Teaching Turn Initiation to Upper Int. & Advanced Skiers

[James]

Hi Mike,

Reilly and P.Lorenz - did you mean they were in TOP50 in WorldCup Alpine? I cannot find their FIS records...only some "demo", "technical" and mogul competitions...

No, Japanese Technical Competitions. I doubt it's FIS sanctioned but has been going on for nearly 60 years.

The claim was that none of the interski skiers would place in the Top 50 of a Japanese technical comp, but McGlashan and Lorenz have.

You have that 100% backwards. The claim was that wcup skiers, including Hirscher, wouldn't place in the top 50 of a Japanese Tech Comp.(Unless they devoted time to train and actually cared). Lorenz, McGlashan have videos of their comps all over the place. You missed the whole point. At least in NZ/Aus seems technique basically heads to the Japanese Tech as a model. Don't know how many others besides Japan. Wouldn't expect it of Austria, France, Italy, Switz, Germany because of racing foundation.

The claim was that none of the interski skiers would place in the Top 50 of a Japanese technical comp, but McGlashan and Lorenz have.
Ok. Because their technique is different from WC racers. I personally do not like "Japan style - beauty for eyes", real effectivity is shown in gates and ice.
But it is different story, little bit off topic(maybe).

That's the point. A lot of technique posted of "how to ski", or the "best way to ski" seems geared to the McGlashan/Lorenz/Japanese Tech style. No racer I've seen free skis that way let alone races.

They spend hours in the pool swimming thousands of meters every week but their mechanics are poor. They get themselves tied up in knots when a 60-year old woman laps their 30-something selves over and over again. Their strength and conditioning far exceeds mine, but I have the mechanics. Unless they get proper coaching and change something they could spend 10 hours a day in the pool to my one and I'll still lap them every 300 meters.]]

Interesting point. I don't think it fully applies to skiing though. Swimming, running, biking, are repetitive motions. So if there's a flaw in the basic movement, this gets repeated thousands of times. Those are also timed sports. So, if you're talking Ski racing there's some correlation but even there the plaing field is so different. There's plenty who can make it with odd technique. Mentality and power can overcome this, combined with tactics. It sort of goes back to the technical skiing. In racing no one cares you make pretty round turns. They're slow. Most slalom turns aren't round and start near the fall line. Get on and get off, not describe some fancy arc.

Outside of racing, generally terrain is the motivator. Plenty of people get down some pretty difficult stuff with odd technique. I'd say zipper bumps probably coalesces around a specific technique that's required and if not present to a decent degree, one can't do it.

 

[markojp]

Depends on where one teaches. At the first two ski schools where I taught back when I was a LI, no guidance was given on what technical things to teach any student at any level. It was up to each instructor to come up with whatever they thought might work, on their own. At my current school, one trainer does a training session focusing on a progression for teaching first day beginner adults that every new hire, no matter what cert level, has to take. Some get missed, but most of us were walked through it.

Point: different SSDs do things differently.

Man o' man, that's just hard to wrap one's head around. Were they both PSIA affiliated schools? If so, their lack of 'practice' should be brought to the attention of the nat'l office.

 

[David Chan]

....train staff according to the needs and the challenges of their individual resorts and clientelle.

like lack of terrain in the beginner areas, or big gaps between learning areas and easy green runs!

 

[François Pugh]

Hi Suzski. I think there is a problem with starting at intermediate. That assumes they are implementing skills in a proper way which many intermediates are not. This creates a conundrum for the instructor to try and teach something for which the student lacks the proper skill mix.

Chew on this:

I think most would agree that what we call the carved turn is the holy grail of ski turns. What exactly is a carved turn? Believe me, we don't want to go there!
But I will give you my take. Carving is a process. It is the process of converting going straight to going in a circular or arched path. The modern ski is specifically designed to accomplish just that. But it requires a driver, an implementer with mass, to function. And that's the person attached by the binders.

The holiest holy grail is what we call the pure carved turn. Nothing but edge (angulation, inclination) and pressure management (proper alignment, flexion, extension).

The unholiest holy grail (no disrespect intended) is the brushed or skidded carved turn. Initiated by rotary, with the intent/hope of progressing toward the pure carving state. Think of it as an on-ramp to the pure carving highway.

