When not to start the turn early?

[Frankly]

Pardon the stupid question but it seems like whenever I watch a ski race or talk to a coach, I am always hearing about starting the turn earlier. For at least ten years now the emphasis has been on pressuring the ski higher and higher up in the arc. I understand why we want to do this and agree but I hear this almost every single time... and in every situation, in soft snow, ice, grippy, etc.

Other than some weird gate combination or stivoting, when wouldn't a racer or performance orientated skier want to be starting their turn as early as physically and physics allow?

 

[James]

Otherwise, you're talking gs?

 

[hbear]

right before a flat section (or transition to flat section), lower line usually results in more exit speed to carry into the flats....

Also depends on where ruts are and how they are shaped (although my experience suggests the ruts are typically lower and late for most amateur racing).

 

[ScotsSkier]

In training I always work on getting my athletes to use a high line. Then when they have got to grips with that we may run drills with high/medium/late lines. I do out this way because once they understand how to run a high line they can then work out when and where they are capable of running lower/later straighter to gain some time based on the set. Whereas if they start with running straight and late it is a LOT of work to get them out of that habit.

 

[Swede]

Pardon the stupid question but it seems like whenever I watch a ski race or talk to a coach, I am always hearing about starting the turn earlier. For at least ten years now the emphasis has been on pressuring the ski higher and higher up in the arc. I understand why we want to do this and agree but I hear this almost every single time... and in every situation, in soft snow, ice, grippy, etc.

Other than some weird gate combination or stivoting, when wouldn't a racer or performance orientated skier want to be starting their turn as early as physically and physics allow?

Sound almost like you talk about technique when you say "pressuring the ski higher in the arch". When someone say 'turn early', it's normally about line and tactics. SS described it very well, I think. The early turn/high line is usually the basics and as one progress a more straight line/turn later tactic is/can be used. You will need more strength and higher angles to ski a low line. As they say: technique dictates line.

 

[Josh Matta]

well you can not pressure the skis earlier in the arc unless your finish the turn stronger and travel up the hill.

You can only manage pressure, its is impossible to create, you can only manage what your choosen path down the hill has given you.

I would say that for every given ski turn in every given situation ski a line that is the speed you want to go and skiing it as faster as possible is preferable, which would also mean you are transition into each turn in offensive manner. I do not even like starting the turn earlier, you are just starting it when appropriate. Even during purposeful defensive tactical skill like a Stem step, stem hop, or rotary push off up the hill you are still doing it at the right time. Delaying it would mean went to far across the hill, and doing it early could mean you hit the exact obstacle you are trying to avoid.

 

[ScotsSkier]

There is another big advantage to a high early line. If you do it properly the turn is complete at the gate and you start the switch there. This means that you don't fall into the classic trap of still fighting gravity and pressuring the ski below the gate, fighting all the crap and ruts that you find there. Instead you basically avoid all that and get early into the next turn. Tactically it can also allow you to be a bit tighter on the gate and find some clean snow. Although of course you need to be careful you don't pinch too much.

 

[James]

are we calling slalom a high early line? Most look like J turns not c's.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/02/21/sports/olympics/womens-slalom-results.html?_r=0

 

[ScotsSkier]

are we calling slalom a high early line? Most look like J turns not c's.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/02/21/sports/olympics/womens-slalom-results.html?_r=0

Good catch James. I was talking primarily about GS. For slalom the turn shape is certainly different. However the concept of being early and having the turn complete and making the switch by the time you are at the gate is the same. I tend to look at a slalom then as only using the first 50-60% of the turn, after that you should be initiating the new one

 

[Swede]

yes it's GS - the "mother"-turn. SL is a version but a little different.

 

[Frankly]

I meant it as technique not strategy, perhaps poorly worded in modern instructor lingo but rolling the edge at 11 or 1 o'clock of the arc.

I'm looking for examples for when you wouldn't want to this? Transitioning onto a flat is a good example. And of course having such rough-fast conditions you physically can not. But when else?

 

[hbear]

I think it's pretty much covered in the posts above.

Not sure what else you are looking for but effectively it's all based on strategy on the course. Technique helps execute strategy.

High or low line is based on strategy. I gave the example of transition to the flats, another could be as part of the line on a delay, etc.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Hmm. Not sure how you could roll it much later. I.e if you wanted to roll the edge at , say, 8 0'clock, how would you get there?...

 

[BGreen]

First of all, this applies specifically to racing. Not to discount high performance skiers, but it's different. There are several things going on, and I think they need to be broken out a bit. First you can easily start the turn too early, and doing so will make you late. I know this seems counter intuitive, but draw a course on a piece of paper, set a fixed arc size with a compass and draw some "turns." Starting the turn too early can cause a lot of problems -- body too close to a gate, double turning, etc. When most coaches tell an athlete to start the turn earlier, really what they are saying is end the previous sooner, get off your edges and have a proper transition. Second, higher is not the same as earlier, higher is higher. Since the minimum turn radius of a ski is relatively fixed, the only way to tighten the line and allow ample time for the next gate/turn is to move the turn up the hill. I used to use early and higher somewhat interchangeably until some of my athletes started taking a line where the turn was too early and too low. I have to admit, I didn't know that was possible until I saw it. Last week, one of my athletes was nearly in tears because she was so slow in a slalom course. In reality, it was the fastest slalom run I had ever seen her ski because she skied a high, tight line. It felt slow because getting on that line, her turns ended earlier and she had more time between gates. When I showed her the timer, she was convinced it wasn't working properly.

