The fascinating wedge

[Tricia]

like most of us, I learned to ski from a boyfriend who showed me how to snowplow to control my speed,then told me to never slow down because he wasn't waiting for me.

After (what seemed like) years of learning to control speed through turn shape, I decided to become a ski instructor, and was told to demonstrate a wedge Christie. For the life of me, I couldn't do it.

Now I'm fascinated at how the wedge Christie demonstration reveals a lot about a persons skiing and balance.

What elements go into a wedge Christie demonstration?

 

[Jilly]

Well the CSIA calls it a wedge turn. From my recollection - balance and steering were to 2 major things. Progression would be balancing on the outside ski.

 

[Monique]

I am still confused between a stem and a Christie. I know I've read an explanation - but could you give it to me?

My first day on the slopes, I apparently "naturally" picked up the stem Christie (or maybe it was the wedge Christie - my boyfriend's mom told me that's what happened, and she wasn't an instructor). Wedges were just too much work. Then I took an afternoon beginner lesson, and the instructor just got annoyed at me because I wouldn't do wedges. It took me a while to be able to do a proper wedge.

 

[SBrown]

My mother could be a PSIA video model for the wedge christie. It ensures she never exceeds 5 mph, as well.

 

[KevinF]

I am still confused between a stem and a Christie. I know I've read an explanation - but could you give it to me?

My first day on the slopes, I apparently "naturally" picked up the stem Christie (or maybe it was the wedge Christie - my boyfriend's mom told me that's what happened, and she wasn't an instructor). Wedges were just too much work. Then I took an afternoon beginner lesson, and the instructor just got annoyed at me because I wouldn't do wedges. It took me a while to be able to do a proper wedge.

My understanding is that a "stem" is the result of pushing off (or actively moving in some way) the new outside ski. If you start a right turn by pushing off on your left ski, then your left tail will move up the hill, your left tip will converge on your right tip and you now have a "stem". In bob Barnes' parlance, this is a "negative move" -- i.e., a stem is up-the-hill away-from-the-turn.

A "wedge" is you trying to move the new inside ski first, but -- due to the differing rates of rotation most people have in their legs -- the outside ski tends to turn faster. Which again leads to a similar looking position as a stem (i.e., tips closer than the tails), but you didn't get there in the same fashion.. In Bob Barnes' parlance, this is a "positive" move -- everything you're actively doing is into the new turn.

And the "christie" part is that at some point in the turn the skis become parallel again. How you reached parallel skis is again different -- in a wedge, the rates of rotation of your legs catch up and the skis become parallel. In a stem, it's probably because you realize your outside ski is about to run over your inside ski, so you make them parallel.

 

[James]

Stem christie is a step or slide of the outside ski. Eg. to go right you are stepping the left ski out and at an angle with tip towards the right. You can also slide it on the snow.

What you're doing is instantly establishing a steering angle. Your outside ski is now at an angle to your travel direction and will start changing your path when there's some weight on it. You then match the inside ski to it. If the stem is small you can steer the inside ski parallel to the outside.

Basically it cuts the top of the turn off. It's actually quite useful in trees. I actually teach it for that. ( this is trees with packed snow. Stemming in powder could be problematic without a monster Fatypus ski)
You're close to the tree going across the hill. Step out your left ski into a turn and match the inside. You're now turning around the tree.

So "Christie" comes from Christiana. A "town" or region in Norway that later became Oslo.
Like Telemark, of telemark turn, is a region in Norway. Both types were developed by Sondre Norheim I think.

Christiana turn would have been the early parallel (ish) turn as opposed to the telemark style turn. Don't forget there were no bindings, you used leather thongs to strap the ski on, and boots were short leather.

Stem christie used to be part of a learning progression to parallel. It has not been so for at least two decades and probably 3 but @Bob Barnes could tell you.

A wedge christie is steering the inside ski to match the outside ski. To do it " correctly" the tips of skis open - you steer the inside in direction of turn, instead of closing the tails to match the skis. It demonstrates independent leg steering.

