Time To Get Back to Cross Country

[ScottB]

Why more camber? On my diagonals, the camber keeps the scales off the snow unless all my weight is on one ski. I would think more edge is good for skating?

 

[xcountry]

My original plan was to get into cross country skiing on the cheap since I already had the skis. I now know that they are too old to put any money into and will consider purchasing something new or newer if I want to ski the local golf coarse on those rare occasions when it is covered with snow (we average 60" of snow a year but it quickly melts in the mile-high sun). If I enjoy it I can then consider a trip up the canyon.
As for skate-skiing, I will make the trip to the Frisco Nordic Center next season and see if my lungs can handle the burn.

 

[Wendy]

Often more camber, not less, too. If I had mine here I’d line them up in profile to show you.

Ok, wsit, I actually had pics of mine!
Here, “backcountry“ xc skis, top, and skate skis (Salomon) bottom:

 

[Sandy_NYC]

Love this internet learning stuff.
Go from never ever to expert without ever hitting snow.

Why would we want to be on snow? The minute we get on snow...... we reveal how much we suck.

 

[cantunamunch]

The 75mm lugged boots that you showed in the pic WILL fit the Dovre bindings.

The Splitkeins with the cable bindings are designed for boots with bigger lugs. Clean them, keep them, show them off or send them to someone who has fond memories of wooden skis.

Practically speaking there are 3 NNN systems
NNN - single bar - you can use these, all below the ankle NNN shoes will be this type.
NNN Skate - double bar - you don't want this
NNN-BC - single wider bar - all of these will be above the ankle.

Here's the thing - buy the boots first and make sure they fit.

EDIT: Ignore Salomon systems for now; you don't know enough to be able to tell compatibility on sight, and it's easy to go wrong because they've made very many changes over the years. Also ignore Tyrolia (TNC) systems, Geze &c.


I'm going to go against the prevailing trend here and say - DO keep your old gear; it's fun to put it back on snow because snow is fun.

Even if your skis don't have scales on the bottom, you can use them without learning to kick wax - just take some coarse sandpaper and scrape the pocket ( about 6 inches in front of the binding to the heel of the binding) and make hairies. Old gear like that is cool to have especially in melt-down situations or where there is grit on the snow or when you have roads to cross.

 

[Tony S]

Kind of funny hearing a bunch of bored alpine gear heads trying to explain skate skis.

 

[xcountry]

Come to think of it, I prefer to try on shoes before purchase so used or new, buying online may be out of the question.

 

[xcountry]

I see that the logo states "ski talk at a higher level". As a newbie, I hesitated to post here but some months ago I posted on another site and received zero replies.

 

[tch]

Why more camber? On my diagonals, the camber keeps the scales off the snow unless all my weight is on one ski. I would think more edge is good for skating?

More camber to provide more "spring" off the skate. Skating well requires a strong, deep push off the edge; if you do it well, you flatten the camber/edge onto the snow (BTW, that's the main reason skating is done best on groomed hard surfaces). If you have more camber in that ski, you have more rebound, and then you have more speed.

 

[cantunamunch]

I see that the logo states "ski talk at a higher level". As a newbie, I hesitated to post here but some months ago I posted on another site and received zero replies.

You're doing fine. There's about three dozen quarantined posters who were itching for an excuse to tell you stuff.

 

[jt10000]

Why more camber? On my diagonals, the camber keeps the scales off the snow unless all my weight is on one ski. I would think more edge is good for skating?

In general, skis for diagonal stride must be soft enough or have less camber so that the skier can put the area underfoot onto the snow reliably. Otherwise they'd get no kick.

In skate skis a lot of the camber design is to deal with stability when on one foot kicking. More camber tends to increase that because it gives the ski a "longer wheelbase" with more pressure toward the tips and tails. Conversely, gliding performance for skate skis tends to be better with less camber or the ski being softer, since pressure is more evenly distributed along the whole length of the ski. But even that's complicated, because sometimes, such as in wet conditions, contact=suction, so racing skis for very wet conditions will have a lot of pressure located toward the tip and tail and less underfoot. High level racers will have skis for many types of situations – hard, cold, soft, wet, etc.

Among racing skis for diagonal stride there are even skis with a little extra camber for a certain type of soft kick wax (not really wax – rather klister which is like glue) so that the klister doesn’t drag on the snow except when kicking. Similarly skis like yours @ScottB have more camber to keep the fishtails off the snow. If the bottoms were smooth for wax, it could be less camber since the wax layer is thinner than fishscales.

Note also that there is camber unweighted, but also how the ski compresses under the skier. So it's possible to have a ski that lots pretty highly cambered, but compresses easily, compared to a stiff ski that with low camber that's harder to flatten out.

Optimal camber is really complicated, at least for high-level performance.

