U12 rules changes in an attempt to keep cost down

[patmoore]

All good except the speedsuits. My three grandsons all just got them this past winter and love them. It'd be a major disappointment to them to have to go without. This was the day before the little one got his new suit. They are ages 7, 8, and 11.

 

[James]

Speedsuits are dumb for young kids. They just get cold, and start the long process of looking like a racer instead of getting better. Essentially brain washing. Makes zero difference, and is actually negative. I get they like them.

 

[hbear]

Yes, but in the end it’s all for fun and if that increase the fun for the kids to play the part of racer, and if having a suit increases the passion then so be it.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Yes, but in the end it’s all for fun and if that increase the fun for the kids to play the part of racer, and if having a suit increases the passion then so be it.

If the other kids don't have them, nobody is missing anything.

 

[L&AirC]

If the other kids don't have them, nobody is missing anything.

Bingo!

 

[K2 Rat]

As u12 coach @ Mount Snow Academy in Vermont, I am all for ways of trying to keep the cost of ski racing down. Unfortunately, none of these rules changes will do that.

Skis - this rule will not reduce the amount of skis that parents buy and will just reduce the amount of skis a child can have at a race to one pair. As pointed out earlier, one can easily get around this rule by swapping skis at the lodge. Over the past 3 years, I have had only one athlete with trainers and racers and it is certainly not necessary for u12's. Although I have never recommended it, we have had a few kids bring inspection skis. Sometimes these were twin tips and I have always told them that it is of no help to do your warm-up runs on twin-tips or any all-mtn skis. Although some of our courses are bullet-proof during inspection, all I recommend is the kids inspect with the skis on opposite feet and that is enough at this age group. For this age group, you need SL and GS skis and this rule does not eliminate this.

Suits - we are in Southern VT Council, where u10's can not have any speed suit showing during an event, but u12's can. Having two u12 races where speed suits can not be worn, will not reduce any cost. Everyone will still own a GS suit. As already pointed out, maybe this is the first phase towards no suits and it would have been hard to do this year as people have already bought them. I would be fine with no GS suits since maybe I could then leave the coat bag at home. But I am wondering if some kids will still strip to something lighter than their jacket, like a shell or sweater. If my kids all wore Silvy Tricot padded sweaters and Ellesse padded pants, I would be more than happy to carry down their coats !

Wax - the use of flouro wax has never been a requirement for u12 sucess, so I don't see how this recommendation is going to reduce costs. I am not positive, but I think very few 12's around us are using flouros. u12 races are not wax races, but all about ability. Sharp skis and some hydrocarbon wax is all that is needed. When Daron Rahlves asked his technician, Willi Wiltz, on the night before a Hahnenkamm DH if he was putting the secret sauce on his skis, Willi replied " Daron, the fastest thing I can put on your skis, is YOU" ! That sums up u12's perfectly.

Waxing Tables - never seen one at u12 race or anyone putting overlays on at the start. I have seen coaches brushing skis at the start and although that is still allowed, you may not see it anymore as it could look like wax was just applied.

Good intentions, but just don't know how any of these rules will reduce costs.

 

[hbear]

If the other kids don't have them, nobody is missing anything.

How so?

They see their heroes on TV and in person using them, they see all the U14, U16, FIS racers in them. They are old enough to believe "real" racers wear suits (part of the uniform).....U12s are not U6s. If WC was like SX and had a no suit rule, it would make sense. But in the end the kids want to mimic their heroes and for alpine racing that means speedsuit. I still remember how unbelievably happy and shrieking my daughter was when she got her first speedsuit (it was a used suit we bought from a friend with an older athlete)...she wore it around the house all day, wanted to sleep in it, had to convince her the fact she was sweating in the house probably meant it would be better to wear something less warm to bed. For her that was a milestone event and made her feel like she became a real racer.....she beamed for weeks. Still gets super exicited when she gets a new suit....but that first suit, I won't ever forget that day (frankly I doubt even a WC globe would surpass the joy she displayed when she got that first suit).