By far the biggest problem with demoing wedges and wedge christies is excessive speed. Most go way too fast. You can actually demo a wedgie christie by trying to do a slow parallel turn. Bring the turn uphill a little slmost to a stall. ( stop) When you start the new turn you will naturally make a wedge. Again, these are slow. I'd estimate that 7/10 instructors not recently in an exam training or demoing environment, will go too fast.
( I've seen it in an exam- even by an examiner too when not testing for the maneuver specifically)

So slow way down! Use line to control speed. Just doing that will set you up for good turns. Excessive speed will cause many, many problems from backseat to closing to match to just skiing parallel. Also too steep terrain will cause weird things.

Here's @Bob Barnes illustration of matching versus closing. You want matching for wedge christie. Guide the inside tip around the turn. ( guide both actually)

 

[Tricia]

Stem christie is a step or slide of the outside ski. Eg. to go right you are stepping the left ski out and at an angle with tip towards the right. You can also slide it on the snow.

What you're doing is instantly establishing a steering angle. Your outside ski is now at an angle to your travel direction and will start changing your path when there's some weight on it. You then match the inside ski to it. If the stem is small you can steer the inside ski parallel to the outside.

Basically it cuts the top of the turn off. It's actually quite useful in trees. I actually teach it for that. ( this is trees with packed snow. Stemming in powder could be problematic without a monster Fatypus ski)
You're close to the tree going across the hill. Step out your left ski into a turn and match the inside. You're now turning around the tree.

So "Christie" comes from Christiana. A "town" or region in Norway that later became Oslo.
Like Telemark, of telemark turn, is a region in Norway. Both types were developed by Sondre Norheim I think.

Christiana turn would have been the early parallel (ish) turn as opposed to the telemark style turn. Don't forget there were no bindings, you used leather thongs to strap the ski on, and boots were short leather.

Stem christie used to be part of a learning progression to parallel. It has not been so for at least two decades and probably 3 but @Bob Barnes could tell you.

A wedge christie is steering the inside ski to match the outside ski. To do it " correctly" the tips of skis open - you steer the inside in direction of turn, instead of closing the tails to match the skis. It demonstrates independent leg steering.

By far the biggest problem with demoing wedges and wedge christies is excessive speed. Most go way too fast. You can actually demo a wedgie christie by trying to do a slow parallel turn. Bring the turn uphill a little slmost to a stall. ( stop) When you start the new turn you will naturally make a wedge. Again, these are slow. I'd estimate that 7/10 instructors not recently in an exam training or demoing environment, will go too fast.
( I've seen it in an exam- even by an examiner too when not testing for the maneuver specifically)

So slow way down! Use line to control speed. Just doing that will set you up for good turns. Excessive speed will cause many, many problems from backseat to closing to match to just skiing parallel. Also too steep terrain will cause weird things.

Here's @Bob Barnes illustration of matching versus closing. You want matching for wedge christie. Guide the inside tip around the turn. ( guide both actually)

Great post

 

[dustyfog]

Thanks - that definition and contrast of a wedge christie vs a stem christie was quite illuminating for the non-instructor (i.e. student)

Stem christie is a step or slide of the outside ski. Eg. to go right you are stepping the left ski out and at an angle with tip towards the right. You can also slide it on the snow.

What you're doing is instantly establishing a steering angle. Your outside ski is now at an angle to your travel direction and will start changing your path when there's some weight on it. You then match the inside ski to it. If the stem is small you can steer the inside ski parallel to the outside.

Basically it cuts the top of the turn off. It's actually quite useful in trees. I actually teach it for that. ( this is trees with packed snow. Stemming in powder could be problematic without a monster Fatypus ski)
You're close to the tree going across the hill. Step out your left ski into a turn and match the inside. You're now turning around the tree.

So "Christie" comes from Christiana. A "town" or region in Norway that later became Oslo.
Like Telemark, of telemark turn, is a region in Norway. Both types were developed by Sondre Norheim I think.

Christiana turn would have been the early parallel (ish) turn as opposed to the telemark style turn. Don't forget there were no bindings, you used leather thongs to strap the ski on, and boots were short leather.

