Turning a piste ski into race ski?

LiquidFeet

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Early rise is a subset of rocker. I'd say race skis with 'rocker' are utilizing the 'early rise' type. Regardless, race ski early rise is subtle.
@Doug Briggs, why do the manufacturers even put early rise/rocker into thier race skis? Does it deliver any race advantage to decent racers? If yes, which kind of race skis benefit from some early rise, and why?
 

Doug Briggs

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@Doug Briggs, why do the manufacturers even put early rise/rocker into thier race skis? Does it deliver any race advantage to decent racers? If yes, which kind of race skis benefit from some early rise, and why?
I wish I could say I know the answer to that, but I don't. On speed skis, it softens the contact of the leading edge of the ski to to snow. In speed it is all about snow contact. It has been done for a long time in speed skis, before it was popular in tech skis.

I'll let others address early rise advantages. I have skis with early rise and without a non-early rise model to directly compare to, I just either like the ski or I don't. The early rise may affect my liking them or not. I'm not hypersensitive to ski characteristics. Tunes on the other hand I can notice and might quibble about.
 

Paul Lutes

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On behalf of the Arrow, I'd just like to say that for the same Indian/Archer the Arrow can make a huge difference. Using this phrase in combination with comparing an intermediate with an expert skier has it's place but generally speaking (except when the claim is made that a really competent skier can ski a pair of 2x4s - that's just silly talk), getting the right Arrow for the skier's unique set of needs is of equal value to improving the Archer.

Hmmm, seem to have drifted off of tuning and tools .....
 

ScottB

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So instead of buying race skis can I tune my piste ski edges at racing angles to achieve the same (or close) ice grip?

I actually want that "race grip" on hard snow.

So what will happen if I tune my p800 at 1 and 3 degress for instance (I dont know what the default angles are). Will the perform like race skis (at theast the grip aspect)?
Quick answer: yes, they will have significantly more grip on boilerplate, which seems to be what you are after.

Longer answer: 1/3 is not "race" enough and I would say at a minimum, go 0.5/3.0 and 0.5/4.0 would be better and more noticeable. Also, make sure the edges are "razor" sharp so you must handle them carefully, lest you cut yourself. You can get too sharp, but just do some hockey stop slides on ice a few times and they will dull down quickly to a comfortable level. If too dull to start with, they won't get sharper by skiing on them. You will get a sense of what's too sharp pretty quick, and that's what they make gummy stones for. What you won't get from a ski that does not have a race ski construction and strength, is high grip and precision at very high speeds. A race ski is stiff enough to not twist and loose its grip at high speeds. That's the other part of what makes a race ski perform like it does. Obviously tuning won't change that and you have what you have. What your changes will reveal is how "race ski like" the construction of your ski is and how high a speed it can still grip at. Your P800 should be pretty good, and I think you will be happy with the results.

Don't be scared of this tune, in soft snow the ski will feel exactly the same with the new tune. On firm snow, the ski should respond similar to soft snow. No more sliding out or skidding around. They way I tell if my edges are "proper" is when skiing on boilerplate feels like soft snow when I have my skis on edge. The turn response is basically the same. If you think about it, in soft "packed" snow (not powder) your skis will always grip when you want them to. On boilerplate (close to ice) they should do the same thing with very good edges. On glare, "hockey rink" ice, even a race ski has its grip limits, which are more about how hard the ice surface is and how much a skis metal edge can penetrate it. I have been able to achieve very good grip on my non-race skis on everything up to boilerplate. "Hockey rink" ice seems to be its own category and requires slowing down and a light touch.
 

ScotsSkier

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Hmmm Rossignol put rocker into their GS skis for a while, didn't seem to be too much of a detriment.
View attachment 108869
Actually Phil, in my experience it was detrimental!. I switched to 188/30 Rossi GS a couple of seasons ago and just could not come to grips with them and my results went waaaaay down. I played about with tunes/binding set up etc but just could not get them tp work for me. I gave up on them halfway though the season and went back to my old Blizzards and then Augment and my GS form returned.

