U12 rules changes in an attempt to keep cost down

[Tricia]

This article by SkiRacing Premium talks about the rules changing for U12 in an attempt to keep costs down and revues on skiing.

Snip from article.
Starting in the 2019-2020 race season, for U12 and under age groups, competitors are only allowed to use one pair of skis per race (inspections & competition). Parents, coaches, or technicians are not allowed to furnish additional pairs of skis for use during race day inspections or competition. In addition, at U12 and under competitions application of any type of waxing solution can no longer be applied at competition venues, and the use of ski preparation benches at competition venues is not allowed. Competitors are also being asked not to use fluorinated wax. Finally, the rule makers are recommending that each division hold two races next season that do not allow speed suits showing.

 

[robertc3]

This article by SkiRacing Premium talks about the rules changing for U12 in an attempt to keep costs down and revues on skiing.

Snip from article.
Starting in the 2019-2020 race season, for U12 and under age groups, competitors are only allowed to use one pair of skis per race (inspections & competition). Parents, coaches, or technicians are not allowed to furnish additional pairs of skis for use during race day inspections or competition. In addition, at U12 and under competitions application of any type of waxing solution can no longer be applied at competition venues, and the use of ski preparation benches at competition venues is not allowed. Competitors are also being asked not to use fluorinated wax. Finally, the rule makers are recommending that each division hold two races next season that do not allow speed suits showing.

This might deserve its own thread, but since it is here... I love this shift. We don't see all that many kids doing the trainer/racer thing at U12 and below in our area, but if they are not allowed to that is great. I would be happy to see this extended to all USSA races. If the FIS kids want to have trainers and racers that is fine, but not for USSA even at U16 and U19. That is where the cost really becomes a problem anyway. Speed suits at U12 and below don't help much if any, so going away from those makes total sense, though the kids do really like wearing them. My daughter said she wanted to join the race team when she was 8, but only if we got her a speed suit.
The fluro wax thing is just a recommendation, but really not enforceable. If someone waxes with a thick layer of fluro and then scrapes and brushes at the start that is within letter of the law, but not the spirit of the recommendation.

 

[Tricia]

@robertc3 Thanks. I thought about that after I posted in the other thread.
Moved to its own topic.

 

[hbear]

How many U12s use a different inspection and race ski????

We have some here that are on free skis for inspection and warmup and then their race ski for the race....I laugh as why would you warm up and drill on the ski you aren’t even going to race in?

Flouro for U12s, again laughable as I know WC skiers that have maybe used it less than 6 times for SL in their entire career.

 

[Brian Finch]

It will not make a bit of difference, good luck enforcing only one pair of skis and wax limitations.

 

[robertc3]

It will not make a bit of difference, good luck enforcing only one pair of skis and wax limitations.

The one pair of skis thing is fairly easy to enforce, but also easy enough to get around. Any skis left unattended at the start get stored by the race organizers until after the race. Easy to get around by just leaving the race pair at the lodge and swapping away from prying eyes. Still, I like the effort they are making.

 

[Sibhusky]

The speed suits thing is really crazy, because it's not every race, just a couple races. If you've bought the thing already, you might as well be getting the use out of it! They won't be the same size next season and there's already a huge hand-me-down culture with them. How does this fix that? Really, this fixes nothing. The parents already buying extra skis are just going to be swapping them in the lot and now you're going to need folks policing stickers or whatever. And the folks using fluoro are going to be doing it back in the hotel room. This is just going through the motions of trying to change ski parents who go overboard.

 

[Brian Finch]

Re- speed suits: they’re now economical enough that you can find em at every swap for under $50 & the speed suit is designed for a falling athlete to slide & not tumble- a key safety issue. So arguing against a safety measure to save $50- $200 (new) it truly a dumb campaign.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Some good intentions but totally naive and half assed execution. If you don’t want flours just say so, don’t just suggest people refrain! And same on speed suits, this doesn’t save anyone from buying one, in fact will lead to people buying super streamlined non- suit gear. Stretch pants again? Explain how this will actually reduce costs anywhere....

 

[Wilhelmson]

Quick observation from a non ski race parent - if the parents teach the kids that using floro against the rules is o.k. to get an edge or keep up with the other cheaters how will this affect the kids' down the line when they grow up and feel they need an edge to beat or keep up with other athletes?