Stem christie used to be part of a learning progression to parallel. It has not been so for at least two decades and probably 3 but @Bob Barnes could tell you.

A wedge christie is steering the inside ski to match the outside ski. To do it " correctly" the tips of skis open - you steer the inside in direction of turn, instead of closing the tails to match the skis. It demonstrates independent leg steering.

By far the biggest problem with demoing wedges and wedge christies is excessive speed. Most go way too fast. You can actually demo a wedgie christie by trying to do a slow parallel turn. Bring the turn uphill a little slmost to a stall. ( stop) When you start the new turn you will naturally make a wedge. Again, these are slow. I'd estimate that 7/10 instructors not recently in an exam training or demoing environment, will go too fast.
( I've seen it in an exam- even by an examiner too when not testing for the maneuver specifically)

So slow way down! Use line to control speed. Just doing that will set you up for good turns. Excessive speed will cause many, many problems from backseat to closing to match to just skiing parallel. Also too steep terrain will cause weird things.

Here's @Bob Barnes illustration of matching versus closing. You want matching for wedge christie. Guide the inside tip around the turn. ( guide both actually)

 

[Josh Matta]

S

By far the biggest problem with demoing wedges and wedge christies is excessive speed. Most go way too fast. You can actually demo a wedgie christie by trying to do a slow parallel turn. Bring the turn uphill a little slmost to a stall. ( stop) When you start the new turn you will naturally make a wedge. Again, these are slow. I'd estimate that 7/10 instructors not recently in an exam training or demoing environment, will go too fast.
( I've seen it in an exam- even by an examiner too when not testing for the maneuver specifically)

If you start to wedge christie just by slowing down your parallel skiing, that shows a lack of understanding of what the difference between a Wedge Christie and open parallel is. The difference between them for our students might be that, but for students of the sport speed and turn shape and size should not be part of the equation between wedge christie and open parrellel.

Wedge christie is a lack of inside foot edging, lightening, and inside leg shorting. If one of those is lacking or not falling into the correct DIRT modeal a student will continue to do some sort of wedge or stem between turns. As a instructor this is what we turn "off" to do the demo. Its is something that I NEVER directly teach and IMO although it does show some skills I feel should go away from the demo reel of the PSIA.

I teach wedge turners(and just to be clear I do teach wedge turns) these ideas to get to matched skis. This all assuming that their wedge turn is being done with actually femur in hip socket steering, if they do not have that then I go back and teach that.

1. Active Balance transfer to the outside ski in perfect world this happens almost passively but in a imperfect world with body twisted and leaners, and mis footing boots, hill that are too steep and double fall lines I find downhill foot traverses to be a gift from the spaghetti monster itself.

2. Active inside leg shortening (or bending, or flexing)

3. Active Inside foot edging(or tipping, or leaning)

4. Active inside foot lightening(or unweighted)

 

[Kneale Brownson]

What usually happens to an instructor who fails to demonstrate a wedge christie is they make the transfer of weight to the new outside ski too complete too early so that they lose the steering input to the new inside ski. That "almost passive" transfer is key to a successful demo. If you traverse a slope in a wedge, you HAVE TO have more pressure on the downhill ski. If you begin to equalize the pressure on the skis with a gradual opening of the uphill knee joint, they will begin to turn toward the fall line.

 

[Josh Matta]

What usually happens to an instructor who fails to demonstrate a wedge christie is they make the transfer of weight to the new outside ski too complete too early so that they lose the steering input to the new inside ski. That "almost passive" transfer is key to a successful demo. If you traverse a slope in a wedge, you HAVE TO have more pressure on the downhill ski. If you begin to equalize the pressure on the skis with a gradual opening of the uphill knee joint, they will begin to turn toward the fall line.

The reality is, this demo is pedantic at best.

I look at coaching like this.

First you have a solid wedge turn doing proper leg steering mostly with some minor balance transfer and tipping move, and you coach open parallel on on easy slope. Is the student going to wedge christie on their way their? yep, but do we need to make instructors do a contrived exercises for exam or pay so much attention it? Really I think not.

