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Transitions

LiquidFeet

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....Boil it down and get away from opinions about what is "better" and just get to what are the absolutes.
OK, so the thread's title "Transitions" was an issue for me. You have been asking about going in the other direction, after the fall line. I'll answer with that in mind.

As the skis turn from the fall line into the new direction, they will get onto their uphill edges even if they weren't on their new edges above and during the fall line (above the fall line those new edges would have been downhill edges). The hill drops away from under the downhill edges no matter what the skier is or was doing, at least for a bit of distance. This is the only absolute for the skis, I think.

What's absolute for the skier? The inside leg, since it's foot sits uphill of the outside foot, does have to flex more than the outside leg, even if it wasn't flexed more above and through the fall line. This differential in leg flexing when the skis are heading in the new direction below the fall line is an absolute for the skier, I think.

Can't think of any other absolutes.
 
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LiquidFeet

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@Loki1, I've been thinking about this a bit more, and anticipating that you are interested in how the skis change from pointing down the fall line to pointing across the hill. Are there any absolutes?
1. Differences between outside ski and inside ski can't be absolutes because White Pass turns can be done, as well as one-ski skiing.
2. That change can happen without any rotational momentum that was started by the skier when the skis were moving across the hill above the fall line. We know the skier can start with skis pointing down the fall line and end with skis going across the hill. So rotational momentum, or initial steering angle, started back up in the top of the turn, or during transition, is not an absolute necessity for getting skis to go the other way along a curved path.
3. So let's look at how the skier can get that curved path to happen while the skis are pointing and going down the fall line.
.........Roll ankles/knees, or angulate at the hip. This tips the skis onto uphill edges, they bend because of how the skis are shaped, a platform is formed on the snow, and the snow pushes the skis along a curved path across the hill. So snow platform and centripetal force is at work. Is this an absolute? Not willing to go there yet.
.........Rotate upper body to face the side of the trail; this rotation will drag flat-ish skis, or lightened skis, around and take the skier across the hill along a curved path. Do the skis have to be tipped onto uphill edges as they move across the snow, even a little, while the upper body is rotating for this to work? Since the skiers doing this are aft, and often leaning in, the tails of skis in this instance get displaced outward and that's not going to happen unless they are on uphill edges. So let's say yes, an ungripping snow platform and some resulting centripetal force are at least present, if not dominant in causing the curved path across the hill. Still not willing to say centripetal force is an absolute.
.........Ron LeMaster talks about the differential steering angle in the shovel vs the tail of an edged ski. That difference accompanies both of the examples I've given and happens even if the skier is aft. See his book for a detailed description. Is this steering angle that's inherent to a bent ski, its "self-steering" function, an absolute? If centripetal force is always present, then this is always present. Still not ready to call these absolutes.
........These things listed above assume the skis are moving downhill at the start. Is forward linear momentum necessary for the skis to turn (and contributing to that turning)? No, because the skier can hop to an edge from a static start (Hop Turns, which count as turns in PSIA manuals).
........Here's the one type of turn I've waited to talk about that gives me pause in finding anything to be an absolute. Slide downhill on flat skis. Slide one foot back relative to the other, using hamstrings, so that hips do not turn. Skis will turn to the side of the pulled-back foot/ski and take the skier along a curved path across the hill. My eyes are not down there at snow level; does this pull-back movement of what ends up being the inside ski tip it? If yes, then a bit of platform happens and we've got centripetal force at work. But I'm not sure the skis tip. I do 360º spins this way. I work to keep the skis flat. The pull-back move, plus gained rotational momentum, makes those spins work. Not tipped and edged skis. If it's something other than snow platform pushing on a bent ski that makes this pull-back work, that is, if it happens with both skis staying flat, then centripetal force and differential steering angle within the ski are not in play. If they are not in play in this one instance, then they are not absolutes.