Step back and think about what the point of this equipment limitation is....it's not safety, it's not because of lack of performance. It's because somebody or group of somebody's think that eliminating it makes skiing more accessible. The truth is, it's not the suit and equipment that is limiting growth in ski racing....it's the overall costs and TIME commitment. Frankly a used pair of skis and used suit cost are a drop in the bucket or rounding error in the total cost of skiing for a season. Travel costs and cost of lift passes add up in a hurry. Ultimately cost combined with TIME commitment forces the drop off. Not many families can commit 96 days on snow for U14s, it's a lot of days, a lot of cost and unfortunatly unless jr is spending a significant time on snow, they are going to get smoked by the kids that do. It takes a rare child that is content being bottom of the pack while their peers continue to progress beyond them and an even more rare family that is willing to fork over money and time for that as well. We do have friends who's son raced into 2nd year FIS and never ever sniffed a top15 ever at any age. Parents had money and their son abosolutely LOVED racing so much he didn't care (he's currently coaching and wonderful with the younger kids)....not common however. More often I see some very talented top level kids than just stop (U14 to U16) because the family just couldn't afford it anymore (money + time is a killer). There is a reason pretty much every great skier lived within 20-30mins from a mountain.....saves a HUGE amount of travel cost and time for the family.

The other factor is that at the 12-14 year age level we generally see a sharp drop off in athletic particiaption overall (especially girls).....lots of reasons for this that I won't get into. (ski equipment, wax or speeds suits are not to blame)

Note: I didn't include club coaching costs, as good coaching isn't cheap and I don't see how we can ethically pay our coaches any less . Also haven't mentioned the very limited career potential end game with ski racing as well which unfortunatly factors as well. Tough to make it to the big leagues and even if you do the payout just isn't there unless you are top10 in the world. I keep trying to nudge my daughter to golf.....but she just loves racing too much to consider anything else.

 

[Brian Finch]

Let’s recall this is just Vermont & just select kids in Vermont.

Skiing has an extensive relationship with technology & early adopters, especially when a hint of safety is sprinkled into the mix:

Derbyflex

Sl tips

Chin guards

Stocks skis

Plug boots

Arm guards

Spine protection

Lifters boot & bindings

Bent / aero poles

How fair is it if NY & NH may use a suit, but Vermont can’t?

Quite frankly, I’m more disappointed that actually containing costs is being handled so carelessly.

 

[Average Joe]

As a race parent I've been through the U-8 to U-19 journey and agree these rule changes won't make a material difference in cost reduction. Ski racing is an expensive sport, let's be realistic. if you want to cap the costs, reduce the number of days a kid skis.

The contradiction is that the USSA recommends that U-12's ski 70-80 days a year:

https://my.ussa.org/alpine-programs...etition-matrix/ages-and-participation/phase-3

......and then provides this photo as an example.

So I'm a bit confused........

But, I'm recalling past USSA rule changes for U-14 and 16 ski lengths that were eventually abandoned, so this may pass as well.

Realistically, if you want to give your young kid a chance to succeed, make sure their edges are sharp, their boots are suitable and fit well (and are aligned by a knowledgeable tech) and they are warm and dry.

Skis: At the U-8, 10, and 12 level, cost savings mean ski swaps . The amount of excellent gear at greatly discounted prices makes it a no brainer . For this age group, the cost of a used race ski is roughly what some of us spend to fill the tank of a Suburban to drive round trip to the mountains.
Now with the money saved, take a trip to the shop for a Montana grind. You'll have money left over to buy a bench vice , a top quality edge guide, some diamond stones, and a wax iron (for your hydrocarbons! Make sure their skis are race sharp every day they train in icy gates (here in the east this means EVERY DAY).
Which is why we always had two pairs of skis, so that we always had sharp skis, and didn't wear one down. Always tried to have "next years ski" ready in March, for example.
And never used a slip ski on race day, just swapped left/right edges. You don't want a U-12 to be changing skis on race day at the start.

Race suit: Same as above. The thrill she got when she put that suit on helped hook her into the sport.
The passion feeds the commitment.
Cost, I think I paid $60, then $80 for my first two suits, when resold, I got back exactly what I paid.
One last point about these now maligned racer suits - they're padded, and they keep you warmer under the training clothing. So there's an additional layer of safety from sharp edges and added insulation (again, skiing in the East). At less cost than a tank of gas for my pickup truck.
Good habits develop from everyday routines, and having a padded protective layer under those loose fitting warm clothes is, I think, worth the small amount of money it cost. And the good habit of wearing a back protector will be easier to transition into.

With our high emphasis on safety, why would we want to remove an additional layer of padding and protection, and one that they all seem to want to wear? I may understand in the U-8 and maybe U-10's, but at the U-12 level they are starting to rip.
Baffling.

