the inside ski (foot) determines the size of the arc

[James]

I like to tip both skis at the same time then soften my inside leg as the turn progresses.
View attachment 72726

That looks like you did some pretty active shortening of the inside leg. And you kept it on edge!
We wonder what you were thinking about. Fish and chips in the lodge, zoom zoom, motorcycles, airplanes, cars, the Kentucky Derby final turn?

 

[geepers]

This is what I mean by mixed bag.

Watching that, it's hard to come to the conclusion there's a automatic connection between tipping inside and movement of the outside. The skis clearly diverge. Other things have to happen for the outside ski to follow.

It's in this vid.

 

[James]

This is what I mean by mixed bag.

Watching that, it's hard to come to the conclusion there's a automatic connection between tipping inside and movement of the outside. The skis clearly diverge. Other things have to happen for the outside ski to follow.

It's in this vid.

Staring at the tips didn't help.
He had a malfunction there. Maybe that's why he got a knee replacement.

 

[dj61]

Staring at the tips didn't help.
He had a malfunction there. Maybe that's why he got a knee replacement.

Joking about knee replacements is anything but funny.

 

[Paul Shifflet]

Staring at the tips didn't help.
He had a malfunction there. Maybe that's why he got a knee replacement.

To demonstrate, he was over emphasizing the inside tipping. This over emphasis is possible, because there's no true biomechanical link between inside tipping and outside tipping. If there was a true link, and he did this excessive tipping, he'd whip around in a very sharp turn or lose the stable carve. Also, part of the teaching and another reason he can excessively tip the inside ski is because all the weight is on the outside ski. In his flub, he accidentally put some weight on the inside ski and experienced a true biomechanical reaction that happens from excessive tipping, i.e. the ski turned more than he wanted.

 

[François Pugh]

What can happen when someone has more weight on an outside ski that is tipped less, or not tipped yet, than an inside ski, perhaps because it is following it, is that one goes straight and the top of the inside edge of the inside ski catches. A quick correction may avoid a bad fall.

 

[JESinstr]

God knows why I bother to post but the actual answer is that it’s both. Which is why any decent coach who ever lived speaks of “tipping and flexing (shortening)” as linked and simultaneous movements. And anyone who tries notices that the tipping effort facilitates shortening of the inside leg. The entire “O frame” debate is a ridiculous and irrelevant distraction.

If you are saying that tipping the OUTSIDE SKI and shortening the INSIDE LEG are independent but coordinated and simultaneous movements, then I wholeheartedly agree.

If you are talking about tipping and shortening of the INSIDE SKI and LEG in pursuit inside ski turn initiation that doesn't make sense since shortening of the leg is not the direction needed for ski to surface engagement.

To demonstrate, he was over emphasizing the inside tipping. This over emphasis is possible, because there's no true biomechanical link between inside tipping and outside tipping. If there was a true link, and he did this excessive tipping, he'd whip around in a very sharp turn or lose the stable carve. Also, part of the teaching and another reason he can excessively tip the inside ski is because all the weight is on the outside ski. In his flub, he accidentally put some weight on the inside ski and experienced a true biomechanical reaction that happens from excessive tipping, i.e. the ski turned more than he wanted.

So if an expert skier screws up trying to do this why would we ever think this is the way to teach beginners to initiate a turn? In the end, isn't this really about balance and the training needed to keep the COM aligned with the inside edge of the outside ski throughout the turning process?

 

[James]

The mechanism even in hh demo is the whole body tips in due to shortening and letting the body go inside. You could get nearly the same result by just flexing/shortening the inside leg. Or just lifting the inside hip, though you can't get much out of that but works in the exercise below.

If you're going straight down a cat track and tip one foot to little toe side- you will either turn to that side or not. If you turn, you've let the body go that way. -Fall. If you don't, you just consviously stand on your left while tipping the right. The right will probably be mostly off tbe snow.

Joking about knee replacements is anything but funny.

Wasn't a joke. I get glitches in mine. Usually after getting off the chair though.

