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Youngsman

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I ran across the following on the PSIA website and would like to understand it better and how I might incorporate it. Any insights will be appreciated.

"The outside edge is the power (or brawn), and the inside is the guider (or brains). This demonstrates the fundamental that pressure is directed from outside ski (foot) to outside ski (foot), as the inside ski (foot) determines the size of the arc (turn)."
 

LiquidFeet

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@Youngsman, what that statement means is that the amount of ski tipping and leg shortening you do with the new inside ski/foot/leg determines the turn's radius, and that pressure goes naturally to the outside ski when you focus on the inside ski.

Tip that new inside ski, shorten that new inside leg, and a turn happens. The outside ski comes along with the inside ski without you having to focus on it. Pressure goes by default to the outside ski during the turn. If you want to shorten the turn as it continues, shorten that inside leg even more; bring its knee up to your chest.

You'll also need to do good stuff with the upper body and time things well too, but that's in addition to focusing your initiation movements on the inside half. That inside ski/foot/leg provides the guidance for the turn while you ride on the outside ski. Guide ski, ride ski.

Many people focus exclusively on the new outside ski as they start a turn, pushing it out across the snow to get pressure and edge. That doesn't work so well. The statement highlights the need to do things with the new inside ski/foot/leg instead of the new outside ski/foot/leg.
 

James

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I ran across the following on the PSIA website and would like to understand it better and how I might incorporate it. Any insights will be appreciated.

"The outside edge is the power (or brawn), and the inside is the guider (or brains). This demonstrates the fundamental that pressure is directed from outside ski (foot) to outside ski (foot), as the inside ski (foot) determines the size of the arc (turn)."
Edge angle determines the size of the arc assuming a carved turn. So the inside leg needs to get shorter to allow that to happen- well allow more edge angle and a tighter turn.
So, that last sentence is somewhat misleading. Especially since you could just carve on one foot - the outside.

But otherwise, yeah the inside foot is the guide/steering wheel, outside is the ride ski.
 
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Youngsman

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What drill might an instructor give to understand and develop this skill?

Also, how does this change when steering is added to turn?
 
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LiquidFeet

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@Youngsman here are some drills.

Straight run... lift the tail of the new inside ski... keep its tip on the snow... adjust upper body so you don't fall over... see what happens.
Straight run... lift the tail of the new inside ski... rotate that knee outwards (go bowlegged)... see what happens.
Straight run... tip the new inside ski to its little toe edge (lift the arch of that foot, ankle-tip) (also makes you go a bit bowlegged)... see what happens.
Straight run... tip that ski to its little toe edge with your ankle AND shorten the new inside leg... see what happens.
Straight run... tip the new inside ski to its little toe edge and lift its tail... see what happens. Feel that little toe edge biting the snow.
Straight run... slide the new inside ski back about 3-4"... see what happens.
Straight run... tip the new inside ski to its little toe edge... lift its tail, and slide the ski back about 3-4"... see what happens.
Straight run... tip the new inside ski to its little toe edge... keep the whole ski on the snow... slide the ski back about 3-4"... see what happens.
Straight run... shorten (flex) the new inside leg... keep that new inside ski on the snow... see what happens.
Straight run... shorten the new inside leg more, faster... keep the ski on the snow... see what happens.
Straight run... lift the new inside ski wholly off the snow... keep it parallel to the snow surface... see what happens.
Straight run... lift the new inside ski wholly off the snow... tip it to its little toe edge (lift the arch, go a bit bowlegged) in the air... see what happens.
Straight run... lighten the new inside ski without lifting it... see what happens.
Straight run... rotate the new inside knee outward (point it in the direction you want to go)... intend to go bowlegged... see what happens.
Straight run... rotate the new inside knee outward and combine this with some of the other movements... see what happens.


Mix and match... adjust upper body so you don't fall over... see what happens.
Increase tempo and intensity... see what happens.

The variables include tipping the ski to the little toe edge (raising the arch), flexing (shortening) the leg, lifting the tail, lifting the whole ski, lightening the ski on the snow, sliding the ski back, rotating (rolling, pointing) the new inside knee, going bowlegged. Did I miss something?
 
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Youngsman

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If you missed anything, i wouldn't be able to tell youogsmile. Thanks all for your responses.
 

James

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Uphill arcs. You can't get far up if you blow the bottom by sliding out. Getting the skis on edge, shortening the inside leg, keep everything going indide and up the hill. Aka forward. Inside hand ahead, indide leads. Amazed what people do with this. Become different. Does it last? No. But it's a start to feel it. Going uphill is much safer.
 