 

[Tricia]

Some good intentions but totally naive and half assed execution. If you don’t want flours just say so, don’t just suggest people refrain! And same on speed suits, this doesn’t save anyone from buying one, in fact will lead to people buying super streamlined non- suit gear. Stretch pants again? Explain how this will actually reduce costs anywhere....

When it comes down to it, the parents will buy what they buy and the kids will beg for the things they see other racers using.

Example:
We had a kid's dad come into BZ about a month ago when the kids were doing training with Mikaela Shiffrin, Travis Ganong and the like. Not sure how old the kid was, but he was young. The dad wanted us to use flouro.
Why? It was spring skiing in a fun training camp. We convinced him that yellow was a better choice.
Granted, the kid rips, but

 

[ScotsSkier]

Quick observation from a non ski race parent - if the parents teach the kids that using floro against the rules is o.k. to get an edge or keep up with the other cheaters how will this affect the kids' down the line when they grow up and feel they need an edge to beat or keep up with other athletes?

It is NOT against the rules, So i5 is not cheating! That is one of the half-assed aspects of it....... and of course, even if it banned fluoro is that just on race day? Could you load the ski up with it before? And of course how do you test?

 

[Erik Timmerman]

It's not that long ago, that the kids in VT had to have a sticker on their race skis. You only got one, and if you needed a new one, you had to show them a broken ski. VARA still doesn't allow suits for U12s (or at least Northern Council doesn't) as others said, it needs to be all the races if you are going to do it. Otherwise people still will buy a suit. And yes, U12s do have racers and trainers.

 

[sparty]

I'm not a fan of the ski rule. I don't think U12 should have multiple pairs per event, and I don't see anything wrong with strongly discouraging that at a governing-body level, but there's nothing wrong with slipping on your all-mountain skis and warming up and racing on your event-appropriate skis. On eastern conditions, I think training athletes to not slip on their race skis early is a good thing, as side-slipping an entire race hill with high-water-content "snow" is an excellent way to end up with skis that aren't as sharp as they should be. In general, I like the idea of athletes having all-mountain skis with them on race days to explore the mountain so race day involves more skiing and less standing around and waiting.

I am a fan of the suit rule. The cost savings is minimal in the context of ski racing, assuming you're willing to buy used (as noted, there are enough used suits, especially kids' suits, out there to keep that cost relatively reasonable, especially if you look at it as a net cost when you sell one to buy the next one), but the logistical impact of U12s racing in suits is far greater than the financial impact. You either need lots of adults to help carry clothes, an extra puffy for each kid to leave at the bottom (which is another cost, plus we all know how good kids are at misplacing spare clothing), or you need to send U12s around on the lift in their suits, and then you need to get them safely from the start to a venue exit (which isn't always easy with modern fencing, and is also an issue with non-USSA-licensed adults carrying clothing). Ironically, I feel like most of the U16s and U19s I work with would probably be even more okay with a no-suits rule than younger kids.

As far as safety and suits, (a) U12s don't have nearly as much momentum as older (larger) kids, and (b) particularly given (a), I think the reduction in potential for a serious ski-edge laceration outweighs any increased risk from tumbling rather than sliding. Hard to say for sure without actual data, though.

If not for speed events, I'd be a fan of extending the no-suits rule into the U14 age class, but super-G training and racing should be done in a suit. It just feels too different with wind-blocking layers on.

I recognize that the no-fluoro rule (guideline?) is effectively unenforceable, but I still like the position statement. I think it helps provide ammunition for coaches and clubs in parent education to say, "Look, you need sharp edges and reasonably maintained bases. We don't need to chase hundredths of a second on ski glide at this level; we need to chase seconds based on movement patterns and standing on the damn outside ski." The no-wax-tables and no-overlays-at-the-start rules are a good thing, IMO, because it takes the pressure off coaches to also be ski techs when they should be focused on their athletes, and it eliminates the emotional impact of seeing another coach applying an overlay that makes no rational sense but that makes an athlete feel like the other kid is getting a perceived benefit.

 

[S.H.]