That side, I'm not sure Wendy's photo is a fair comparison - the two skis are too different in purpose. Touring and backcountry skis tends to be optimized for kick, much more than racing or high-performance skis of either type (skate or diagonal stride) which have to glide well and also be easier to control when skiing really dynamically with more time on one leg. We'd need to compare two skis of similar width to get an accurate comparison.

Two comments to @xcountry:

First, I do not think your username is a good one considering your level of knowledge. No offense, but it seems strange.

Second, there is a guy named Jeff Potter over at xcskiforum.com who would be into what you are asking about. Saving money, rummaging up old stuff (often of questionable use without a lot of work). His username there is JeffOYB.

You're doing fine. There's about three dozen quarantined posters who were itching for an excuse to tell you stuff.

Hahaha. True. Very true.

 

[jt10000]

Kind of funny hearing a bunch of bored alpine gear heads trying to explain skate skis.

You're spot on about being bored. That said, I'm pretty new to alpine skiing - did it a handful of times since I was a kid, but am now only in my second full season. So a newb in that regard.

Conversely, I've been skate skiing since the winter of 1985-1986, starting on my college's ski team. My first two skate skis were actually classic skis with the tips cut down - it was hard to get skate skis at the time. Think I got my first pair of dedicated skate skis in 1987. I still have them and have modern bindings on them. They suck by modern standards BTW

I can't imagine going out of something from the 1970s except as a novelty.

Here's me in 2005:

I'm doing more and more alpine and less and less cross-country because of the lack of snow within easy daytime driving of where I live. Also, it's fun. If I lived near more snow and had the time, I'd do both. Maybe when I retire.

I probably should post some of this in the new member intro area....

 

[xcountry]

Xcountry was the first thing that came to mind. It is just a name, not an indication of my skill level. Should have checked to see if "complete novice" was available. I see no way to change it now.

 

[Tony S]

GREAT post. Bravo, @jt10000 !

In general, skis for diagonal stride must be soft enough or have less camber so that the skier can put the area underfoot onto the snow reliably. Otherwise they'd get no kick.

In skate skis a lot of the camber design is to deal with stability when on one foot kicking. More camber tends to increase that because it gives the ski a "longer wheelbase" with more pressure toward the tips and tails. Conversely, gliding performance for skate skis tends to be better with less camber or the ski being softer, since pressure is more evenly distributed along the whole length of the ski. But even that's complicated, because sometimes, such as in wet conditions, contact=suction, so racing skis for very wet conditions will have a lot of pressure located toward the tip and tail and less underfoot. High level racers will have skis for many types of situations – hard, cold, soft, wet, etc.

Among racing skis for diagonal stride there are even skis with a little extra camber for a certain type of soft kick wax (not really wax – rather klister which is like glue) so that the klister doesn’t drag on the snow except when kicking. Similarly skis like yours @ScottB have more camber to keep the fishtails off the snow. If the bottoms were smooth for wax, it could be less camber since the wax layer is thinner than fishscales.

Note also that there is camber unweighted, but also how the ski compresses under the skier. So it's possible to have a ski that lots pretty highly cambered, but compresses easily, compared to a stiff ski that with low camber that's harder to flatten out.

Optimal camber is really complicated, at least for high-level performance.

That side, I'm not sure Wendy's photo is a fair comparison - the two skis are too different in purpose. Touring and backcountry skis tends to be optimized for kick, much more than racing or high-performance skis of either type (skate or diagonal stride) which have to glide well and also be easier to control when skiing really dynamically with more time on one leg. We'd need to compare two skis of similar width to get an accurate comparison.

Two comments to @xcountry:

First, I do not think your username is a good one considering your level of knowledge. No offense, but it seems strange.

Second, there is a guy named Jeff Potter over at xcskiforum.com who would be into what you are asking about. Saving money, rummaging up old stuff (often of questionable use without a lot of work). His username there is JeffOYB.

Hahaha. True. Very true.

 

[Wendy]

You're spot on about being bored. That said, I'm pretty new to alpine skiing - did it a handful of times since I was a kid, but am now only in my second full season. So a newb in that regard.

Conversely, I've been skate skiing since the winter of 1985-1986, starting on my college's ski team. My first two skate skis were actually classic skis with the tips cut down - it was hard to get skate skis at the time. Think I got my first pair of dedicated skate skis in 1987. I still have them and have modern bindings on them. They suck by modern standards BTW

I can't imagine going out of something from the 1970s except as a novelty.

Here's me in 2005:

I'm doing more and more alpine and less and less cross-country because of the lack of snow within easy daytime driving of where I live. Also, it's fun. If I lived near more snow and had the time, I'd do both. Maybe when I retire.

I probably should post some of this in the new member intro area....

so cool!!!
Same reason I don’t skate much anymore...lack of snow locally.
But I admit to loving skating more than alpine, still.