LiquidFeet

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....Also, how does this change when steering is added to turn?

I only use the word "steering" when I'm talking about rotating a ski across the snow. Other people use it differently, because it's a word with a fuzzy definition. In any event, it's important to have the pivot point under the foot. If that pivot point is in front of the toe piece, you're in tail-push territory and I wouldn't want to honor that movement by calling it "steering." Instructions to "steer" often end in tail-pushing due to misunderstanding.

There's steering at turn entry, and there's steering later in the turn. Two different things.

Steering at turn entry involves rotating the ski/foot/leg at initiation. You get that with foot rotation (limited ROM) and knee/thigh pointing, both of which I included in the list above. The alternative is to NOT rotate the ski at turn entry. All the other movements in that list upthread, the ones without the movements that intentionally rotate the inside ski across the snow, are non-steered turn entries. The snow turns the ski in those cases, not the skier. Experiment until you can feel the difference.
 

Dakine

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Yah!
"Straight run... rotate the new inside knee outward (point it in the direction you want to go)... intend to go bowlegged... see what happens."

Engaging the LTE by opening/flexing the knee is what separates park and ride from a true steered carve.
 

John J

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There isn't a single thing written about that I disagree with. My hope is just to add a bit of insight, which may or may not make things clearer. The problem with writing about skiing, is that often times crucial elements get left out, which I'm sure I'll do. Before we talk about shortening the inside leg, it's important to understand what has to happen before we can begin to unweight the inside ski.

When we ski, we want to finish our turns. To me, that means a couple of different things. The first, it means I want to make a round "C" shaped turn. The second, and this is what I want to emphasize, allow your feet to catch up with your body and come back underneath you, so your center of mass (COM) is over your feet or base of support (BOS), BEFORE WE MAKE OUR NEXT TURN. This is something that you have to FEEL. When that happens, your skis will now be flat on the snow, and your edges will be released. If you think of your feet as a tripod (the three anchor points being your heel, the big toe knuckle and the little toe knuckle), your weight will be evenly distributed across all 3 points. Since your skis are flat, the edges are released, your COM is over your BOS, your skis are free to start sliding into the fall line. This position offers the best bio-mechanical balance point to begin our next turn. So what's next?

So, If you want, you can stand up and try this. With feet together or shoulder width apart, lean your upper body side to side out over the floor. Try to lean as far to the side as you can. There is only so far you can lean your upper body right? So, now try moving/driving one of your hips forward. For the sake of this discussion, whatever hip you move forward will be considered your inside ski side. What happened? Your knee and ankle joint flexed or started to bend on the leg of the hip you moved forward. You may have also noticed that if you were wearing a pair of skis, your belly button would now be oriented or pointed towards the tip of what would now be your outside ski. From this hip forward position, now lean your upper body out over what would be your outside ski. Did you notice you have a greater range of motion than you did before you moved your inside hip forward? This greater range of motion is what allows us to PROGRESSIVELY weight our outside ski by being able to lean farther out over our outside ski. This in turn unweights and shortens our inside ski and allows us to either tip to a higher edge angle, or steer the inside ski. On a personal note, I used to be obsessed with carving. Now I find that I like to steer or schmear my turns. I find this more useful in a wider variety of snow and terrain conditions. For example, on icy steep slopes, the lower edge angle allows me to gliiiiiiide across icy patches of snow without blowing me up by falling to the inside of my turn. Conversely, when I would try to carve across an icy patch of snow, the harder I tried to dig my edges in, the more I would blow up and fall to the inside of my turn, putting me out of balance. Anyhow, the inside ski...now that we have a fundamental understanding of what has to happen, we can discuss steering the inside ski.

With our weight on our outside ski, the inside ski is mostly unweighted. Using our glutes and rotation from our femur, you can pivot or steer whatever turn shape you want with the inside ski, and the outside ski will follow suit. You can even steer back up the mountain for greater speed control and a smaller turn radius if you want. In my skiing, what is critical as I progress through the turn is to continuously and actively pull my inside ski back, creating a lot of pressure with my shin against the front of my boot. There is about a half a boot length of lead change when I do this. This is what keeps my COM over my BOS during the turn (balance), and I can still actively steer my inside ski.

Keep in mind, with all this talk about having your weight on your outside ski, it's important to understand that you can't just "dump all of your weight" on your outside ski at the start of a turn. One of my instructors calls this "MURDERING THE SNOW." So why can't we do this? Dumping all your weight in one fell swoop on your outside ski creates a compression, which shortens and over flexes the outside leg, which creates a blockage of movement. In other words, the joints are over flexed, and you have now used up your range of motion and the ability to absorb terrain changes. You want your joints available to absorb bumps and other terrain changes. That's why I mentioned earlier about PROGRESSIVELY weighting the outside ski, which happens as a result of shortening the inside leg, while the outside leg stays longer in comparison to the inside leg. Hope that makes sense.

