the inside ski (foot) determines the size of the arc

[James]

^ Which one, C?

Next, if you move the body in first, it is likely that you will wind up with pressure directed to the inside foot with maximum pressure coming well into the finish of the turn. The knees need to lead the movement inside otherwise you wind up with not enough room to establish angulation.

Well I guess I consider moving the knees inside moving inside. Because it feels that way. Can we even incline the lower legs, move the knees without moving the pelvis in that direction? It's a small amount but it seems it moves.
Maybe that's why the inside foot/leg first. It helps unlock the pelvis. Don't know.

 

[LiquidFeet]

^ Which one, C?


Well I guess I consider moving the knees inside moving inside. Because it feels that way. Can we even incline the lower legs, move the knees without moving the pelvis in that direction? It's a small amount but it seems it moves.
Maybe that's why the inside foot/leg first. It helps unlock the pelvis. Don't know.

^^ What he said.

Tip the new inside foot, move the knee with it, which requires a bit of extra flex in that leg but this can happen passively, but don't move the hip above. Intending to "go bowlegged" keeps the hip from moving inside with the knee. Easy-peasy for us, but not for beginners so much. I've had newbie British teenagers do a good job with this since they are young and enthusiastic and flexible and I have two full days with them.

This move definitely sets up the beginner for upper body lower body separation, angulation and all that, without an isolated focus on the upper body. Slide that new inside foot back a little as you do this and wow a great turn happens at slow speed on low pitch terrain. All of this is for beginner parallel skiers. Score.

 

[JESinstr]

^^ What he said.

Tip the new inside foot, move the knee with it, which requires a bit of extra flex in that leg but this can happen passively, but don't move the hip above. Intending to "go bowlegged" keeps the hip from moving inside with the knee. Easy-peasy for us, but not for beginners so much. I've had newbie British teenagers do a good job with this since they are young and enthusiastic and flexible and I have two full days with them.

This move definitely sets up the beginner for upper body lower body separation, angulation and all that, without an isolated focus on the upper body. Slide that new inside foot back a little as you do this and wow a great turn happens at slow speed on low pitch terrain. All of this is for beginner parallel skiers. Score.

As you said, "Easy-peasy for us, but not for beginners so much"

IMO, any active/intentional movement to the inside (while at slow speed on low pitch terrain) be it ankle,knee, pelvis or trunk creates the potential to move the COM away from delivering pressure to the inside edge of the outside ski.

Does actively tipping and pointing the knee work? Sure, but at what long range cost? When it comes to creating turns, developing methods that train the skier to seek and hold balance with the inside edge of the new outside ski is paramount. In the end, shortcuts can only defeat that goal.

Back to reality, I do realize that instructors are put under stress to accomplish beginner redirection in a ridiculously short period of time. Hence the conundrum.

 

[Steve]

I don't believe there is something to be unlearned if you move to the inside first. Inclination is followed by angulation at high levels. The angulation builds as the turn develops. The first movement is still to the inside, so you're only teaching the first movement.

 

[JESinstr]

I don't believe there is something to be unlearned if you move to the inside first. Inclination is followed by angulation at high levels. The angulation builds as the turn develops. The first movement is still to the inside, so you're only teaching the first movement.

Woah Steve!! Say that again?
Don't know what you mean by "High Levels" but if you advocate skiing from the bottom up, angulation is followed by inclination. When you run out of angulation (and we are all different in achieving that) the pelvis needs to moves laterally inside to provide additional edge angles via inclination while the upper body remains as vertical as possible.

 

[Steve]

No interest in arguing technique, but here's a classic article that has been discussed before. http://youcanski.com/en/inclined-to-win-ski

Regardless of this article, angulation develops, it doesn't start the turn. However, please, I regret even posting in this thread as it is such a mess.

 

[LiquidFeet]

As you said, "Easy-peasy for us, but not for beginners so much"

IMO, any active/intentional movement to the inside (while at slow speed on low pitch terrain) be it ankle,knee, pelvis or trunk creates the potential to move the COM away from delivering pressure to the inside edge of the outside ski.

Does actively tipping and pointing the knee work? Sure, but at what long range cost? When it comes to creating turns, developing methods that train the skier to seek and hold balance with the inside edge of the new outside ski is paramount. In the end, shortcuts can only defeat that goal.

Back to reality, I do realize that instructors are put under stress to accomplish beginner redirection in a ridiculously short period of time. Hence the conundrum.

Of course directing pressure to the new outside ski's Big Toe Edge is essential; it's Thing #One. But if you keep the hips/torso in the right place as you tip/flex that new inside foot/ski/leg, that happens passively. Doing this does NOT necessarily and inevitably move the CoM to the inside, as it sounds like you are proposing above. Keeping pressure on the new outside ski's BTE is not incompatible or at odds with starting a turn by doing something with the new inside foot/ski/leg.