The other one that drive me crazy about the wedge and wedge christie demos in exams is this idea. I coach open parallel on the easiest slope I can find. Quite often in exams they have candidate do these task on steeper than easiest terrain and it just doesnt make sense to me, and I feel it also show these PSIA people the wrong idea about these levels of skiing. I feel that the only success I ever have with teaching offensive matched moves to the majority of people is starting on the easiest or almost easiest terrain.

 

[Tricia]

I feel like the demonstration revealed some of what I needed to fix in my skiing.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Absolutely, Trisha. The exam value is the revelation. Lack of success probably shows a skill lack that also appears in higher levels of skiing

 

[Lorenzzo]

A wedge christie produces no significant dietary or metabolic consequences whereas a doug christie is like to suck up any loose christmas candy lying around today.

 

[Living Proof]

The reality is, this demo is pedantic at best.

I look at coaching like this.

First you have a solid wedge turn doing proper leg steering mostly with some minor balance transfer and tipping move, and you coach open parallel on on easy slope. Is the student going to wedge christie on their way their? yep, but do we need to make instructors do a contrived exercises for exam or pay so much attention it? Really I think not.

First, I am an outsider with respect to PSIA coaching and, follow the writings of school of skiing that touts direct parallel. Don't want to start any discussion on that topic, but, I'm in total agreement with Josh's thinking of moving to basic parallel skiing ASAP. It kills me at my home mountain to see aspiring Level 2 candidates practicing wedge type turns, when, many have stemming movements in their parallel skiing. There is an active thread where many are coaching a member about how to eliminate a wedge. Simple truth is the longer a new skier wedges, the harder it will be to overcome. Perhaps, the best thing I ever did as a new skier was to spend a week in a ski school where by the end, I skied with my feet together (that was decades ago in the short ski era). With my limited PSIA exposure, coupled with discussions of lower level PSIA instructors while riding chairs, it just seems they are locked into the value of the "facinating" wedge, sorry, I don't get the point.

 

[Chris Geib]

Yeah, interesting those old fogey's keep that stuff around!

I wonder if those ole codgers have a bit of wisdom that might be worth exploring further? Personally, I suspect so...

 

[Josh Matta]

I feel like the demonstration revealed some of what I needed to fix in my skiing.

it can show some things but you will see the same things in wedge turns and open parallel skiing.

First, I am an outsider with respect to PSIA coaching and, follow the writings of school of skiing that touts direct parallel. Don't want to start any discussion on that topic, but, I'm in total agreement with Josh's thinking of moving to basic parallel skiing ASAP. It kills me at my home mountain to see aspiring Level 2 candidates practicing wedge type turns, when, many have stemming movements in their parallel skiing. There is an active thread where many are coaching a member about how to eliminate a wedge. Simple truth is the longer a new skier wedges, the harder it will be to overcome. Perhaps, the best thing I ever did as a new skier was to spend a week in a ski school where by the end, I skied with my feet together (that was decades ago in the short ski era). With my limited PSIA exposure, coupled with discussions of lower level PSIA instructors while riding chairs, it just seems they are locked into the value of the "facinating" wedge, sorry, I don't get the point.

well first a Stem Christie and Wedge Christie are 2 different things. To make things even more complicated you can Wedge turn buy moving down the hill(the right way), and you can wedge turn by moving up the hill aka the Stem which is almost always wrong.

The wedge teach separation at the hip and femur joint and make it far easier for novices with limited balance to remain stable and hopefully find though some guiding their outside ski balance. Wedge turns if done correctly will lead to no bad habits, the issue is the majority of PSIA instructors even some L3s teach wedge turns with awful movements like hip twisting, outside tip lead, outside ski edging(with out inside ski flattening), bracing on the outside ski.......instead of balancing, and arm twisting. I cringe whenever I see this, I will actually talk to instructors I see doing this, away from their students of course. So I feel your disapproval of what the PSIA on average is doing and its not going to change overall ever simply because the majority of people just do not take it that seriously. @Mike Thomas saw 2 kids I have had for the past 4 years(since they were never evers) and they do not wedge, or stem and quite frankly can do things at speed I am finding kind of frighting they started of wedge turning.