So, just as a curve ball, understanding that the outside ski will do whatever the inside ski does, what's happening when we decide to do some javelin turns and steer or carve our outside ski under our inside ski, where the tip of the inside ski is pointing in the opposite direction of our outside ski? Just some food for thought. ;-) Cheers.
 

geepers

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There isn't a single thing written about that I disagree with. My hope is just to add a bit of insight, which may or may not make things clearer. The problem with writing about skiing, is that often times crucial elements get left out, which I'm sure I'll do. Before we talk about shortening the inside leg, it's important to understand what has to happen before we can begin to unweight the inside ski.

When we ski, we want to finish our turns. To me, that means a couple of different things. The first, it means I want to make a round "C" shaped turn. The second, and this is what I want to emphasize, allow your feet to catch up with your body and come back underneath you, so your center of mass (COM) is over your feet or base of support (BOS), BEFORE WE MAKE OUR NEXT TURN. This is something that you have to FEEL. When that happens, your skis will now be flat on the snow, and your edges will be released. If you think of your feet as a tripod (the three anchor points being your heel, the big toe knuckle and the little toe knuckle), your weight will be evenly distributed across all 3 points. Since your skis are flat, the edges are released, your COM is over your BOS, your skis are free to start sliding into the fall line. This position offers the best bio-mechanical balance point to begin our next turn. So what's next?

So, If you want, you can stand up and try this. With feet together or shoulder width apart, lean your upper body side to side out over the floor. Try to lean as far to the side as you can. There is only so far you can lean your upper body right? So, now try moving/driving one of your hips forward. For the sake of this discussion, whatever hip you move forward will be considered your inside ski side. What happened? Your knee and ankle joint flexed or started to bend on the leg of the hip you moved forward. You may have also noticed that if you were wearing a pair of skis, your belly button would now be oriented or pointed towards the tip of what would now be your outside ski. From this hip forward position, now lean your upper body out over what would be your outside ski. Did you notice you have a greater range of motion than you did before you moved your inside hip forward? This greater range of motion is what allows us to PROGRESSIVELY weight our outside ski by being able to lean farther out over our outside ski. This in turn unweights and shortens our inside ski and allows us to either tip to a higher edge angle, or steer the inside ski. On a personal note, I used to be obsessed with carving. Now I find that I like to steer or schmear my turns. I find this more useful in a wider variety of snow and terrain conditions. For example, on icy steep slopes, the lower edge angle allows me to gliiiiiiide across icy patches of snow without blowing me up by falling to the inside of my turn. Conversely, when I would try to carve across an icy patch of snow, the harder I tried to dig my edges in, the more I would blow up and fall to the inside of my turn, putting me out of balance. Anyhow, the inside ski...now that we have a fundamental understanding of what has to happen, we can discuss steering the inside ski.

With our weight on our outside ski, the inside ski is mostly unweighted. Using our glutes and rotation from our femur, you can pivot or steer whatever turn shape you want with the inside ski, and the outside ski will follow suit. You can even steer back up the mountain for greater speed control and a smaller turn radius if you want. In my skiing, what is critical as I progress through the turn is to continuously and actively pull my inside ski back, creating a lot of pressure with my shin against the front of my boot. There is about a half a boot length of lead change when I do this. This is what keeps my COM over my BOS during the turn (balance), and I can still actively steer my inside ski.

Keep in mind, with all this talk about having your weight on your outside ski, it's important to understand that you can't just "dump all of your weight" on your outside ski at the start of a turn. One of my instructors calls this "MURDERING THE SNOW." So why can't we do this? Dumping all your weight in one fell swoop on your outside ski creates a compression, which shortens and over flexes the outside leg, which creates a blockage of movement. In other words, the joints are over flexed, and you have now used up your range of motion and the ability to absorb terrain changes. You want your joints available to absorb bumps and other terrain changes. That's why I mentioned earlier about PROGRESSIVELY weighting the outside ski, which happens as a result of shortening the inside leg, while the outside leg stays longer in comparison to the inside leg. Hope that makes sense.

So, just as a curve ball, understanding that the outside ski will do whatever the inside ski does, what's happening when we decide to do some javelin turns and steer or carve our outside ski under our inside ski, where the tip of the inside ski is pointing in the opposite direction of our outside ski? Just some food for thought. ;-) Cheers.