 

[xcountry]

And thanks for the link to xcskiforum.com .

 

[Eric267]

I appreciate the quick response and suggestions!
50mm? Thanks for the information as now I know what the "75mm" in the eBay boots adds refers to. There are no 50mm boots available and very few in a male, size 10, 75mm.
Knowing that the skis were old I did not want to spend much to make them usable. Now I must decide if I want to spend $15 to change the bindings to 75mm and another $50 for boots and $20 for poles in order to have something to scoot around the golf coarse with. Then there is the issue of learning how to use wax correctly.
A link to a modern package for sale for $265 after shipping...https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cross-Country-Package-160cm-Whitewood-WAXABLE-Skis-NNN-BC-bindings-Boots-Poles/232489810612?hash=item362178fab4%3Ag%3AY-4AAOSw9GhYlNYK&LH_BIN=1
View attachment 98200

View attachment 98199
I found this site to be quite helpful...

Nordic Ski Lab - Online Ski Technique

"The best ski technique videos online!" Skills and drills, expert demos, video technique analysis.

crosscountryskitechnique.com

Im a little confused also with weather you want to skate or classic?

If your just looking to get out in the parks and on the trails around Ft Collins you should be able to get a setup pretty inexpensively $200-300 new or $150 or so used. Something around 50-60mm under foot will be fine to float around golf courses and break trail on singletrack in shallower snow.

If you want to bring those skis back from the dead I would suggest as @cantunamunch said to switch to a standard nnn binding and nnn compatable boots. Then if you want to upgrade you can just buy a newer ski “flat” and change the bindings over.

The house is blowing out classic packages at 50% off currently so looking at around $225 out the door for a full setup. I actually have the Rossignol 59 they have in one of the packages as my rock skis and they work just fine breaking trail and in classic track at the resort. https://www.the-house.com/cross-country-ski-packages.html

Alternatively you can build your own setup with a little nicer gear for around $300. These Fischer spider crown 62 are one of the most popular skis around here (have a pair also) since they have metal edges for control on fire roads and ungroomed terrain yet still fit in a classic track at the Nordic centers. You could do an entry level boot with them for $50-60 or step it up a bit and get something a little nicer for $80-100 that will last forever. The better the boot the more ankle support which will help with breaking trail without the stepup to a full BC NNN setup. At 5’11” you would want poles in the 150cm range.

Fischer Spider 62 Crown XC Skis w/ Control Step-In Bindings

Fischer’s most popular steel-edge ski. Light and stable, with the exceptional climbing ability of the Offtrack Crown all-terrain climbing system. An excellent choice for skiers looking for a highly versatile ski.<br><br> Control Step-In IFP Bindings<br> New TURNAMIC® Touring binding with very...

www.the-house.com

Cross Country Ski Boots

The House

www.the-house.com

Lastly the cheapest option might be to try to get in touch with a couple Nordic centers or rental shops around your area. They usually tend to sell off their demo/rental fleets every season or 2 so will likely be able to put you together something inexpensive.

There’s a local instructor at Tahoe donner Xc that has a blog about Xc skiing in the Tahoe area with a bunch of informative info and videos on his YouTube channel

Buying Cross-Country Ski Gear, for Beginners (Part 1): Intention, Types of XC Skis, and Whether to Buy New or Used

“I’m new to cross-country skiing. What type of skis should I buy?” Or, “Since I’m new to cross-country skiing, should I just buy a used set of skis?” People have asked me these questions countless times over the years. As a cross-country ski instructor and xc rental shop employee, it’s my duty...

tahoetrailguide.com

Hope this helps

 

[cantunamunch]

Come to think of it, I prefer to try on shoes before purchase so used or new, buying online may be out of the question.

Just so you know, US sizing is useless when buying XC ski boots. For a number of reasons, which I shan't go into here. Forget your 'US 10' and use the Euro sizing. It will be printed on a little tab in your running shoes.

 

[tch]

Between Eric and jt10000, you've got a lot of really great info here, xcountry.
(BTW, I'd second Eric's suggestion to go for the Spider62's and better boots)
Best of luck, and have a good time!

 

[xcountry]

I greatly appreciate all of the suggestions and information provided! I apologize if my initial post was not clear. I should have began with one topic.

Since I initially skied in Frisco and saw the skate-skiers, that has been what I had wanted to participate in, or at least try. Since there are no local groomed trails, renting would be the way to go.

I then found the old Splitkien (Norwegian=split cane) and thought perhaps I could purchase an old pair of boots but could not find what style was required.

Some years later, I found the Rossingols and thought that I may be able to ski locally after snows with only a small output of cash.

I will re-read all of the posts and decide how much I want to spend to finally get into this activity.