Have you tried starting a turn that way? If yes, I assume it went wrong, or you would not have this opinion of starting turns with attention to the new inside foot/ski/leg. Perhaps you moved your hip inside as you did it because you found the O-frame aesthetically offensive, or tipped your whole body as if it were the Leaning Tower of Piza. Just wildly guessing here. I'm trying to figure out why a seasoned and knowledgeable instructor would have this idea about inside action to start a turn. Perhaps I've misunderstood you?

By the way, teaching this is not a "shortcut." Perhaps I'm misunderstanding that part of your post. Do you think it is? I've found tipping the new outside ski to its BTE is waaay easier to teach. Yes, it works, but at what cost? IMO, this movement sets beginners up to push that new outside ski outward to an edge on its big toe edge as they encounter steeper terrain. This gets coupled with lengthening that leg and bracing against it, something we see all the time. That is a disadvantage of teaching beginners to turn the easy way.

 

[geepers]

^ Which one, C?

Does ^ mean the post above or an appeal to a higher authority? If post above, C was not the correct answer.

@Steve , interesting link. I note the author points out "Inclination, performed with the right timing and precision, is an art that takes years to master." He repeats that in this article Inclination As Integral Part of Modern Giant Slalom Technique - I wonder if optimising speed out of a GS turn, the primary topic of those 2 articles, is the right focus for improving free skiing over a range of skill levels.

Two other articles from that author are interesting:

Movement of the inside leg or matching the shins for effective arcs - there's a bullet point in there about the difficulty of having parallel shins when starting a low speed turn through inclination.

Use of the Inside Ski in Modern Race Turns - although also on racing it does discuss development from juniors up. (This earlier transfer to the inside ski was covered in a CSIA course I was on this season - our focus wasn't racing but the basic idea of progressive transfer of weight to the inside was similar.)

 

[geepers]

Of course directing pressure to the new outside ski's Big Toe Edge is essential; it's Thing #One. But if you keep the hips/torso in the right place as you tip/flex that new inside foot/ski/leg, that happens passively. Doing this does NOT necessarily and inevitably move the CoM to the inside, as it sounds like you are proposing above. Keeping pressure on the new outside ski's BTE is not incompatible or at odds with starting a turn by doing something with the new inside foot/ski/leg.

Have you tried starting a turn that way? If yes, I assume it went wrong, or you would not have this opinion of starting turns with attention to the new inside foot/ski/leg. Perhaps you moved your hip inside as you did it because you found the O-frame aesthetically offensive, or tipped your whole body as if it were the Leaning Tower of Piza. Just wildly guessing here. I'm trying to figure out why a seasoned and knowledgeable instructor would have this idea about inside action to start a turn. Perhaps I've misunderstood you?

By the way, teaching this is not a "shortcut." Perhaps I'm misunderstanding that part of your post. Do you think it is? I've found tipping the new outside ski to its BTE is waaay easier to teach. Yes, it works, but at what cost? IMO, this movement sets beginners up to push that new outside ski outward to an edge on its big toe edge as they encounter steeper terrain. This gets coupled with lengthening that leg and bracing against it, something we see all the time. That is a disadvantage of teaching beginners to turn the easy way.

Liquidfeet, what would you teach to an intermediate student who is inside every turn, basically using their inside ski to stop themselves falling over to the inside?

 

[LiquidFeet]

....@Steve , interesting link. I note the author points out "Inclination, performed with the right timing and precision, is an art that takes years to master." He repeats that in this article Inclination As Integral Part of Modern Giant Slalom Technique - I wonder if optimising speed out of a GS turn, the primary topic of those 2 articles, is the right focus for improving free skiing over a range of skill levels.....

Here's an image accompanying that link @Steve provided.

This skier has lifted his new outside shoulder, arm, elbow, and hand as he shortens the new inside leg and lengthens the new outside leg. All of this is happening at the top of the turn. The author states "The properly performed inclination is different from «leaning in», often defined as applying too much weight onto the inside ski too early in the turn, and considered by coaches and racers to be a gross technical error. "

He is indeed "inclined" at initiation, above the fall line. The title of the article is "Inclined to Win." Lifting that new outside shoulder/arm/elbow/hand is a move that gets him onto his new edges at a much higher angle than he would get if he "went bowlegged" or kept his torso upright or did his angulation early, above the fall line. There will be no time lost waiting for the edge angles to develop. Thus the "to Win" part of the title.

I stumbled upon this move one warm December day at Stratton. It was the end of the day, I was at the summit with a long run ahead to get back down to the lodge, I was tired and out of shape as it was very early season. The whole mountain was mashed potatoes. How to minimize fatigue and muscular stress?