By the way the inside heel is lifting seems to be a fair bit of snow murdering going on in the vid ... He's certainly killing it.


Guess there's more than one way to ski. Do you have any vid of this forward pushing of the new inside hip?
 

John J

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I think the video you provided is evidence enough. Look at where his inside hip is at each turn. It's leading the hip of the outside ski. Notice how much range of movement he has in order to level his shoulders to the snow. I never said it doesn't happen fast. And yeah, you're right... he's killing it !!! :golfclap:
 

geepers

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I think the video you provided is evidence enough. Look at where his inside hip is at each turn. It's leading the hip of the outside ski. Notice how much range of movement he has in order to level his shoulders to the snow. I never said it doesn't happen fast. And yeah, you're right... he's killing it !!! :golfclap:

Funny he doesn't list it as a bullet point. You'd kind of think that if he thought about his hips it would crop up as point 1 and 1/2. Or, at latest point 2 and 1/3. But... doesn't get a mention....

Neither does this guy....

Or this guy...

This guy talks about hips - but lifting of the inside.

This guy has a lot to say about natural lead change (which is what I suspect is being seen in Guy Dale's skiing).
 

JESinstr

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What I am about to say may be seen by many as being semantics but I believe it is fundamentally critical in teaching beginners the concept of turns.

There is no doubt that the inside ski shortens and tips. But proactive tipping of the inside ski, especially while using gravity for balance (as beginners are), will only project their mass (hence pressure) away from the outside ski, violating fundamental #2. Proactive, vertical softening, then shortening of the inside leg is the key skill that needs to be developed. It is this skill that allows the critical and subtle alignment with the inside edge of the new outside ski.

Unless your are knock kneed, the inside leg (as it shortens) will conform with the angle being developed by the outside leg and be complimentary until it actively participates in edging function as you enter the bottom and finish phase of the turn.

Those who advocate initiating via an active tipping of the inside ski are risking the tendency to move the mass inside before there is any force there to support it.
 

Noodler

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What I am about to say may be seen by many as being semantics but I believe it is fundamentally critical in teaching beginners the concept of turns.

There is no doubt that the inside ski shortens and tips. But proactive tipping of the inside ski, especially while using gravity for balance (as beginners are), will only project their mass (hence pressure) away from the outside ski, violating fundamental #2. Proactive, vertical softening, then shortening of the inside leg is the key skill that needs to be developed. It is this skill that allows the critical and subtle alignment with the inside edge of the new outside ski.

Unless your are knock kneed, the inside leg (as it shortens) will conform with the angle being developed by the outside leg and be complimentary until it actively participates in edging function as you enter the bottom and finish phase of the turn.

Those who advocate initiating via an active tipping of the inside ski are risking the tendency to move the mass inside before there is any force there to support it.

I don't want to start a religious war, but your interpretation of inside ski lifting and tipping is completely opposite of my own experience and my experience in teaching my 3 kids. Actively lifting and tipping the inside ski forces the development of learning to balance on the outside ski instead of becoming dependent on a wide stance "stable" platform that most skiers get stuck in.

I have seen skiers who never really tried lifting and tipping the inside ski, suddenly have the "light bulb" turn on when they do start doing it correctly. Developing the balance on the stance ski means that skiers will begin to counterbalance properly in order to have that balance. If you're falling to the inside too early, you're not sufficiently counterbalancing and, thus you are not actually balanced over the stance ski, but instead only balanced against any forces that may be present in the turn.
 

JESinstr

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There is no religious war here. Unlike some folks who advocate tipping the inside first, You got it right! And I don't recall advocating a wide stance.

Lift/soften/shorten... whatever words you choose, that is what allows you to build the angles required by the outside ski. Tipping the inside ski has little to do with the shape of the turn. Just like walking, running etc, the legs and feet will maintain a natural relationship.

It is all about balance priorities. One needs to consider what is the balance force of record at any point in time. Between release and initiation you are depending on Gravity for balance. If you are linking turns at sufficient velocity, you won't be under gravity for but a second. But if you are moving slowly or doing long radius turns you will be. This is my point and the condition under which most instructors are trying to teach beginners to turn.

Stand up in your stocking/bare feet and (under gravity), assume you are about to make a left turn, Focus on tipping your left foot. Your mass moves to the left and that would be fine if there was enough velocity and potential centripetal/turning force present to accommodate that move. But at low velocity, where beginners are trying to learn balance, there is only Gravity so they are, in effect, directing pressure AWAY from the outside ski by focusing on tipping the inside foot resulting in weight (pressure) transfer to the inside ski.