Because of all kinds of factors, most turns are begun with rotary and that is why that kind of initiation is what is predominantly being taught. I highly recommend JF Beaulieu's "How to Develop new movement patterns" video out on YouTube
Rotary based brushing/skidding is a progression into the carving state. Most intermediates have little or no experience of what it really feels like to go end to end in a pure carving mode. The Burke Mtn /Shiffrin "Get over it" video is excellent for understanding and practicing what it takes to initiate a pure carved turn.
With beginners, after focusing on Balance, Balance and Balance, I favor the pure carve approach. After all, I have the student on edge (straight wedge) and all they really need to do is direct pressure through proper BALANCE (easy to say, harder to do) to the inside edge of the new outside ski and soften that pesky inside leg and ride the outside ski in a circular path, letting the ski do the turning. Getting the beginner to experience the circular path carving experience at this level (however minimum) is key to building carving skills IMO. The need to include rotation will be introduced as needed .

So why does the industry basically teach rotary initiated turns first? Might be a good discussion to have.

You bring up some interesting points that I've been thinking about mentioning, but first..
Initiating from a straight line? Or linking from a previous turn? I can see a difference.
Also initiating what type of turn (pure carved or not pure carved, beginning with rotary input or initiated with edge engagement)?

My experienced-based perspective is a little different than what most folk have. I am not an instructor. I did not learn through the typical lesson progression; I took my very first official paid-for ski lesson only after a couple of decades of self-teaching, with the goal of my self-teaching being maximizing speed from the very beginning (I've always loved speed). I did not learn the traditional (not-pure-carved) short radius turn until a lot latter in my skiing life. This reverse progression has made some differences in turn technique really stand out to me.

It seems to me, from the descriptions I've read, that the standard teaching approach is geared to teaching a parallel turn that is not an arc-2-arc pure carved turn, but rather the traditional (not pure-carved) short-radius turn, which is much more suitable for most skiers skiing on advanced terrain where speed control is wanted. It seems the ski instructing world has relegated the pure arc-2-arc turn to a specialty form of skiing for racers and speed freaks. Perhaps that's why most skiers on the hill are not skiing pure arc-2-arc turns, even with shaped skis that are so well suited to same, and why the arc-2-arc pure carved turns seem so elusive to many skiers even though it truly is just as easy to achieve if you know what to do. To be clear, the short radius (not pure carved) turn is just as hard to perfect, and in my mind not a less technically demanding turn.

 

[JESinstr]

Well, I don't agree with this at all. If your objective and intent is to ski steep ungroomed terrain, that carved turn is not going to serve you very well (unless you are Jeremie Heitz and he's a freak of nature). Similarly, if your objective is to win a slalom, then starting that drifted turn with rotary is not going to serve you well. The fact of it is that there a blend of turns that are possible and many have applications depending on intent, terrain, and snow conditions. An expert skier is a versatile skier and will be able to do it all.

Turning beginners loose on the mountain all edge and pressure is a great way to risk injury to the client and others, IMHO. In fact, I believe the primary skills that beginners need to acquire in their first lesson are fore/aft pressure management and rotary. With these, they'll be able to manipulate the skis and use terrain and turn shape to control their speed.

Mike

With all due respect Mike, where did I make any kind of inference to turn beginners loose on the mountain? Where did I address my opinions to steep ungroomed terrain?
The OP said "assume this is basic initiation technique for groomed blue terrain w/packed powder (not particularly icy). I am puzzled at why to jumped to the extreme levels of skiing to make a point.

A major problem with beginners and those who choose to learn through the school of hard knocks is their first inclination is redirection through ski rotation. We would like that to happen from the feet up with separation at the hip joint but we know many will attempt this with the upper body. And without early correction, this will be heavily ingrained in their movement patterns. For a beginner, combining proper balance and proper rotation is a difficult move.

If all they have is fore/aft pressure management and rotary, the only edge angle they are going to get comes from the mountain and most likely inclination. I am really surprised that you believe you can authoritatively control turn shape and speed without the ability to control (and feel) edge engagement.

To quote you, "The fact of it is that there a blend of turns that are possible and many have applications depending on intent, terrain, and snow conditions. An expert skier is a versatile skier and will be able to do it all." I agree.

So your telling me that to really understand and utilize the primary design function of the ski, you are going to have to wait until you become an expert? IMO we have the opportunity to teach the fundamentals of carving from the wedge. If we don't, I believe it is a missed opportunity.