 

[Sibhusky]

Let’s recall this is just Vermont & just select kids in Vermont.

What's the "this" you're referring to? The thread topic is for all USSA (USSS, whatever we're not abbreviating these days..Brand Book, page 20).

 

[L&AirC]

If the other kids don't have them, nobody is missing anything.

How so?

I have a different view on this from my military experience - everything had to be earned. In basic training, though we were wearing the same uniform as those that already completed basic, we weren't allowed to wear it the same way. The most notable being "bloused boots". This is done by tucking the pant cuff of the utilities under a stretch band wrapped around the top of your boot. Without it, it looked sloppy. It took something like 60 or 70 days to get that privilege and it was lost in the blink of an eye. Few things were more humiliating than being told "Unblouse 'em!". Same thing with blocking covers, and wearing the EGA - Eagle, Globe and Anchor. You had to earn each one and the latter wasn't until you graduated.

I view this from a standpoint that if you want to get to wear a race suit like the big kids do - you have to put in the time and make it to U14. Just because I put on Superman's cape doesn't mean I can fly.

I'm all for the excitement of younger athletes having a race suit and fully appreciate that thrill for them. Now make it a little harder to get and require more patience. Do that and you will see a stronger commitment and the excitement will be greatly increased. Some might say "screw it" earlier because of this. They were probably going to say that anyways because if the suit was what made a difference, it wasn't the race that motivated them.

 

[hbear]

Perhaps, but trust me when I say my daughter earned her first suit. It wasn’t a just because, she had to show hard work and dedication to her sport to earn it (as she got it relatively early in the grand scheme). We didn’t direct it, she brought it up, we tried to scare her off with it being cold/etc. But she still wanted it. And frankly earned it.....while she is certainly kitted out significantly at this point she keeps earning everything she gets to this day.

U14 is pretty late for a suit these days. Look at athlete enrolment at U10 vs. U12 vs. U14. The trend is painfully clear. If jr getting a suit somewhere in the U10 to U12 ages (up here very few 2nd year U10s don’t have a suit and pretty much all U12s do) ups the stoke level and makes the sport more enjoyable/fun that is a good thing. Dropping out at U14 is not just due to lack of love....lots of factors outside jrs control there. Why not make it as enjoyable as possible when they are participating?

On that point, nobody is forcing one to buy a suit, it’s not mandatory. But certainly no need to restrict everybody else from getting one. If one wants to wait for their child to earn it in U14 so be it, no problem there.

The idea being restricting suit makes skiing more affordable and accessible....truth is that is doesn’t.

 

[James]

I don't see cost or staying in the sport having much to do with speed suits. They just make no sense for young kids.

Now gloves...

Lindsey Kildow near that age.
Bib 171!

 

[L&AirC]

Perhaps, but trust me when I say my daughter earned her first suit. It wasn’t a just because, she had to show hard work and dedication to her sport to earn it (as she got it relatively early in the grand scheme). We didn’t direct it, she brought it up, we tried to scare her off with it being cold/etc. But she still wanted it. And frankly earned it.....while she is certainly kitted out significantly at this point she keeps earning everything she gets to this day.

U14 is pretty late for a suit these days. Look at athlete enrolment at U10 vs. U12 vs. U14. The trend is painfully clear. If jr getting a suit somewhere in the U10 to U12 ages (up here very few 2nd year U10s don’t have a suit and pretty much all U12s do) ups the stoke level and makes the sport more enjoyable/fun that is a good thing. Dropping out at U14 is not just due to lack of love....lots of factors outside jrs control there. Why not make it as enjoyable as possible when they are participating?

On that point, nobody is forcing one to buy a suit, it’s not mandatory. But certainly no need to restrict everybody else from getting one. If one wants to wait for their child to earn it in U14 so be it, no problem there.

The idea being restricting suit makes skiing more affordable and accessible....truth is that is doesn’t.

The highlighted part is worth a second read. Suits have never been mandatory but as soon as a restriction is imposed, even those without an athlete (i.e. me ) start voicing opinions.

As I stated in one of my earlier posts, I wish I had all the background info into why they are doing this and what they looked at to come to a conclusion, and specifically what's the end game.

I have no doubt your daughter and hundreds of others have earned their suits and other gear. I love hearing this especially when the way they earn it is from something else - like have to get straight As in school or something of the sort.

