the whole way down) can be a helpful drill in that regard.

 

[Burton]

Paraphrasing and potentially over-simplifying what a really good coach told me, the cue is not to "turn early," it's choosing where on the rise line you should target to make the start of the turn. In most scenarios, the rounder that the turn needs to be, the higher you aim on the rise line. Of course, there's all sorts of tactical variables to this, but that creates a simple mental image for me to triangulate where to initiate the turn.

 

[K2 Rat]

A lot of good comments in this thread. The goal is really to FINISH the turn early -- i.e. passing the gate with direction done and allowing one to move to the new ski. But is a hard concept for a lot of kids that I have coached --- that they have to be patient and delay starting the turn. If they have been late in the course, they think they need to start the turn earlier. But as it was already mentioned, starting the turn too early will make you late. In certain cases, one has to get outside rise line in order to bring the necessary turn shape back to the gate. Some kids always want to be "turning" and have a hard time understanding that in GS we typically want to have long transitions and short powerful arcs. How high, or how much elevation, one wants to intersect rise line with depends on the set and the ability of the racer. Thus, not everyone tends to be on the same line and some kids need more room above to get the same turn done. A more experienced racer can usually take a steeper angle of attack with less elevation and still finish the turn tight to the gate with direction done.

 

[Tony S]

in GS we typically want to have long transitions and short powerful arcs

Thanks for calling this out.

 

[Tony S]

Occurs to me that it's worth pointing out, for non-racers like @dbostedo who are following this thread actively, that there is an obvious take-away from all this talk about line, etc. The take away is that if you want to accelerate your improvement, do some racing. It's definitely hard on the ego, but there's beer.

 

[Johnny V.]

The take away is that if you want to accelerate your improvement, do some racing. It's definitely hard on the ego, but there's beer.

YUP!

 

[Doby Man]

Thanks for calling this out.

With all due respect to other opinions, ski racers, especially in GS are turning the ski more, not less, within the same distance traveled and therefore shortening the transitions to almost nothing. This allows for more and better pressure, edging and speed management throughout the turn which also transfers very well to free skiing medium and long radius turns. Unless we are pivoting for speed control or redirection, there is never a reason to discontinue or delay rolling/active tipping of the ski outside of holding max tipping through apex. Though, don't take it from me:

 

[Dakine]

With all due respect to other opinions, ski racers, especially in GS are turning the ski more, not less, within the same distance traveled and therefore shortening the transitions to almost nothing. This allows for more and better pressure, edging and speed management throughout the turn which also transfers very well to free skiing medium and long radius turns. Unless we are pivoting for speed control or redirection, there is never a reason to discontinue or delay rolling/active tipping of the ski outside of holding max tipping through apex. Though, don't take it from me:

Great video!