 

[geepers]

So why does the industry basically teach rotary initiated turns first? Might be a good discussion to have.

Because skidding is a very effective way of managing speed.

I'm trying to imagine a green run infested with skiers of limited skill sets attempting speed accumulating pure carving turns.

 

[David Chan]

With beginners, after focusing on Balance, Balance and Balance, I favor the pure carve approach. After all, I have the student on edge (straight wedge) and all they really need to do is direct pressure through proper BALANCE (easy to say, harder to do) to the inside edge of the new outside ski and soften that pesky inside leg and ride the outside ski in a circular path, letting the ski do the turning. Getting the beginner to experience the circular path carving experience at this level (however minimum) is key to building carving skills IMO. The need to include rotation will be introduced as needed .

So why does the industry basically teach rotary initiated turns first? Might be a good discussion to have

All due respect here. I took this quote similar to Mike. I was a bit surprised as well. I agree more focus on good edging skills, and teaching a beginner to experience what edges can do and how they can carve but I also believe that should not be the only focus in a beginner lesson. Too many novice skiers really just want to advance to steeper terrain, and not introducing and teaching rotary skills can lead to disaster.

 

[geepers]

Putting the time in in both sports is critical if one is ever going to get anywhere, but all the time in the world isn't going to get an athlete past "ok" unless he/she has an understanding of how to execute the mechanics properly.

 

[markojp]

Because skidding is a very effective way of managing speed.

I'm trying to imagine a green run infested with skiers of limited skill sets attempting speed accumulating pure carving turns.

You don't need much speed for railroad tracks.

 

[Mike King]

ou have that 100% backwards. The claim was that wcup skiers, including Hirscher, wouldn't place in the top 50 of a Japanese Tech Comp.(Unless they devoted time to train and actually cared). Lorenz, McGlashan have videos of their comps all over the place. You missed the whole point. At least in NZ/Aus seems technique basically heads to the Japanese Tech as a model. Don't know how many others besides Japan. Wouldn't expect it of Austria, France, Italy, Switz, Germany because of racing foundation.

Misunderstood your point, and I agree that no WC athlete would place without serious training. Just like no WC athlete would really be competitive on the Freeride Tour without serious training.

As to Austria, et.al., remember that Richie Berger is Austrian, and while I don't know if he's actually competed in a tech event, there certainly is film out there of his skiing in that style.

Mike

 

[Mike King]

With all due respect Mike, where did I make any kind of inference to turn beginners loose on the mountain? Where did I address my opinions to steep ungroomed terrain?
The OP said "assume this is basic initiation technique for groomed blue terrain w/packed powder (not particularly icy). I am puzzled at why to jumped to the extreme levels of skiing to make a point.

A major problem with beginners and those who choose to learn through the school of hard knocks is their first inclination is redirection through ski rotation. We would like that to happen from the feet up with separation at the hip joint but we know many will attempt this with the upper body. And without early correction, this will be heavily ingrained in their movement patterns. For a beginner, combining proper balance and proper rotation is a difficult move.

If all they have is fore/aft pressure management and rotary, the only edge angle they are going to get comes from the mountain and most likely inclination. I am really surprised that you believe you can authoritatively control turn shape and speed without the ability to control (and feel) edge engagement.

To quote you, "The fact of it is that there a blend of turns that are possible and many have applications depending on intent, terrain, and snow conditions. An expert skier is a versatile skier and will be able to do it all." I agree.

So your telling me that to really understand and utilize the primary design function of the ski, you are going to have to wait until you become an expert? IMO we have the opportunity to teach the fundamentals of carving from the wedge. If we don't, I believe it is a missed opportunity.

Let's return to your original post:

...
Chew on this:

I think most would agree that what we call the carved turn is the holy grail of ski turns. What exactly is a carved turn? Believe me, we don't want to go there!
But I will give you my take. Carving is a process. It is the process of converting going straight to going in a circular or arched path. The modern ski is specifically designed to accomplish just that. But it requires a driver, an implementer with mass, to function. And that's the person attached by the binders.

The holiest holy grail is what we call the pure carved turn. Nothing but edge (angulation, inclination) and pressure management (proper alignment, flexion, extension).

The unholiest holy grail (no disrespect intended) is the brushed or skidded carved turn. Initiated by rotary, with the intent/hope of progressing toward the pure carving state. Think of it as an on-ramp to the pure carving highway.
...