It's not that long ago, that the kids in VT had to have a sticker on their race skis. You only got one, and if you needed a new one, you had to show them a broken ski. VARA still doesn't allow suits for U12s (or at least Northern Council doesn't) as others said, it needs to be all the races if you are going to do it. Otherwise people still will buy a suit. And yes, U12s do have racers and trainers.

MVC has suits for sure at U10/12 (I wish they didn't). Not sure about SVC.

Tons of U12s with multiple pairs of skis. A lot fewer of those U12s have good fundamentals. U12s are, by and large, very light. The wear and tear on a truly sharp edge from two runs of slipping (i.e., inspection) is pretty minimal. I was a reasonable domestic FIS skier ~10 years ago. I had only one pair of skis at many races (for many reasons). You have to manage how you inspect a little bit, but it's really not a huge deal. U12s will be okay. If nothing else, this should help coaches enforce/teach kids not to have a braking wedge during inspection, and not do do the "hockey stop at the gate" that many VT academy skiers seem to love at the U16+ levels.

Regardless of how enforceable any of these rules are, having the idea of the national body pushing development of skills versus equipment gains for 10 and 11-year-olds is probably a good thing. It's a lot easier to introduce new families to the sport if you show them that they really don't need to buy a suit or multiple pairs of skis per event at the younger ages.

 

[coskigirl]

It always boggled my mind when I had 5 and 6 year olds in speed suits on race day. Most of the time those suits were loose because parents wanted to get at least a couple seasons out of them. Unfortunately, there is a culture of wearing a speed suit is cool and kids without them feel left out and inferior. I understand why parents give in to the kids begging to have them but I also wish it wasn't a thing.

 

[Brian Finch]

After thinking about this more, the problem is not cost containment in ski racing, rather the elitist attitude preventing the growth of the sport.

We have run into this with our daughter, as she was 1 of two 2011 females in the club this year that were going to be moving on to the U 10 level.

I was recently on the race committee for a event (Trail Race) over Memorial Day weekend. We advertised everywhere and allowed multiple entry points for registration including same-day sign up. In an era where you can sign up for an ultra marathon, a road race, DH biking events, a spartan event or a tough mudder on the same day of the event-ski racing maintains an air of the elitism and requires you to have a membership, a license, a club and be pre-registered prior to the event, yet does absolutely no advertising or attempts to bring new people into the sport.

 

[AlpsSkidad]

ski racing maintains an air of the elitism and requires you to have a membership, a license, a club and be pre-registered prior to the event, yet does absolutely no advertising or attempts to bring new people into the sport.

This is even the case in Europe, where ski racing is seemingly more widespread. It requires the license, club membership, and pre-registration as well. Even though they claim to make it available with either free or really low entry fees (if not free it is often 10 euro or less) for the young ones.

The suit thing, I can see both sides, however, many kids (mine included) get excited about racing seeing the better skiers, and the gear is part of that. That excitement is also part of getting more kids into the sport, so having the right gear can in part drive the enthusiasm in kids.

As far as multiple skis goes, no one on our team or outside clinics we have attended has pushed us or the older kids to have separate inspection skis, trainers, and race skis. It wouldn't be frowned upon, but there is no pressure to do this either. There is pressure however to make sure you have separate SL and GS race skis. My U8 daughter, who has been skiing on a multi-event race ski was recently at a really good camp in Austria. They said nothing on SL days, but when she showed up to GS practice with the same skis, they questioned where her GS skis were and that she really needed some etc, etc....so, she now has SL and GS skis.

I have noticed that ski and boot costs in Europe for the kids race gear is significantly cheaper than in the US. For example the end of season clearance pricing I am seeing in the US the past month-is the same or sometimes still higher than the normal pricing throughout the year for the same gear in Europe. In other words I can by last years gear on clearance in the US, or I can buy next year's gear at the beginning of the season in Europe for the same price. Ski gear is still expensive, and growing kids makes it an annual expenditure, but at least the prices are not as high.