Now, if you focus more on softening/ the inside leg, your mass will have a better chance of aligning (balancing) with the inside edge of the outside ski and you will direct pressure (your weight) there until velocity and turning force develops and the building of angles ensues via shortening of the inside leg.

As I said this a subtle but important issue for instructors to understand IMO. I see too many instructors telling students to point their inside knee in the direction of the intended turn. Does it work? Yes, sometimes, but it's a cheat move at the expense of learning to properly balance with the inside edge of the outside ski. And maybe it's because many instructors are under time constraints, that they use that method.

Here is JF's Developing New Movement patterns which addresses the shortening of the inside leg. I don't think I once hear him talk about tipping the inside ski.

 

geepers

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Interstingly I have been told by a CSIA L4 to lead with an inside leg (and I've seen another L4 do it (whether consciously or not) once in one vid). However this was in the context of initiating the 1st turn after a straight run. Once the turns are under way it's incredibly difficult to say that the inside leg is leading as the tipping looks simultaneous.

Here's the inside leg move (1st turn to the left) but after that? Well you tell me.

Even HH. I hear what he's saying. And then I watch the skiing from 1:58 onwards. Is that inside move anything more than an internal trigger for all the connected parts to begin changing edges?

Simultaneous tipping seem a better bet since:
1. Tipping the inner leg without the outside leg also tipping leads to ski divergence - which is really intersting at speed.
2. Not tipping the inner leg enough means it gets in the way, leading to things like transfer of weight back to the inside, the inside foot wandering off on its own, excessive tip lead, A-framing and all sorts of inner weirdness.
3. JB (and others) say so.
 

Steve

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@Doby Man once put it to me this way. Think of having a rope tied between your legs. You want to keep it a constant distance, or taught.

If you tip your new inside leg first it pulls the rope and thus pulls the new outside leg with it.
If you tip your new outside leg first the rope goes slack.

So the mental focus of starting with the inside leg makes sense in this context, even if, as you say @geepers - simultaneous is the ultimate goal. It's still better to err on the side of inside first than outside first.
 

Noodler

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Interstingly I have been told by a CSIA L4 to lead with an inside leg (and I've seen another L4 do it (whether consciously or not) once in one vid). However this was in the context of initiating the 1st turn after a straight run. Once the turns are under way it's incredibly difficult to say that the inside leg is leading as the tipping looks simultaneous.

Here's the inside leg move (1st turn to the left) but after that? Well you tell me.

Even HH. I hear what he's saying. And then I watch the skiing from 1:58 onwards. Is that inside move anything more than an internal trigger for all the connected parts to begin changing edges?

Simultaneous tipping seem a better bet since:
1. Tipping the inner leg without the outside leg also tipping leads to ski divergence - which is really intersting at speed.
2. Not tipping the inner leg enough means it gets in the way, leading to things like transfer of weight back to the inside, the inside foot wandering off on its own, excessive tip lead, A-framing and all sorts of inner weirdness.
3. JB (and others) say so.

There is a difference between a skier's focus and intention versus the actual outcome that is seen by the "uninitiated". There is no "simultaneous" leg movement taught in PMTS. The intention and focus is to tip the inside leg first on all turn release types. HH's experience has been that any effort directed toward the stance ski will typically result in skiers going for the BTE of the new stance ski first (too early). This is quite common in skiers that were taught to ski through a progression beginning with wedge type turns.

So the intention must be LTE and then the BTE will "naturally" come along. In the end it just looks like beautiful simultaneous leg movements, but you will often see at slow speeds the development of an O-frame. The O-frame is something PMTS coaches want to see in students as it proves that your focus is on the LTE of the inside ski, not the BTE of the stance ski.
 

JESinstr

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@Doby Man once put it to me this way. Think of having a rope tied between your legs. You want to keep it a constant distance, or taught.

If you tip your new inside leg first it pulls the rope and thus pulls the new outside leg with it.
If you tip your new outside leg first the rope goes slack.

So the mental focus of starting with the inside leg makes sense in this context, even if, as you say @geepers - simultaneous is the ultimate goal. It's still better to err on the side of inside first than outside first.

Steve, Nice analogy.... Here it is demonstrated by Harb... oops, the rope must have slipped! Notice his left pole vs his right pole. Which one is supporting his weight?
Why is there upper body inclination? Again, this is under gravity (slow or no velocity) which is where we do our fundamental work with beginners. Why would you advocate such a move to someone relying on gravity to balance? If the left pole wasn't supporting him, he would be directing pressure to his inside ski. Totally against fundamental #2 . This is the problem of addressing a dynamic environment movement while standing still.


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