Your last sentence I agree with as well. I see suits hanging in the club house in close to perfect condition for $50 and no one is taking them. Pretty good deal for something that just a couple years ago was $200 or $300.

I wish they came out and said "We want to put the emphasis on skiing better and skiing a lot so we are going to do these things; blah blah blah", and the blah are all the new guidelines. Leave cost out of it. Let it be a silver lining.

I don't know the right answer but the good thing is they are at least looking at things and trying something.

 

[James]

In terms of cost, a suit is probably cheaper than the special alternatives that will come up. It's doubtful many will be satisfied with normal ski wear.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

In terms of cost, a suit is probably cheaper than the special alternatives that will come up. It's doubtful many will be satisfied with normal ski wear.

Maybe, but when my daughter was racing U12, the kids didn't even strip, they were racing with parkas on. Have you ever spent a day on Smuggler's Notchs' Black Snake? Nobody would strip there!

 

[James]

Maybe, but when my daughter was racing U12, the kids didn't even strip, they were racing with parkas on. Have you ever spent a day on Smuggler's Notchs' Black Snake? Nobody would strip there!

No, I've only made the trek as a kid over Spruce to Smugglers. Two times. I just remember it being freezing and windy.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

The sun shines pretty strongly there. From 11:30 until noon.

 

[QueueCT]

The benefit of a race suit is that it's a fair standard. Get a suit that fits right and nobody has an advantage in wind resistance. A no speed suit rule means kids (well, parents) will have them wear the most streamlined stuff that they can find. Does the region require they wear their team's race jacket? What about a thin vest over tech layers? It's going to result in more confusion, more expense and more arbitrary rules than today.

I'm good with the philosophy that's being espoused, however imperfectly. Skills are much more important than wax. Just keep the skis sharp. My now 1st year U14 girls asked me for slip skis this past season and I told them when they're off podium at regional events by a half second I'd consider it ... and only after they'd cleaned up their technique issues.

This stuff does matter, though, even at U12. My daughters were invited to an Eastern Region project based on their standings and there weren't many slots. While the nomination didn't have to be based on standings (could have been potential, for example), that was the most transparent way to make the selection.

As a side note, we've instituted a jacket and snow pants rule for U10s when it gets really cold (generally 0F at the start of a race).

 

[Burton]

It being the time of year when I start thinking about next year's gear for my two junior racers, I'm back to Pugski for the first time in a while seeing this thread and I'm kind of surprised by the negative take on this rule change. A lot of people are saying it won't actually keep down costs, or people will get around or ignore the rules. Notwithstanding the original article's headline about keeping down cost, when this proposal passed I wasn't thinking about costs at all; rather, I thought this was simply about de-emphasizing gear for the kids in favor of skiing fundamentals. For that goal, which is very worthy, I think the rules changes are a good start. And if you're someone who would secretly swap out your kid's skis in the lodge, or are even concerned that others may be doing the same and as such these rules are unenforceable, then may I gently suggest that's exactly why these changes are a step in the right direction.

I coach U-10s through U-19s. At the beginning of every season, I tell parents new to the program to be ready for the equipment arms race and to try and ignore it. I tell them race suits for kids under 12 are worse than a waste of money--kids freeze in line at the start, and taking a little kid who is already nervous and has to pee (why do they always have to pee?) and putting them in a race suit, with a bib over that, and you're just asking for trouble. Remember, these are little kids. Now, I'll confess that both my kids were in speed suits as second year U10s because that's what all their friends were wearing (and MY kids are chasing hundies, right???!), which makes me a hypocrite, but if this rule change went further and suits were out altogether for U12s on down, then both myself and other race parents lacking spinal fortitude could avoid the whole debate.

I see a fair amount of slip skis starting with U-12s. But a lot of the kids who are dropping a pair of race skis at the start are on their twin tips, so they end up not getting a real warm-up. That's dumb, and a consequence of parents contributing to their kids thinking the equipment is the important thing, not their skiing on that day. Holy crap, some of these race parents--especially the race parents who never raced. Someone above pointed out that for Eastern conditions, edges need to be preserved. Fair point, but swapping out your race edge should be protection enough. One thing I do like about slip/race skis is that I've managed to buy up a lot of used junior race skis with only about 20 runs and lots of spendy wax in them...