After much head scratching and experimentation I eventually worked out what the issue was. With the early rise, when you initiated it looked and felt like they were turning in BUT there was actually a s light delay before they hooked up. Now my style/approach is based around a quick transition and into the new turn. With the Rossi i was just not getting that instant response that I like. Almost like it was dumbed down. And destroyed any confidence i had in them. While it undoubtedly works for others with different styles (or perhaps more finesse :roflmao:) just wasn't for me. Major PITA since I had invested in 2 new pairs of them! Expensive lesson! Interestingly enough, i also have similar pairs of 195/35 and 190/35 Rossis - and they don't exhibit the same issue for me ! Go figure!

So if anyone is interested in a good deal on a virtually unused race pair of 188/30 Rossi FIS GS with 18 or 15 bindings, let me know! ogsmile

And as @Doug Briggs has noted, this feature has been around in speed skis for several years now (at first I thought they were coming bent!!!) where it does help smooth the turn-in
 

cantunamunch

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Interestingly enough, i also have similar pairs of 195/35 and 190/35 Rossis - and they don't exhibit the same issue for me ! Go figure!
I don't know why that would surprise anyone. Different camber, different flex, different snow contact zones at all stages of initiation.

I'm not trying to be a jerk but talking about early rise without very specific camber, flex and taper context strikes me as talking about cumin without knowing if we're talking tacos or ice cream.
 

slowrider

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As a Intermediate recreational skier I noticed I had to move/pressure forward more with rocketed skis to engage the edges at the start of the turn.
 

oldschoolskier

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@LiquidFeet I feel that early rise is a form of softening the the initial grip of the ski. I’ve skied an early rocker ski and found it surprisingly pleasant and grippy. However, after reading @ScotsSkier post I must agree it does deaden the “instant on” in grip (thank you SS for pointing that out, I noticed it just didn’t connect it till you mentioned it). For those that desire and like it that it’s great, for those that don’t an early rocker might just soften up the ski enough to be not to twitchy. I Equate early rise as a variable base bevel without the complexities and all of the potential issues.

IMHO twitchness with aggressively tuned skis (race or otherwise i.e. base 0.5) is more of a skier thing, be it poor stance or improper boot alignment. I also feel that in most cases the issue is stance which explains the”like” of early rise. Easy fix for a difficult correction to understand for the skier (flat stance in all aspect of skiing).

If you want to see examples of this, follow skiers gliding and you will see the inside edge dominance (I’d guess about 95%) and very few truely flat tracks (outside edge even rare, well except for bow legged individuals). While boot fitting correction can help, it can hide poor stance and cause other issues in other parts of a turn. Fix stance first, then go to equipment to do final correction. Please note, before boot fitters get upset, there are individuals the need physical correction through the boot before stance can be corrected but they are not the majority.
 
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ScotsSkier

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I don't know why that would surprise anyone. Different camber, different flex, different snow contact zones at all stages of initiation.

I'm not trying to be a jerk but talking about early rise without very specific camber, flex and taper context strikes me as talking about cumin without knowing if we're talking tacos or ice cream.
yes and no.ogsmileogsmile ogsmile. These are all FIS spec GS skis (>30 on 188 and >35 on 190/195) so in this case all fairly similar in shape/taper etc. If anything the 190 would be the one I would expect to be most reluctant to turn in and hook up as for teh most part the 190 versions of the >35m GS skis were the "dogs" as they typically a stiffer less skiable version (as was the 183 version of teh >30m ski) as very little R&D was directed at them. They basically kept all the parameters of the longer ski they had focused on and built it in a slightly shorter length. For reference also the Rossi masters ski also exhibits teh similar "loose/delayed" hook up on turn in. I need to take another look at the>35m skis as it may be the only "earlyrise' on them is the graphic...ogsmile....which would explain it
 

François Pugh

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As a Intermediate recreational skier I noticed I had to move/pressure forward more with rocketed skis to engage the edges at the start of the turn.
Once you have enough miles under your belt, you could just skip that part of the turn when on the less deep snow (such as you would find on a trail). I prefer the instant feed back as soon as I start to turn, and I prefer that to be as soon as I think of turning, but for deep soft snow rocker can't be beat and is worth the sacrifice.
 

Jacques

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Once you have enough miles under your belt, you could just skip that part of the turn when on the less deep snow (such as you would find on a trail). I prefer the instant feed back as soon as I start to turn, and I prefer that to be as soon as I think of turning, but for deep soft snow rocker can't be beat and is worth the sacrifice.
Slowrider is humble. Dude has a zillion miles under and over his belt! He skis like a demon and carves like a sushi chef!
 
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