Transitions

[razie]

@Chris V. ...
page 4:

The edge change has to happen. The body must cross over the skis and establish the fabled "inclination of COM" - putting aside some corner cases of some weird contortions or shuffles and half-turns. These must happen... or you didn't transition!

page 7:

So again, one more time with feeling - maybe I find better wording this time: the upper body moving into the new turn is critical, whether it leads the way in the timing or not. The tipping of the feet into the new turn is critical. The two occur together generally but are separate things we do.

...but we only got agreement in page 7... but I guess not all bad, as we also clarified the role flexing and separation plays...

@Loki1 yeah, I think I mentioned that in my answer - you don't have to ski well, some people don't even have to leave home to ski...

...that's all good and well until you said that adduction and abduction of the femurs can occur without flexion - but I would struggle, and I think we all would, to tell how does one biomechanically adduct/abduct the femurs without flexing at the knees, to separate them from the boots? Because to move the femurs without moving the hips (adduction and abduction are in relation to the midline) and keeping the leg long, you would have to move the boots too, right??

To give everyone a visual: this one can move the femurs easily - and it would actually just edge/unedge the skis at that amount of flexion:

...not so if the legs were long...??

 

[LiquidFeet]

....The most important thing is that you have to do is change edges, even in a wedge turn.....
.....What do you all think?

@Loki1, I think that statement is particularly revealing of your mindset.

 

[razie]

I just managed to find the vid and I think the story of that gate is too good to not share - I surprised myself when I saw how far the last gate was.... since the topic is the transition, anyway - here's a heck of a transition:

He made it, just barely, on what looks like the inside edge and inside elbow... but now let's contemplate for a bit how that would have looked had he not worked on flexing to release until he owned it? He'd probably have jumped over the last gate - a full WC FIS ski can bite you very hard if you're off the disco beat...

 

[Loki1]

Just for you Razie, because you need to know that

abduction and adduction have nothing to do with flexion. You are talking about femur rotation. Get it right.

 

[Loki1]

Liquidfeet So you disagree with my statement that edge change is the most important thing in transition.
? Many here have argued that com needs to move across the edges to transition to a new turn I brought up a wedge turn simply to prove a point that the com doesn’t need to cross the bos to transition to a new turn. Let’s hear your ideas in the transition.

 

[Loki1]

let me be more to the point If you don’t change edges do you ever go the other way? Or am I missing something? What else is there in transition that absolutely needs to happen??

 

[S.H.]

Liquidfeet So you disagree with my statement that edge change is the most important thing in transition.
? Many here have argued that com needs to move across the edges to transition to a new turn I brought up a wedge turn simply to prove a point that the com doesn’t need to cross the bos to transition to a new turn. Let’s hear your ideas in the transition

If you change edges in the transition between wedge turns, chances are you're going to be pretty unhappy.

 

[geepers]

The one thing that absolutely needs to happen is there must be femur rotation and an adduction/abduction of the femur as well. Without these 2 things edge change will not happen.

I must be missing something here.... edge change requires femur rotation? Adduction/abduction?

The tipping of the feet into the new turn is critical.

Why is feet tipping critical?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Liquidfeet So you disagree with my statement that edge change is the most important thing in transition.
? Many here have argued that com needs to move across the edges to transition to a new turn I brought up a wedge turn simply to prove a point that the com doesn’t need to cross the bos to transition to a new turn. Let’s hear your ideas in the transition.

@Loki1, I quoted you saying "....The most important thing is that you have to do is change edges, even in a wedge turn....'.


My answer to your question about edges having to change was in post #75 on page 4. Here's the link, if you are interested in my detailed response. I found the question rather interesting.

Transitions

Are THE SKIS changing their direction of travel? Yes, the skis are turning. Are the skis' turns changing from left turns to right turns and back and so on? Yes, there are transitions. What is essential for these transitions to occur? Left and right (centripetal in fact) forces, in this case...

www.pugski.com

 

[LiquidFeet]

whoops, double post.

 

[LiquidFeet]

let me be more to the point If you don’t change edges do you ever go the other way? Or am I missing something? What else is there in transition that absolutely needs to happen??

Without changing edges you can turn the skis to point down the fall line. Many skiers do this regularly. They get their skis to do this, and their skis take them along a curved path, while the skis are flattening. As this is happening, the skis are still on old uphill edges that are flattening. Then when the skis are pointing across the hill "the other way", yes, they will finally be on the "other" edges. There are tactical as well as technical reasons to start turns this way.