I did not want to do huge long radius turns, nor even medium radius turns, because the G-forces would have been too much for my tired legs. I started doing short radius turns, and wanted to get high enough edge angles to cut through the glop without spending time in the turn where the forces would have the opportunity to build up. I threw up my new outside arm fast with each turn, inclined my way through the top of each turn, then angulated at the fall line to direct most/all the pressure to the outside ski. And I was not in a hurry, nor trying to win a race. My turns were effortless.

Oh, and I was flexing the new inside leg and tipping that foot to start each turn. I left the outside ski/foot/leg to do its thing on its own.

I have never taught anyone to do this since the turn mechanism would be so prone to misunderstanding.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Liquidfeet, what would you teach to an intermediate student who is inside every turn, basically using their inside ski to stop themselves falling over to the inside?

Lift the tail of the new inside ski. Start with doing this (thumpers) between turns, and progressively move the tail lifting towards the top of the turn. Goal is to have skier lift the tail at the very start of the turn, which directs pressure to the uphill/new outside ski before it tips to its new edges. Holding that tail up through the entire turn keeps the upper body in the right place (angulated-wise) to not fall over while directing all the pressure to the outside ski. It also helps keep the skier out of the back seat.

Once the skier is comfortable keeping the pressure on that outside ski with the tail of the inside ski lifted, progressively lower the tail while keeping pressure on that outside ski. Extra credit: at initiation lighten the new inside ski while ankle-tipping that foot to get the ski onto its new edge at the top of the turn.

I've found this drill to be very effective. I use it all the time, and so do many of the instructors in my ski school.

 

[James]

If post above, C was not the correct answer.

Joke, since you didn'r specify.

IMO, any active/intentional movement to the inside (while at slow speed on low pitch terrain) be it ankle,knee, pelvis or trunk creates the potential to move the COM away from delivering pressure to the inside edge of the outside ski.

In a wedge you're already inclined once you choose a direction. You'll move slightly in the direction you want to go. Your "softening" does that. It won't take pressure away, but allows it to exist and build.

But, people freak. They're afraid so they go uphill and move so far away from their outside/downhill ski that it will have almost no pressure on it. They then can go straight down the hill even though the ski is at like 80 deg to the fall line. Because they're leaning uphill .

People who end up on the inside can be from learning to push the outside ski to turn. Can be from fear- going away from downhill.

They most likely never learned to release their skis and make a proper turn. Whether by softening or tipping. Never learned to use line to control speed. They got good at bad habits and went too steep before learning how to release on easy terrain.

 

[Seldomski]

Inclining at the top of the turn? Why do that?

 

[James]

Effective use of the inside ski, with weight, is not necessarily an error in racing.
Unfortunately, this is a presentation, so we miss what was talked about:
http://www.ronlemaster.com/presentations/USSA-symposium-Copper-Mt-2015.pdf

 

[Steve]

In pretty much all of those turns in the Lemaster pdf the skiers start with inclination and develop angulation as the turn develops.

 

[JESinstr]

Of course directing pressure to the new outside ski's Big Toe Edge is essential; it's Thing #One. But if you keep the hips/torso in the right place as you tip/flex that new inside foot/ski/leg, that happens passively. Doing this does NOT necessarily and inevitably move the CoM to the inside, as it sounds like you are proposing above. Keeping pressure on the new outside ski's BTE is not incompatible or at odds with starting a turn by doing something with the new inside foot/ski/leg.

Have you tried starting a turn that way? If yes, I assume it went wrong, or you would not have this opinion of starting turns with attention to the new inside foot/ski/leg. Perhaps you moved your hip inside as you did it because you found the O-frame aesthetically offensive, or tipped your whole body as if it were the Leaning Tower of Piza. Just wildly guessing here. I'm trying to figure out why a seasoned and knowledgeable instructor would have this idea about inside action to start a turn. Perhaps I've misunderstood you?

By the way, teaching this is not a "shortcut." Perhaps I'm misunderstanding that part of your post. Do you think it is? I've found tipping the new outside ski to its BTE is waaay easier to teach. Yes, it works, but at what cost? IMO, this movement sets beginners up to push that new outside ski outward to an edge on its big toe edge as they encounter steeper terrain. This gets coupled with lengthening that leg and bracing against it, something we see all the time. That is a disadvantage of teaching beginners to turn the easy way.

I learned to hook (O) a ski back in the early seventies and also learned to use a flattening cheat to pass the then nonsensical straight traverse discipline at cert. With proper balance and alignment ingrained as a base for your movement patterns you can do whatever you want including initiating turns by focusing on tipping the inside foot or for that matter, doing white pass turns and to heck with the outside ski.