 

[geepers]

The mechanism even in hh demo is the whole body tips in due to shortening and letting the body go inside.

Don't think that's quite right. HH 2:18 to 3:06

I'm assuming "over the skis" is not static - moves inside with centripetal force.

Which is why any decent coach who ever lived speaks of “tipping and flexing (shortening)” as linked and simultaneous movements.

Does that apply to everyone, even those not at race level?

HH post. Extract:

The expert skier has a releasing process with three distinct steps: bending, flexing relaxing and or retracting the old stance or outside ski leg, is step one. This causes a weight or balance transfer to the uphill or little toe edged ski. With an expert skier this begins the crossing of the body toward angles for the new turn. With an intermediate skier, because they generate less forces due to smaller or lesser angles, tipping the newly released ski (toward its little toe edge) is an important additional movement.
​

So if an expert skier screws up trying to do this why would we ever think this is the way to teach beginners to initiate a turn? In the end, isn't this really about balance and the training needed to keep the COM aligned with the inside edge of the outside ski throughout the turning process?

Perhaps that's a little uncharitable - any expert will screw up occasionally.

But, yep, lateral balance.


There's a few extra articles on this I've come across.
From @razie site:
http://www.effectiveskiing.com/wiki/carving-blog/Focusing_on_the_Inside_Ski
http://www.effectiveskiing.com/Drill/The_Phantom - note the bit about this drill being a cousin of The Phantom.

Also from the JAM guys:
MORE INTERNAL, LESS EXTERNAL
Have to hit the Translate button and wade through some rough google italian -> english.

After reading JAM and re-watching the HH vid I can almost convince myself that there's a causal link between inside and outside:
1. Stand with both feet flat on floor and imagine about to turn. Flex some amount at the knees.
2. Roll inside foot onto LTE edge retaining a small amount of weight on it and keeping heel in contact with the ground. The inside knee will have to rotate inside a little and the upper body will have to counter-balance over the outside foot.
3. Try to keep tipping the inside foot. Very shortly I can no longer tip without either: further removing weight from the inside foot and eventually lifting it off the floor; OR placing more weight on it so I can move my body inside (but this is at the expense of taking weight off the outside). That is unless I also tip the outside foot/leg, increasing upper body counter to stay balanced over the outside foot.

 

[James]

I'm assuming "over the skis" is not static - moves inside with centripetal force.

No, com moves inside, then your ski is on edge and you turn. Stay totally over your skis and you'll just go straight. What he's talking about creates angulation/counterbalance so you don't fall over. You're still falling inside a bit. He spells it out. Listen again.

Just because you tip one foot to little toe does not mean you'll turn. It's a great way to initiate a flat spin with very little body rotation. I could say none, but I'm sure we usually cheat.
On your cat track going straight. Tip one ski to little toe edge, but stay upright and balanced on the other foot. When you tip on edge, you're lifting it ever so slightly. The goal is to create a bit of drag with that edge. This will start to spin you towards that ski and you put it flat down and go around.

I confess I didn't watch the other yet.

 

[geepers]

No, com moves inside, then your ski is on edge and you turn. Stay totally over your skis and you'll just go straight. What he's talking about creates angulation/counterbalance so you don't fall over. You're still falling inside a bit. He spells it out. Listen again.

Yeah, we've been around this loop before. Platform angle.

 

[James]

Yeah, we've been around this loop before. Platform angle.

You still have the tail wagging the dog.

That's not quite right...
I'm assuming "over the skis" is not static - moves inside with centripetal force

It's not "moves inside with centripetal force" . It's move inside leads to creating centripetal force.

 

[dj61]

My view on the OP's question (remember that one): I look at the inside leg as the steering wheel. Tipping, flexing affects the turn shape. But there are other factors involved: tires, suspension, wheel base, etc. Same goes for skiing: amount of tipping, ski shape, snow base, etc.
I watched the Interski demo's and some of the training sessions. The best skiing was demonstrated in my view by Austria, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Korea. Especially when it comes down to short turns. These countries differ somewhat in style but the basic technique is very similar. You can see all skiers pull back and tip the inside foot (inside foot coming of the snow) and flex the inside leg. And more often than not when I see people struggling on pistes, they have no idea what to do with the inside leg.
Watch Victor in slow-mo at 1.13 to see a great skier using the inside foot (and creating an o-frame for 1/10 of a second).
Or listen to Josh and his discussion with the Austrian ski team.