Advanced and expert skiers doing advanced/expert turns on groomers get their skis on new edges before the skis point downhill, but not everyone.

1. Do you consider the part of the turn where the skis change from heading across the hill to heading downhill as part of the transition? I do.

2. Do you consider the part of the turn below the fall line, when the skis begin going "the other way," as part of the transition? I don't.

 

[razie]

No, @Loki1 I think I got it right. Read my question again while looking at B in your diagram - that's femur adduction/abduction. I sometimes confuse one for the other, but nobody can confuse them for rotation or maybe you just did?

How can she move that femur laterally without taking the boot off the snow?

Here's a quick experiment we can all do to see the relation between adduction and flexing. Sit on a low stool/chair preferably with a backrest. Long legs out in front, you can leave heels on ground. Move a femur left right and tell me if the foot moves too (yes). Now put the feet down by bending the knees, say 90 degrees to keep it extreme and simple. Move femurs left and right and watch in amazement at how your feet can stay in one place, on the ground.

I mean I may have a bad day every now and then, when I grind the coffee beans the wrong way, but it's still hard to confuse basic biomechanics...

I don't understand your mental model for a turn - maybe you can just say what it is?

@geepers tipping the feet is critical for good skiers.

 

[markojp]

Seattle smells and looks like a campfire is burning nearby today... don't know if it's ma nature or this thread causing all the mess.

 

[razie]

...it must be these transitions... Let's just watch some good skiing for a while...

 

[LiquidFeet]

^^I love watching that kid. Nice enhancements in that video too.

 

[Loki1]

Without changing edges you can turn the skis to point down the fall line. Many skiers do this regularly. They get their skis to do this, and their skis take them along a curved path, while the skis are flattening. As this is happening, the skis are still on old uphill edges that are flattening. Then when the skis are pointing across the hill "the other way", yes, they will finally be on the "other" edges. There are tactical as well as technical reasons to start turns this way.

Advanced and expert skiers doing advanced/expert turns on groomers get their skis on new edges before the skis point downhill, but not everyone.

1. Do you consider the part of the turn where the skis change from heading across the hill to heading downhill as part of the transition? I do.

2. Do you consider the part of the turn below the fall line, when the skis begin going "the other way," as part of the transition? I don't.

So in the original post I asked the question with the outcome being an actual ski turn. What you are describing doesn't equate to a turn. We can all release the edges in a way to seek the fallline but not ever go the other way, which is what you are describing here. So to be more specific I am asking what you need to do in transition to make the skis and you go from one direction across the hill to other, in transition.

 

[razie]

Tom Gellie vid "Retraction Turns or flex to release - [...] heavily features razie.

Yeah, the nod was nice and Tom's a great guy and educator - but as I remembered, he's not featuring me, rather "Blue Jacket" quite a bit... for good reason! As opposed to me, Blue can ski! And thanks for reminding me - sometimes it's easy to forget when arguing this or that here - in the midst of trading word salads - who were Blue Jacket's two original coaches... the ones that took an "advanced" skier, turned him into "that" Blue Jacket and documented the pretty short initial journey... although I was more the conduit for Heluvaskier's boundless knowledge

Eitherway, you get to pick my brain here, so, if we can get past the usual confirmation bias and the fluff we get caught in too often... we could elevate these discussions to a much higher level, past the usual expert level, take it to the double black and then talk about how we go about slaying that hip to snow...

Tom featured this vid quite a bit, a lot of actual hip to snow double-black carving:


I just switched off my office A/C for the season and I'm drawing Blue's and my improvement plans for the season... we're just looking to be better skiers, outside of any preconceived notions and artificial limits to improvement... all we need is snow... so let's just get stocked up on stoke for the awesome season ahead...



cheers

 

[Loki1]

No, @Loki1 I think I got it right. Read my question again while looking at B in your diagram - that's femur adduction/abduction. I sometimes confuse one for the other, but nobody can confuse them for rotation or maybe you just did?

Here's a quick experiment we can all do to see the relation between adduction and flexing. Sit on a low stool/chair preferably with a backrest. Long legs out in front, you can leave heels on ground. Move a femur left right and tell me if the foot moves too (yes). Now put the feet down by bending the knees, say 90 degrees to keep it extreme and simple. Move femurs left and right and watch in amazement at how your feet can stay in one place, on the ground.