My experience with beginners is that it is all about balance, specifically controlling/suppressing upper body movements so focus comes to the arch of the foot. To assume that a beginner will have the subtle command of balance within the first 45 to 60 minutes of their first lesson is a stretch IMO. But I have been working on that. By employing the use of tension in both feet and hands I had positive results this past season.

When I come into a runout I often like to RR side to side. I can honestly say there is no consistency in what ski is leading that activity. Sometimes its a hook and sometimes it isn't and it really doesn't matter.

I will leave you with this Video of Mikaela. Whether her transition involves ILE or retraction, I don't see the inside foot playing the lead in edging activity at any point in the turning process.

 

[geepers]

Lift the tail of the new inside ski. Start with doing this (thumpers) between turns, and progressively move the tail lifting towards the top of the turn. Goal is to have skier lift the tail at the very start of the turn, which directs pressure to the uphill/new outside ski before it tips to its new edges. Holding that tail up through the entire turn keeps the upper body in the right place (angulated-wise) to not fall over while directing all the pressure to the outside ski. It also helps keep the skier out of the back seat.

Once the skier is comfortable keeping the pressure on that outside ski with the tail of the inside ski lifted, progressively lower the tail while keeping pressure on that outside ski. Extra credit: at initiation lighten the new inside ski while ankle-tipping that foot to get the ski onto its new edge at the top of the turn.

I've found this drill to be very effective. I use it all the time, and so do many of the instructors in my ski school.

Yep, some drill involving lifting the inside ski. My point being we wouldn't start with even more focus on using the inside ski until we'd got them to rely less on the inside ski for lateral balance.

Here's an image accompanying that link @Steve provided.

This skier has lifted his new outside shoulder, arm, elbow, and hand as he shortens the new inside leg and lengthens the new outside leg. All of this is happening at the top of the turn. The author states "The properly performed inclination is different from «leaning in», often defined as applying too much weight onto the inside ski too early in the turn, and considered by coaches and racers to be a gross technical error. "

He is indeed "inclined" at initiation, above the fall line. The title of the article is "Inclined to Win." Lifting that new outside shoulder/arm/elbow/hand is a move that gets him onto his new edges at a much higher angle than he would get if he "went bowlegged" or kept his torso upright or did his angulation early, above the fall line. There will be no time lost waiting for the edge angles to develop. Thus the "to Win" part of the title.

I stumbled upon this move one warm December day at Stratton. It was the end of the day, I was at the summit with a long run ahead to get back down to the lodge, I was tired and out of shape as it was very early season. The whole mountain was mashed potatoes. How to minimize fatigue and muscular stress?

I did not want to do huge long radius turns, nor even medium radius turns, because the G-forces would have been too much for my tired legs. I started doing short radius turns, and wanted to get high enough edge angles to cut through the glop without spending time in the turn where the forces would have the opportunity to build up. I threw up my new outside arm fast with each turn, inclined my way through the top of each turn, then angulated at the fall line to direct most/all the pressure to the outside ski. And I was not in a hurry, nor trying to win a race. My turns were effortless.

Oh, and I was flexing the new inside leg and tipping that foot to start each turn. I left the outside ski/foot/leg to do its thing on its own.

I have never taught anyone to do this since the turn mechanism would be so prone to misunderstanding.

I take it that you are using this as an example of applying inclination in free skiing? If so, good example and I'll have to give it a try. Somewhat doubtful of how this would play out with many intermediate skiers. This is from the 2nd article on inclination that I linked.

So how is inclination different from «banking» or simply «leaning in» (both of which are considered a gross technical error)? There is a fine line between the two that really makes a significant difference. While inclining, racer keeps his hips and shoulders level. Hips stay almost square to the skis in the beginning of the turn and progressively «open up» into the fall line helping to maintain an edge grip. Ski edge angle is created primarily by extended outside leg with minimal or no knee angulation. A small amount of tipping with the shoulders could result in putting extra weight on the inside ski and skidding the turn. A little too much inclination or doing it too abruptly would result in falling to the inside of the turn. Inclination performed with the right timing and precision is an art that takes years to master.​

This recent season I was working more on getting angles 1st, and then inclining by continuing to shorten the inside leg. More like

This just happens to be what's working for me at this point.

Joke, since you didn'r specify.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@geepers, I am not recommending teaching intermediates to incline at the start of the turn in this way.
I too am very doubtful of how this would play out with the level of clients I get.

 

[slowrider]

Occasionally I will get a athlete and you never know who they are. 12 yr old boy or a 30 yr old mom. They can jump levels in a matter of hours. Higher level drills are no problem. I am a firm believer in both skis engagement to start a turn.

 

[James]

@geepers, I am not recommending teaching intermediates to incline at the start of the turn in this way.
I too am very doubtful of how this would play out with the level of clients I get.

That's actually quite a lot of angulation in there.

You'd have to be going pretty fast to support that level of inclination.