As to the question about whether there are times that an athlete wouldn't want to be as early as possible, it kind of depends. It is very easy to over ski a course and take a safer line than is necessary. Also, while being late is never good, it isn't always bad. When I inspect courses with younger athletes, I try to point out sections of the course where staying on a high, early line is more important than skiing clean, and sections of the course where if you get late it is better to ride it out and not panic/where skiing clean is more important than being on the line.

As far as pressuring the ski earlier in the turn, I'm not sure about that. You want to get on the new edges as soon as possible, and you need some pressure to bend the ski into the arc, but by and large pressure happens from a little above the fall line to a little below it. Watching men's GS is a bit weird because what you are seeing is world class athletes trying to make skis that don't really work do something they don't want to do, but you will see pressure only in the fall line.

So how does this apply to skiing outside a course? It really doesn't. For general skiing, early pressure is fine as long as it doesn't prevent you from developing edge angles, but you can't continue to develop edge angle after the ski is pressured (try it). I see a lot of skiers try to pressure early and never fully developing edge angle. If you are in a strong body position, the ski will get enough pressure. For most skiers, it is easier to over pressure than over edge.

 

[skix]

are we calling slalom a high early line? Most look like J turns not c's.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/02/21/sports/olympics/womens-slalom-results.html?_r=0

Browsing old threads I came across this link to an analysis of why Mikaela Shiffrin won the Sochi slalom competition. There's a couple of photo montages included that are amazing.

My favorite montage shows Shiffrins second run. Here's a thumbnail:

Another montage shows a mistake and recovery made in the first run. Here's two frames from that montage:

 

[Rod9301]

A late reply.
I think that trying to pressure the ski early is a mistake. You want to create large edge angles early, but delay the pressure.
Look at marcel's videos and his new outside ski is in the air often in the first part of the turn (which means no pressure), but he has huge angles.

 

[dbostedo]

You want to create large edge angles early, but delay the pressure.

But the two are not mutually exclusive, right? You can only get the high edge angles because the pressure is already building. You can't have an arbitrarily high edge angle combined with an arbitrarily low pressure (larger radius, slower) turn I wouldn't think.

 

[Rod9301]

But the two are not mutually exclusive, right? You can only get the high edge angles because the pressure is already building. You can't have an arbitrarily high edge angle combined with an arbitrarily low pressure (larger radius, slower) turn I wouldn't think.

not true, you create big angles thru tipping, if you pressure the ski, it will be harder to develop the big angles.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Pardon the stupid question but it seems like whenever I watch a ski race or talk to a coach, I am always hearing about starting the turn earlier. For at least ten years now the emphasis has been on pressuring the ski higher and higher up in the arc. I understand why we want to do this and agree but I hear this almost every single time... and in every situation, in soft snow, ice, grippy, etc. ........... Other than some weird gate combination or stivoting, when wouldn't a racer or performance orientated skier want to be starting their turn as early as physically and physics allow? ........... I meant it as technique not strategy, perhaps poorly worded in modern instructor lingo but rolling the edge at 11 or 1 o'clock of the arc. ............ I'm looking for examples for when you wouldn't want to this? Transitioning onto a flat is a good example. And of course having such rough-fast conditions you physically can not. But when else?

Two things here.

One: Be careful about equating "rolling" onto an edge with "pressuring the ski." When skiers talk about "pressuring" a ski, earlier or whenever, often they mean pushing on it. Best not to do that. As Josh says upthread, pressure comes to the ski because of all kinds of things and the skier needs to "manage that pressure" as it arrives - in order to ski the chosen line. If one pushes/presses on a ski to increase pressure, that bit of pressure usually doesn't produce the desired results.

Two: When would one not want to roll onto new edges at 11:00/1:00, above the fall line? When one is pivoting the top half of the turn, that's when. That pivot is done on flattening skis, usually not on a ski that has been rolled onto new edges. A skier can progressively pivot the skis to point downhill before the fall line, then get onto new edges after that, late in the turn. --- So when? Racers doing stivots might count. Skiing bumps and trees at leisurely speeds, sure. Getting down a narrow couloir at non-sponsored speeds can involve intentionally losing altitude on flattening old edges at turn entry to scrub speed. Also, recreational skiers just learning to ski parallel, fearful of new edges above the fall line, will often be taught to progressively rotate the flattened skis to point downhill and allow the hill to create the edging after that. And oh yeah groomer skiers in New England wanting to scrub off speed on steep hard-snow (icy) groomers ....

Skiers who habitually pivot their skis fast at turn entry to point across the hill in the new direction, and resultingly cut off/rush the top of the turn, might fall into this category. But usually their turn mechanics don't produce the grip or speed control they seek. In this case, avoiding early edge engagement is a faulty mechanism. They need to learn to get onto new edges above the fall line and use line and direction to control their speed. That's a biggie.

 

[HardDaysNight]

A late reply.
I think that trying to pressure the ski early is a mistake. You want to create large edge angles early, but delay the pressure.
Look at marcel's videos and his new outside ski is in the air often in the first part of the turn (which means no pressure), but he has huge angles.

This is true and very important. The top of the new turn is used to set up the angles that will result in the ski pressuring you in the fall line. Attempting to pressure the ski too early (or indeed at all!) requires extending at an inappropriate time which limits tipping of the ski and pushes the skier out of balance.