 

[James]

Did you see him race the drone?

 

[Mike King]

No, com moves inside, then your ski is on edge and you turn. Stay totally over your skis and you'll just go straight. What he's talking about creates angulation/counterbalance so you don't fall over. You're still falling inside a bit. He spells it out. Listen again.

Just because you tip one foot to little toe does not mean you'll turn. It's a great way to initiate a flat spin with very little body rotation. I could say none, but I'm sure we usually cheat.
On your cat track going straight. Tip one ski to little toe edge, but stay upright and balanced on the other foot. When you tip on edge, you're lifting it ever so slightly. The goal is to create a bit of drag with that edge. This will start to spin you towards that ski and you put it flat down and go around.

I confess I didn't watch the other yet.

@James, I don’t think this is right. You can be totally over the skis, but because they are edged, they will turn. For them to go straight, they have to be flat.

Next, if you move the body in first, it is likely that you will wind up with pressure directed to the inside foot with maximum pressure coming well into the finish of the turn. The knees need to lead the movement inside otherwise you wind up with not enough room to establish angulation.

@JESinstr, sure, I teach beginners who are making wedge or wedge Christie’s to soften the downhill leg and flatten the downhill ski. It’s a matter of degree, but the mechanics of wedge turns are similar to those of high performance turns. Teach nothing at low levels that has to be unlearned at higher levels.

 

[James]

Review critical edge angle.
You need an angle less than 90 from the edge to your center of mass. Otherwise, they slip.
You don't need to be inside much.

 

[Mike King]

Review critical edge angle.
You need an angle less than 90 from the edge to your center of mass. Otherwise, they slip.
You don't need to be inside much.

]
Even so, there will be a turning force associated with the tipped ski due to the side cut of the ski. Look at LeMasters Ultimate Skiing — I’m on a plane so don’t have it with me.

 

[JESinstr]

The mechanism even in hh demo is the whole body tips in due to shortening and letting the body go inside.

James, On a second read of the above, (and I hope I didn't take it out of context) the "mechanism" depends on the ingrained movement patterns the skier brings to the situation which, when it comes to balance is top down. In skiing we turn this concept upside down and promote balance from the bottom up dir.

@James, I don’t think this is right. You can be totally over the skis, but because they are edged, they will turn. For them to go straight, they have to be flat.

Next, if you move the body in first, it is likely that you will wind up with pressure directed to the inside foot with maximum pressure coming well into the finish of the turn. The knees need to lead the movement inside otherwise you wind up with not enough room to establish angulation.

@JESinstr, sure, I teach beginners who are making wedge or wedge Christie’s to soften the downhill leg and flatten the downhill ski. It’s a matter of degree, but the mechanics of wedge turns are similar to those of high performance turns. Teach nothing at low levels that has to be unlearned at higher levels.

Couldn't agree more! Many of my posts (and all that I a posted in this thread) are about teaching that which spans the beginner through the expert. Stance and balance with the outside ski, while using a shortening of the inside leg to promote angle building is one of them. BTW my experience is that when you teach this methodology from the get go, when you get to wedge christies, the matching of the skis is a no brainer......well almost!

 

[James]

]
Even so, there will be a turning force associated with the tipped ski due to the side cut of the ski. Look at LeMasters Ultimate Skiing — I’m on a plane so don’t have it with me.

Yea, there's room, true. Annoyed I didn't get skiing today.

 

[geepers]

Review critical edge angle.
You need an angle less than 90 from the edge to your center of mass. Otherwise, they slip.
You don't need to be inside much.

Just so we're thinking about the same angle.

When I hear "over my ski" that's what I'm thinking about.