Again Razie you are wrong. The movement you are describing, while it includes adduction, comes from femur rotation. The femur doesn't go stright into the hip socket. The femur has an angle to it at the hip joint. So when we internally rotate the femur there is and added adduction movement. As well as when we externally rotate the femur there is and added abduction movement. When you see the knees adducting or abducting that is the femur rotating in the hip socket. This is visually very evident when the knees are flexed rather than extended. Adduction/abduction happens as well when the femur moves laterally in or out medially. This requires the foot or the pelvis to move laterelly as well. As you can see in the diagram at B the main factor is the angle between the femur and pelvis gets smaller with abduction and greater with adduction. With your example on the chair does your angle change significantly?

Look at this image. The skiers left leg is internally rotated and abducted. The skiers right leg is externally rotated and abducted. No matter what I do with my COM. I need to internally rotate and adduct the right leg to move balance to the inside edge of the new ski to transition to the new turn. If I simply move the COM to the other side without rotation and adduction my COm will be on the coreect side but I will be unable to balance on the inside edge of the new turning ski, because it is externally rotated and abducted. This is true even in wedge turns. While my COM is between my opposing edges, the rotation and abduction/addutcion are still true. The turning ski is internally rotated and adducted and the none turning ski is externally rotated and abducted. So to go the other way that relationship must change.
Just to go through the transition a bit. Again of you look at the skier above. In transition the skier needs to internally rotate and adduct the right leg to move balance and pressure to the inside edge of that ski. He also needs to externally rotate and abduct the left ski to flatten the old turning ski. Once balance and pressure have been established on the new turning ski, the skier then will start to abduct the right leg as to increase edge angle. This can come across as 2 different visuals, one of the hip/pelvis moving insdie the turn and the other as the outside leg extending out to the edge. Either way you will notice the angle from the outside of the hip to the femur getting smaller on the turning leg.

 

[LiquidFeet]

So in the original post I asked the question with the outcome being an actual ski turn. What you are describing doesn't equate to a turn. We can all release the edges in a way to seek the fallline but not ever go the other way, which is what you are describing here. So to be more specific I am asking what you need to do in transition to make the skis and you go from one direction across the hill to other, in transition.

Thank you for referring to something I said in that post. But Loki, I don't think "going the other direction" is part of transition. That's the bottom of the turn. I started a thread about the bottom of the turn because of this thread.

Here are a bunch of initiations. These are some ways to get skis that are pointing across the hill, and taking the skier that way, to pointing downhill, carrying a skier along a curved path that I think most people here would call the top of the turn. All of these below assume parallel skis heading across the hill.

Are you asking about all the different ways skiers can release or initiate a turn?
1. Head across the hill, roll both skis onto downhill edges by rolling the ankles/knees. Allow skis to turn to point downhill.
2. Head across the hill, flex the new inside leg. Allow skis to turn to point downhill as they carry the skier along a curved path.
3. Head across the hill, extend the new outside leg. Allow skis to turn to point downhill.
4. Head across the hill, flex the new inside leg and extend the new outside leg. Allow skis to turn to point downhill.
5. Head across the hill, flex both legs quickly to lighten skis beneath you, rotate skis to point downhillish. Allow skis to continue the downhill turning as you "land."
6. Head across the hill, extend both legs to lighten the skis, rotate the skis to point downhillish. Allow skis to continue the downhill turning as you "land."
7. Head across the hill with upper body square to the skis, and stand tall to begin flattening both skis. Rotate upper body to point downhill. Its rotation will drag the flattening skis to point downhill.
8. There are more, but I'm imagining you, Loki, will find problems with each of these so I'm starting to add more words to them to head that off even though I know more words are probably not going to work. So I'm stopping.

 

[Loki1]

Are you asking about all the different ways skiers can release or initiate a turn?

I am asking what needs to happen in transition to facilitate turning in the other direction. I think the majority of skiers go from one turn to the other. Sure there are times when they don't but the majority of the time they do. I wanted to ask a question that made people think about what absolutely has to happen versus what is more opinion as to what has to happen. If I asked how does one initiate a turn we would be back into the same old argument about flexion and extension. I was trying to get people to think about the bare minimum of what has to happen. Boil it down and get away from opinions about what is "better" and just get to what are the absolutes.