 

[L&AirC]

First, I’m a U10 coach and haven’t been in racing all my life like many others here, that however doesn’t prevent me from having an opinion . I am a bigger fan of this than some are and I would have pushed for more restrictions. I also wish they had more info one why they made the decisions they did. I think some of it was so it didn’t seem too extreme. Some parents, at least for race suits and skis, might have already shelled out some money so if the said “no race suits” it could have caused some ruffled feathers. This kind of sets a tone on where they are going and hopefully in the future there will be more de-emphasis on “buying” a turn and more on skiing well.

Some of the new rules actually line up with what the club I coach at preaches. For U10/12s, we never said any of this and many of the U12 athletes have two pair and I think all are in suits. I've always been honest with the U10 parents and told them they don't need suits but the kids love them. Up to them. The one constant we have ALWAYS pushed for with regards to skis is – 1) If you can, have race skis 2) Make sure they are sharp. I don’t know how many times, even for the U10s, we’ve gone to a race and by the 5th racer, two or three turns were already boilerplate ice; Sunapee is notorious for this. For the U10s, I wrote a several page document for the parents on how to tend to their skis and most of it was – general purpose wax and sharp edges. I know the U12 coaches preach the same.

Race suits for U10s and U12s are a waste of money (IMO) and more often than not, will impede performance; especially for U10s. I fully understand and appreciate wanting to fit in and getting geared up like the big kids do, but race suits are cold to start with and if it fits poorly, it is only worse. Cold athletes are poor performing athletes with slower reflexes and that is a waayy bigger risk to injury that falling in ski pants and jacket than race suit. Not to mention the annoyance of getting 20 sets of jackets and pants down the mountain and getting them sorted out. Having team jackets doesn’t help much .

I also don’t think most U12s are going to be going fast enough that having a race suit will matter much for speed or safety. I know there are always the exceptions and last season I heard someone coming down the course and spun around expecting to see a grown man but is was a very fast 9 y/o that ended up on the podium – with a LOT of margin. There were over 100 other athletes there that weren’t even close so, who are the rules for? Take away his race suit and any speed wax (don’t know he had any but he was in a suit) and he would have still beat everyone with a lot of margin.

I never prevented the U10s from having two pairs of skis on race days, but I didn’t allow them to go on the lift with a second pair either. I do this because most 8/9 y/o lack the motor skills and focus to ride the chair with an extra set of skis; especially if they are with other athletes doing the same. I’d hate to be a skier under that lift. With the U10s, I would bring them up to inspect and they could have their slip skis on and they would switch out at the bottom to their race skis. I will admit however, that I would prefer them to have a second pair of skis and no race suit or special waxes than the other way around. This is because of the icy courses around here and I feel this is safer.

Like I alluded to in the first paragraph, I’m hoping this is the start of more of this. Instead of coming in with a broad sword and hacking through the rules, they are making minor adjustments that over time will bring an aggregation of marginal improvements to get the nations racing level higher.

Ken

 

[Comish]

Dad of a 2nd year U12 and 2nd year U10 twin girls.

Don't agree with speed suit rule. Couple points on this.
-The joy my U10 girls get from wearing their speed suits is priceless. They just feel awesome and at some level, that is what its about at that age.
-Cost of used suits isn't bad. I'm averaging $60 per suit.
-They definitely don't "need" a suit, but it makes the race feel like a race and like they are the next Mikaela Shiffrin. Who didn't dream of being the next "insert idol" when you were growing up and dressing the part is definitely part of it.
-To me the biggest point on this is by saying there are 2 races without speed suits, then you are implying that everyone needs them for the rest of the races. That is ridiculous because you haven't saved anyone any money at all, just made it confusing on which races will be the ones without suits, and have to try and explain this to the kids will be annoying. Either get rid of them completely for everyone, every race, or let them use them.

Skis:
-In Far West I would guess most top 15ish kids at U12 have racers and trainers. Do they need them, nope. Made my tuning life a bit easier in the past, and knowing I have twins to pass the skis onto, wasn't an extra cost for me, but this will save a few $$$ for many. I'm ok with this rule as the kids certainly don't need racers and trainers.

Wax/prep:
-I'm for this one. Trying to explain to our kids why we didn't have a wax bench at the top of the course when Squaw did was tough and made our team feel like the minor leagues when in reality it just wasn't needed. Let the focus be on the kids skiing, not the last minute wax/brush at the top of the course.