--The way this turn might happen with skis staying flat is similar to how a tank or snow groomer turns. The rotating track on one side pulls against the snow one way and the other tracks pulls against the snow the other way. The machine turns. Look up force-couple for an engineering description of how this works.
--Does the bottom of a ski have grip, even if it's not edged, which would allow the force-couple phenomenon to work? Is there enough grip or friction between the base of the pulled-back inside ski to turn the skier like a tank turns when going slow on low pitch terrain? Is there enough grip/friction to start the skier spinning around in 360ºs on truly flat skis without relying on edging, bending, self-steering, and centripetal force? I think so. I can't see the snow-surface and ski's base to really know. Maybe. If so, then there are no absolutes for making the skis turn from downhill to across the hill, none at all. There are numbers of ways of getting the skis to turn, not just one.

Back to your question. There's not one thing that absolutely has to happen back up in transition, that's a certainty for all turns everywhere, because turns can start at the fall line from a straight run.
 
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geepers

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I am asking what needs to happen in transition to facilitate turning in the other direction. I think the majority of skiers go from one turn to the other. Sure there are times when they don't but the majority of the time they do. I wanted to ask a question that made people think about what absolutely has to happen versus what is more opinion as to what has to happen. If I asked how does one initiate a turn we would be back into the same old argument about flexion and extension. I was trying to get people to think about the bare minimum of what has to happen. Boil it down and get away from opinions about what is "better" and just get to what are the absolutes.

Thought transition was the bit in between turning one way and turning the other.

Look at this image.

Looks like that skier is well into the new turn. Given the visible dust trail that's got to be at or after the fall line.



Ok, maybe we should get a definition of "transition". Where does it begin and end?
 

markojp

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Summer can't end soon enough.
 

geepers

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Summer can't end soon enough.

Easy for you to say. :rolleyes:

Had last day for the southern hemi season on skis yesterday and it's going to be a long hot summer and many, many months (given Aussie travel restrictions) before the next outing. :eek::eek:

Starting to wonder if bristle mats and a lift system for the back garden may be doable...:crossfingers:
 

Mike King

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Easy for you to say. :rolleyes:

Had last day for the southern hemi season on skis yesterday and it's going to be a long hot summer and many, many months (given Aussie travel restrictions) before the next outing. :eek::eek:

Starting to wonder if bristle mats and a lift system for the back garden may be doable...:crossfingers:
One of these may do the trick...

 
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Loki1

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Interesting that you all want to avoid the question. Especially you liquid. Why can’t any of you answer a simple question? What has to happen in transition? Not what do you want to happen, but what has to absolutely happen? Not that hard.
 

markojp

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:nono:

It is so hard to care about any of this. It's the stuff that drives anyone with a passing interest in coaching and instruction away. Skiing is supposed to be fun. Remember that.
 
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Loki1

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:nono:

It is so hard to care about any of this. It's the stuff that drives anyone with a passing interest in coaching and instruction away. Skiing is supposed to be fun. Remember that.
.
I hear what you’re saying. But it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t care. People spend alot of money to ski with some of us. And if we treat it like it doesn’t matter we will no longer have people that w at to ski with is. So mark, you may not want to engage but maybe a few of us should.
 

markojp

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I'm paid to help people with their skiing. I'm happy to do this on the hill. It matters to them . It matters to me as well. We have fun and enjoy working together. In these instruction threads, words twisted around words spun into paragraphs into pages of endless bickering, chest beating, and verbose molehills posing as mountains. Watching a couple of videos of great skiing and doing some basic MA would put the confusion and BS out to pasture.... and it would be fun. Yes, there are some good nuggets to be found, but we need to be careful not to suffocate the pony under the proverbial pile of dung.
 
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LiquidFeet

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I'm paid pretty darn well to help people with their skiing. I'm happy to do this on the hill. It matters to them . It matters to me as well. We have fun and enjoy working together. In these instruction threads, words twisted around words spun into paragraphs into pages of endless bickering, chest beating, and verbose molehills posing as mountains. Watching a couple of videos of great skiing and doing some basic MA would put the confusion and BS out to pasture.... and it would be fun. Yes, there are some good nuggets to be found, but we need to be careful not to suffocate the pony under the proverbial pile of dung.

Clearly you think long paragraphs written in a technical thread are a pile of dung that smothers everyone's fun. You are speaking for everyone, right?

Loki started the thread with a question. He keeps asking the same question over and over because he hasn't gotten the answer he's fishing for. Answers to his question are appropriate in this thread, right?