I wanted to point out a 3 year old that I have had now for about 20 days total, in this video it was 11 days total skiing well each day was 2-3 hours long at 3 good luck skiing for longer. (every single hour with me), She learned to wedge turn and its still present at 3 she simple is not balanced enough her outside ski or able to seperate enough but once she has the cordination she will make a better parrallel turn than 95 percent of the skiers on the hill. BTW I have complete permission to post this video from the parents.


for those PSIA people Gwen is doing a wedge christie, and not a stem christie. If I get a chance I film the progress this year at 4.


The issue I find with DTP and PMTS is that you can not find CA/CB with out actively separating your femur from your hip joint. most DTP students I have seen and taught who have been DTP/PMTS from the start or from near the start tend to twist and turn and bank their hip and if their is any separation it tend to happen in their spine and not their hip socket. Video would be nice but PMTSer except for the elite are unwilling to post video, and the majority of the elite have an understanding of skiing in general greater than the average skiing IQ and weather they know or not, they are extremely aware that the hip socket is separating and that they are effectively twisting their hips against their femur(which is attached to their stance foot). PMTS has a ton of stuff right though and the PSIA could learn a thing or two from the phantom move and the PMTS obsession with alignment.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

First, I am an outsider with respect to PSIA coaching and, follow the writings of school of skiing that touts direct parallel. Don't want to start any discussion on that topic, but, I'm in total agreement with Josh's thinking of moving to basic parallel skiing ASAP. It kills me at my home mountain to see aspiring Level 2 candidates practicing wedge type turns, when, many have stemming movements in their parallel skiing. There is an active thread where many are coaching a member about how to eliminate a wedge. Simple truth is the longer a new skier wedges, the harder it will be to overcome. Perhaps, the best thing I ever did as a new skier was to spend a week in a ski school where by the end, I skied with my feet together (that was decades ago in the short ski era). With my limited PSIA exposure, coupled with discussions of lower level PSIA instructors while riding chairs, it just seems they are locked into the value of the "facinating" wedge, sorry, I don't get the point.

Well, I have to say I totally disagree with that. Everything that is wrong with those skiers parallel will be present in their wedges and wedge christies and can be addressed there. Spending some time working to get it right will make them a better skier. There is a big difference too between teaching a ski instructor and teaching the public. I would never, ever "teach a wedge christie" to someone who is not an instructor. A wedge-christie is just something that happens somewhere between wedge and parallel. But an instructor has to understand it.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

@Josh Matta Gwen is awesome! I wish you had been my boy's instructor back in the day. Kudos!

 

[bud heishman]

I feel like the demonstration revealed some of what I needed to fix in my skiing.

and this is exactly why it is an exam demonstration. No, most instructors do not teach it but they should understand the mechanics of it and be able to demonstrate the skills required to do it properly.

And I concur with Mr. Matta regarding the observation that many PSIA instructors can not demonstrate the wedge christie properly, but this does not mean the top end of PSIA does not recognize the proper skills of a wedge christie. and regarding the phantom move and alignment, some PSIA folks have been doing this before HH was relevant. The bottom line is this demonstration highlights parallel turn mechanics which bridge the gap between wedge turns and parallel turns. As Josh suggested, if the proper parallel turn mechanics are taught/learned using a wedge ski position as training wheels, the skier will easily and smoothly transition into christies. At this juncture developing an earlier weight shift and an accurate trajectory will lead to parallel turns provided the student is kept in a non threatening environment permitting them to maintain an offensive attitude.

I am very proud of my current ski school at Northstar where we as a training group emphasize the rotary skill in lower level turns with our new hires and level I candidates to insure they understand the contrast between the different skill blends and their effects. Unfortunately, even after 10 days of training for each new hire, I still see many go to pressure and edging skills right away. It is frustrating to say the least but we keep hounding them to focus on the rotary emphasis.