With beginners, after focusing on Balance, Balance and Balance, I favor the pure carve approach. After all, I have the student on edge (straight wedge) and all they really need to do is direct pressure through proper BALANCE (easy to say, harder to do) to the inside edge of the new outside ski and soften that pesky inside leg and ride the outside ski in a circular path, letting the ski do the turning. Getting the beginner to experience the circular path carving experience at this level (however minimum) is key to building carving skills IMO. The need to include rotation will be introduced as needed .

It's not hard to see given the items bolded and italicized from above why I, and others, interpreted your post the way I (we) did.

Mike

 

[David Chan]

You don't need much speed for railroad tracks.

No you don’t, but you also don’t need much pitch to get going scary fast (for a beginner) if all they are doing is putting a ski on its edge, without really having awareness of how to use a complete turn(turning up hill), or skidding to bleed speed.

 

[Mike King]

No you don’t, but you also don’t need much pitch to get going scary fast (for a beginner) if all they are doing is putting a ski on its edge, without really having awareness of how to use a complete turn(turning up hill), or skidding to bleed speed.

Or the ability to build sufficient edge angle to turn in a manner to control their speed. I've seen a lot of unguided missiles in our learning area from students who learned to tip their skis but not how to rotate their legs.

 

[David Chan]

Or the ability to build sufficient edge angle to turn in a manner to control their speed. I've seen a lot of unguided missiles in our learning area from students who learned to tip their skis but not how to rotate their legs.

Yup. I’ve had to scoop up kids in the path of some of said missiles. Even an edge locked wedge skier can get going pretty fast.

 

[JESinstr]

Because skidding is a very effective way of managing speed.

I'm trying to imagine a green run infested with skiers of limited skill sets attempting speed accumulating pure carving turns.

Who said anything about a green run? Do you take beginners and put them on the chair to the top of the beginner slope before you teach them fundamentals and verify their ability to advance?

I am really getting tired of folks voicing their opinions base on stupid and unsafe scenarios.

Skidding is a no-man's/woman's land between straight line travel and circular travel and the remedy to speed control under straight line is bracing. So if the skier knows how to brace which they all naturally and reactively do, without the ability to experience a full carving state, what force do you think they will they default to? And you wonder why many skiers can't complete their turns.

Let's return to your original post:
It's not hard to see given the items bolded and italicized from above why I, and others, interpreted your post the way I (we) did.

Mike

Fair enough, I will, in the future understand that some will choose to react to a couple of words and disregard the total thought being presented.

No need to discuss further.

 

[James]

Because skidding is a very effective way of managing speed.

I'm trying to imagine a green run infested with skiers of limited skill sets attempting speed accumulating pure carving turns.

Here's a slo motion version.

Skidding is a no-man's/woman's land between straight line travel and circular travel and the remedy to speed control under straight line is bracing.

What do you mean by "bracing'?

 

[markojp]

Misunderstood your point, and I agree that no WC athlete would place without serious training. Just like no WC athlete would really be competitive on the Freeride Tour without serious training.

As to Austria, et.al., remember that Richie Berger is Austrian, and while I don't know if he's actually competed in a tech event, there certainly is film out there of his skiing in that style.

Mike

Richard Berger, win, place, show, or not, is highly revered in the Japanese technical ski world.

 

[James]

He's Forerunning last year's Comp.

 

[JESinstr]

All due respect here. I took this quote similar to Mike. I was a bit surprised as well. I agree more focus on good edging skills, and teaching a beginner to experience what edges can do and how they can carve but I also believe that should not be the only focus in a beginner lesson. Too many novice skiers really just want to advance to steeper terrain, and not introducing and teaching rotary skills can lead to disaster.

All good and rational opinions. I am not surprised that you and Mike and others are surprised. I am in no way advocating just one thing here but we shouldn't be opposed to exposing the beginner to experience the ski turning them. After all, this is the primary design feature of the modern shaped ski. If the beginner can experience (in a safe environment) both ends of the turning spectrum wouldn't that be a plus?
Someone back on Epic had the salutation, "you are either carving or you are not" A pretty binary thought but it rings with a lot of truth.

 

[JESinstr]

Here's a slo motion version.


What do you mean by "bracing'?

The straight legged, inclined position that we see many intermediates invoke as the hit the bottom of the so called turn. Sorta like jamming on the brakes in a snow storm! Great analogy.