If some people reading here don't want to read long posts that respond to the question, posts that have paragraphs, they can skip over them and post videos instead. This has already happened. Multiple conversations in a single thread are common.

But calling those respectful responses to Loki bickering, chest beating, and verbose molehills is unnecessary. Why so aggressive?
 
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Bad Bob

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Interesting that you all want to avoid the question. Especially you liquid. Why can’t any of you answer a simple question? What has to happen in transition? Not what do you want to happen, but what has to absolutely happen? Not that hard.
Will take a swing at your question @Loki1. Watching the above footage of World Cuppers ripping it up outside of the gates the one thing I see that they have in common whether they are crossing over, crossing under, or rebounding from the stored energy in their skis is they are reducing the pressure on the skis. (Predominately of the outside ski.)
A high angle carve or a wedge turn will end or be reduced when the pressure on the edges is reduced. There are exceptions to be found, like using the terrain to skid around a bump.
Now quit bickering kids! It is getting too close to name calling around here.
 

markojp

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Clearly you think long paragraphs written in a technical thread are a pile of dung that smothers everyone's fun. You are speaking for everyone, right?

Loki started the thread with a question. He keeps asking the same question over and over because he hasn't gotten the answer he's fishing for. Answers to his question are appropriate in this thread, right?

If some people reading here don't want to read long posts that respond to the question, posts that have paragraphs, they can skip over them and post videos instead. This has already happened. Multiple conversations in a single thread are common.

But calling those respectful responses to Loki bickering, chest beating, and verbose molehills is unnecessary. Why so aggressive?

As I said, there are nuggets of goodness. Your posts would almost always be included in that bunch. I'm sure I'm also getting threads mixed up, but in the end, I'd challenge everyone to 'explain' as they'd teach. Distill, simplify, demonstrate. The latter would be using video since we're not on the hill. You're great at breaking down video clips for MA! Your posts are never 'guided discovery' in tone and intent. Many are. To paraphrase John Ballou, "discover what?" Keep being the pony, LF! :)



( and yes, the sky is puss yellow orange today... I'm very concerned for friends down in CA, OR , and on the other side of the Cascades. It's tough not to be affected by what the fires are doing out here.)
 
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Uke

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Guided Discovery. You know what you want the students to learn from your presentation and you're going to keep hammering it home until they get it.

Guided Recovery. You started the clinic with a goal but the interaction of the participants took things in a different (better) direction.

Guided Chaos. You just got told to take the clinic group five minuets ago. You throw something out there and get the reaction of the group and move to go deeper. Then you realize you have jumped into a rabbit hole. Leaping out you grab onto a comment from the group and move to a different topic and try to avoid any more holes.

uke
 

Mike King

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Back to answering @Loki1's question. I think three things:

1. You've got to change edges
2. You have to get the center of mass inside the new turn if it isn't already there
3. You have to manage the forces arising and changing in the transition.

It is possible to see 1 as creating 2 or vice versa. Doesn't really matter which is the input and which is the result because that's a chicken versus egg thing. I don't think anyone has mentioned 3 yet, but it is also a necessary but insufficient condition -- if you don't manage the forces, you will wind up in a heap somewhere along the way.

Mike
 

François Pugh

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Interesting that you all want to avoid the question. Especially you liquid. Why can’t any of you answer a simple question? What has to happen in transition? Not what do you want to happen, but what has to absolutely happen? Not that hard.
What was the question again?
Oh wait, was it what is needed for a transition to occur/happen?
If so, then....
Left turn becomes right turn (or vise versa), by my definition of transition.
Therefore, necessarily according to Isaac (proof by authority!ogwink), left accelerating force becomes right accelerating force. It is well known that (aka too lazy to support it with proof or reference -be thankful I'm not using proof by reductio ad nauseum) tipped skis apply forces, therefore left tipped ski becomes right tipped ski, or if skiing in a wedge with opposing edges, dominant edge (due to weight and angle) changes.

Some folk may want to divide it into two separate parts, left accelerating force stops, right accelerating force begins. Typically the old turning force stops first, then the new turning force begins, but it doesn't absolutely have to be done in that order; we can all do some tricks.

Oh, btw, absolutely, in an on-hill lesson less talk and more skiing is preferred, but this is an internet forum, not a ski hill.
 

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